Desire to learn...

I am trying to learn more about epd's and what is desirable are there any free websites or catalouges i can look at or order to familiar myself with different terminology and common traits?  Im a high school student who is looking at making a career in beef and want to try to make up for all the lost time i wasnt trying to learn this stuff.  I also want to learn more about all different breeds and anything that i might need to know in the beef world. im also very interested in genetics and anything i can get my hands on would be great!

i typed in EPD EXPLANATION in google--- and about a million things popped up, including this one; which I did not read: but scanned to be talking about BW.  http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/animal/az9611.pdf

OK State has a great breeds website: as well...

Most breed associations have explanations of tons of things in resources department-- also a great place to learn about that breed...

It's amazing to me, what a simple google search can yield...  I've typed in a particular bull's registration name/ number before- and it's yielded 10 different hits...

Steerplanet search is just about as good...

BTW: does your high school ag teacher do anything?  These are basic things that most try to cover atleast once a year in certain An Sci classes...

Shorthorn Girl said:

I am trying to learn more about epd's and what is desirable are there any free websites or catalouges i can look at or order to familiar myself with different terminology and common traits?  Im a high school student who is looking at making a career in beef and want to try to make up for all the lost time i wasnt trying to learn this stuff.  I also want to learn more about all different breeds and anything that i might need to know in the beef world. im also very interested in genetics and anything i can get my hands on would be great!

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Might as well pick a breed or two and learn the epd's and what the #'s mean in that breed (look at averages within a breed for specific traits and accuracy levels).  Go to your breed or breeds website and they will have epd's for that breed and definitions.

Here are a couple links
1.  Black ANGUS http://angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx                                                                              http://angus.org/Nce/BreedAverageEPDs.aspx      Lots of info on this site (snoop around)
2.  Shorthorn  http://shorthorn.org/shperformance/epdlookup/epd_shperformance.html                         http://shorthorn.org/shperformance/breedavg/breedavg_shperformance.html

Surely some others on here can give links to some other breeds?

Here is a link to across breed epd adjustment table.  http://shorthorn.org/Images/shperformance/helpfultools/Updated%202011%20Across%20Breed%20Adjustment%20Factors.pdf    This is a very general table.  
EPD's aren't everything but they can be a very useful tool in animal selection!

Cut The BS, not all AG teachers are experts in all areas of agriculture - I know this from first hand experience! ;D

I'll have to put in a word for the Simmental association...they've been pioneers in the development of EPDs going all the way back to EBVs (Estimated Breeding Values) back in the 1970s. Back then we had 5 numbers and they probably weren't very valuable compared to what we have now, but it should tell you how committed the Simmental association and its breeders have been to performance records and calculation.

Visit this link: http://simmental.org/site/index.php/genetic-evaluation/epds
Hover on the highlighted "Genetic Predictions" tab at the top, then click on any of the tabs in the drop down menu that appears. Since ASA has had an open herdbook since the association was formed, they've collected data on many breeds, and all that information is now a part of our multi-breed EPD calculations. Beginning this fall, Simmental and the Red Angus Association will begin calculating EPDs using a common base, and producers will be able to compare EPDs of any Simmental, Red Angus, or other breed animals that are in the database at that time. It's a progressive move that is sure to receive criticism from some producers who probably don't understand the merit or the motivation behind two separate breed associations partnering, but the basic intent is to position both breeds against their leading competition which is obviously black Angus.

Some breeds have EPDs for the same traits and they express the numbers in the same way. Some will have numbers for completely different measurements, and some associations will measure the same trait, but they'll express the measurement differently. For example, birth weight ratios for Angus and Simmental...a lower ratio for Angus is better (meaning lower birth weight), and a higher index for Simmental is better (meaning more acceptable compared to herd average). You'll need to concentrate on one breed at a time at first and try to understand the language and definitions, then it won't be difficult to relate that understanding to how other breeds do things. If you have a favorite breed, start there. If you haven't chosen a breed yet or you're open to multiple breeds, I would encourage you to study the Simmental database just because the association is very progressive in terms of EPD calculation, because they are the only association that speaks in terms of multi-breed EPD calcuation, and because the language is relatively straight forward.

Another basic element you'll need to understand for this to make sense is "Base" calculation. Every breed determines what their base will be for each trait measured, or their breed average.  EPDs are a comparison to that base within that particular breed. In theory, it would make sense if the base for all of these numbers were 0, but that isn't the case. And this is a big reason why you can't compare EPDs between different breeds that are calculated by different associations...they all use a different base for their comparisons. Later this year when Simmental and Red Angus adopt a common base, every animal in those two databases will be on a level playing field in terms of EPDs, and producers will be able to compare the numbers side by side, even for cattle of different breeds. And when I say "for cattle of different breeds" I'm talking about cattle that are in that database...you still won't be able to compare numbers calculated by other breed associations. In case I'm confusing you, the Simmental association has always had an open herd book, meaning you could breed other cattle that were not Simmental to a Simmental bull and register the calf as a %. Most of the American Simmental today are bred up from either other registered breeds or even commercial cattle, so the association's registry database contains a lot of performance calculations for cattle that contain other specified breeds. All that information has helped build our EPD calculations. Now we even have purebred cattle registered as "Foundation" sires and dams to be used in crossbreeding to make registered Simmental offspring, so those Foundation parents, many of which are registered with other breed associations like Angus for example, will help build this calculation as well.

Anther GREAT wealth of information for you would be the MARC website: http://simmental.org/site/index.php/genetic-evaluation/epds

The Meat Animal Research Center in Clay Center, NB has been a HUGE source of information and learning about EPDs and crossbreeding, just to touch on a couple of important topics. It's probably one of the most important facilities in the United States, if not THE most important, considering the research that's been done there and the information it's provided. If you're interested in livestock production and you haven't learned about MARC research yet, it would be worth your time and I think you would find the information very interesting.

Hope this helps! And good luck to you!

nate53 said:

Cut The BS, not all AG teachers are experts in all areas of agriculture - I know this from first hand experience! ;D

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I was very closely tied to an ag teacher-- very lacking-- perhaps as pitiful as any--- at one point in time... 

Truthfully, in todays world E.P.D.'s are too corrupt to put much faith in. They are far too easy to manipulate to have much of any real meaning. They have become marketing tools that some "breeders" ( I use that term loosly) abuse and use to their own benefit. As long as there is money to be made by manipulating the data that is turned, there will be people that will do so for their own benefit. Learn to look for cattle that possess the traits that you are after, not the ones that have papers that say they do. There are way too many people setting at home on their computers "matching E.P.D.'s" to make a marketable animal, when they should be studying their herds and trying to plan matings that will benefit them the most. RW

ROAD WARRIOR said:

Truthfully, in todays world E.P.D.'s are too corrupt to put much faith in. They are far too easy to manipulate to have much of any real meaning. They have become marketing tools that some "breeders" ( I use that term loosly) abuse and use to their own benefit. As long as there is money to be made by manipulating the data that is turned, there will be people that will do so for their own benefit. Learn to look for cattle that possess the traits that you are after, not the ones that have papers that say they do. There are way too many people setting at home on their computers "matching E.P.D.'s" to make a marketable animal, when they should be studying their herds and trying to plan matings that will benefit them the most. RW

Click to expand...

If you want to breed cattle, you really can't do just do it on paper, and you really can't do it without the paper. EPDs are a tool, just like visual appraisal, and like any tool, you have to know how to use it for it to be any benefit. Yes, there will always be people who will try to outsmart the system, and there will always be skeptics, too cynical for their own good. When an AI sire has highly accurate numbers because he has hundreds of progeny scattered all over the country in dozens of different herds, I think most of us accept and believe EPDs to be relatively meaningful and useful.

leanbeef said:

ROAD WARRIOR said:

Truthfully, in todays world E.P.D.'s are too corrupt to put much faith in. They are far too easy to manipulate to have much of any real meaning. They have become marketing tools that some "breeders" ( I use that term loosly) abuse and use to their own benefit. As long as there is money to be made by manipulating the data that is turned, there will be people that will do so for their own benefit. Learn to look for cattle that possess the traits that you are after, not the ones that have papers that say they do. There are way too many people setting at home on their computers "matching E.P.D.'s" to make a marketable animal, when they should be studying their herds and trying to plan matings that will benefit them the most. RW

Click to expand...

If you want to breed cattle, you really can't do just do it on paper, and you really can't do it without the paper. EPDs are a tool, just like visual appraisal, and like any tool, you have to know how to use it for it to be any benefit. Yes, there will always be people who will try to outsmart the system, and there will always be skeptics, too cynical for their own good. When an AI sire has highly accurate numbers because he has hundreds of progeny scattered all over the country in dozens of different herds, I think most of us accept and believe EPDs to be relatively meaningful and useful.

Click to expand...

In some breeds this may have some truth to it. The high accuracy E.P.D's are the key to manipulating the system, I know people that "control" contemporary groups to build their own sires numbers. Let's face the reality of the system, no one polices it so anyone can turn in about whatever figures they want too. A little story about our breed, for several years a "reputation" herd had several trait leaders for B.W. EPD. He never owned a scale, tape or any other kind of a weight measuring devise. He would drive around the pasture, catch the calves that were not too old for him to run down and "eye ball" them. Anything that he couldn't catch he would tag at weaning time. Saw this with my own two eyes, no hearsay. Information is only as good as the people who turn it in. This type of data turned in only corrupts all of the rest of the data that may be factual. I wonder how we ever bred decent cattle before we paid someone with a computer to tell us which ones are good? RW

Shorthorn girl, there are a lot of us on here trying to learn. Learning is a life long process. Breeding cattle is both an art and a science. I really don't know much about Shorthorn epds. Other breeds that have mountains of data are Red Angus, Angus, and Simmental. There is a lot of truth in what has been posted here.

I would like to add some of my thoughts about accuracies. If 550 of a sire's progeny are registered, and 500 of them come from one herd, I don't consider that to be a high accuracy situation. Some of the best cattle advice I was given was about sire selection. The advice was not to get too fired up about a sire unless he has been used successfully in many herds. I think we need to look at epds in the same light. High accuracies from several herds before we decide this or that bull is what we will build our herd from.

One thing that troubled me for a long time was the fact that I tended to like animals that necessarily did not have high epds. With experience, you have to find your preferences, but Angus cattle with a yearling epd of 100 are too big for me. Extreme epds lead to extreme cattle.

On the flip side, most breeders do use a handful of unproven bulls (low epd accuracies) each year. Some try to use them on females that have high accuracies or well known progeny. This is nothing except marketing. You have to have some calves from the "bull that won Denver, displayed at Denver, sold well, etc." when the buyer asks if you have any. In my experience, the buyers that come and look usually buy one of bulls out of the older, proven bulls (high accuracies and we actually know what kind of cow he works on) when looking at them head to head.

One of the best quotes I ever heard was from the Tennesee women's basketball coach, Pat Summit. She said, "that she knew she had made it as a coach when she hired Tex Winter (inventor of the triangle offense, some slap name Jordan made it look good), because she had actually hired someone smarter than her."  I try to listen to and be around people that know more than I do every chance I get.

ROAD WARRIOR said:

leanbeef said:

ROAD WARRIOR said:

Truthfully, in todays world E.P.D.'s are too corrupt to put much faith in. They are far too easy to manipulate to have much of any real meaning. They have become marketing tools that some "breeders" ( I use that term loosly) abuse and use to their own benefit. As long as there is money to be made by manipulating the data that is turned, there will be people that will do so for their own benefit. Learn to look for cattle that possess the traits that you are after, not the ones that have papers that say they do. There are way too many people setting at home on their computers "matching E.P.D.'s" to make a marketable animal, when they should be studying their herds and trying to plan matings that will benefit them the most. RW

Click to expand...

If you want to breed cattle, you really can't do just do it on paper, and you really can't do it without the paper. EPDs are a tool, just like visual appraisal, and like any tool, you have to know how to use it for it to be any benefit. Yes, there will always be people who will try to outsmart the system, and there will always be skeptics, too cynical for their own good. When an AI sire has highly accurate numbers because he has hundreds of progeny scattered all over the country in dozens of different herds, I think most of us accept and believe EPDs to be relatively meaningful and useful.

Click to expand...

In some breeds this may have some truth to it. The high accuracy E.P.D's are the key to manipulating the system, I know people that "control" contemporary groups to build their own sires numbers. Let's face the reality of the system, no one polices it so anyone can turn in about whatever figures they want too. A little story about our breed, for several years a "reputation" herd had several trait leaders for B.W. EPD. He never owned a scale, tape or any other kind of a weight measuring devise. He would drive around the pasture, catch the calves that were not too old for him to run down and "eye ball" them. Anything that he couldn't catch he would tag at weaning time. Saw this with my own two eyes, no hearsay. Information is only as good as the people who turn it in. This type of data turned in only corrupts all of the rest of the data that may be factual. I wonder how we ever bred decent cattle before we paid someone with a computer to tell us which ones are good? RW

Click to expand...

Well, a situation like that would definitely affect my confidence in that man's breeding program and my attitude towards his cattle, but I wouldn't let it change my perception of cattle breeding or cattle breeders as a whole. I believe most of us (breeders) are genuinely interested to know which bulls work and which bulls don't. That's how we make progress not only in our own programs, but within the industry over long periods of time. Before we had EPDs, we used the tools that were available, and visual appraisal was important because we didn't have a lot of information to support that. Having more factors to consider doesn't make visual appraisal any less important...it just gives us more things to consider, and it should give us more confidence in the decisions we're able to make. It would take a real politician of a cattle breeder like the guy you mentioned to stay in business for a long period of time and to have much influence in a breed of cattle. I think he would be an exception...not the rule. And I believe in a matter of time, his cattle would fall through the cracks if they didn't live up to the numbers he was making up for them. You just can't fool everybody in the business.

leanbeef said:

ROAD WARRIOR said:

leanbeef said:

ROAD WARRIOR said:

Truthfully, in todays world E.P.D.'s are too corrupt to put much faith in. They are far too easy to manipulate to have much of any real meaning. They have become marketing tools that some "breeders" ( I use that term loosly) abuse and use to their own benefit. As long as there is money to be made by manipulating the data that is turned, there will be people that will do so for their own benefit. Learn to look for cattle that possess the traits that you are after, not the ones that have papers that say they do. There are way too many people setting at home on their computers "matching E.P.D.'s" to make a marketable animal, when they should be studying their herds and trying to plan matings that will benefit them the most. RW

Click to expand...

If you want to breed cattle, you really can't do just do it on paper, and you really can't do it without the paper. EPDs are a tool, just like visual appraisal, and like any tool, you have to know how to use it for it to be any benefit. Yes, there will always be people who will try to outsmart the system, and there will always be skeptics, too cynical for their own good. When an AI sire has highly accurate numbers because he has hundreds of progeny scattered all over the country in dozens of different herds, I think most of us accept and believe EPDs to be relatively meaningful and useful.

Click to expand...

In some breeds this may have some truth to it. The high accuracy E.P.D's are the key to manipulating the system, I know people that "control" contemporary groups to build their own sires numbers. Let's face the reality of the system, no one polices it so anyone can turn in about whatever figures they want too. A little story about our breed, for several years a "reputation" herd had several trait leaders for B.W. EPD. He never owned a scale, tape or any other kind of a weight measuring devise. He would drive around the pasture, catch the calves that were not too old for him to run down and "eye ball" them. Anything that he couldn't catch he would tag at weaning time. Saw this with my own two eyes, no hearsay. Information is only as good as the people who turn it in. This type of data turned in only corrupts all of the rest of the data that may be factual. I wonder how we ever bred decent cattle before we paid someone with a computer to tell us which ones are good? RW

Click to expand...

Well, a situation like that would definitely affect my confidence in that man's breeding program and my attitude towards his cattle, but I wouldn't let it change my perception of cattle breeding or cattle breeders as a whole. I believe most of us (breeders) are genuinely interested to know which bulls work and which bulls don't. That's how we make progress not only in our own programs, but within the industry over long periods of time. Before we had EPDs, we used the tools that were available, and visual appraisal was important because we didn't have a lot of information to support that. Having more factors to consider doesn't make visual appraisal any less important...it just gives us more things to consider, and it should give us more confidence in the decisions we're able to make. It would take a real politician of a cattle breeder like the guy you mentioned to stay in business for a long period of time and to have much influence in a breed of cattle. I think he would be an exception...not the rule. And I believe in a matter of time, his cattle would fall through the cracks if they didn't live up to the numbers he was making up for them. You just can't fool everybody in the business.

Click to expand...

His herd stayed in business untill his death and many of the genetics are still pretty sought after. This was just one example. Another is a very prominent breeder that the association caught manipulating the contemporary groups and turning in corrupt data. For a while they talked about banning them from the association but like so many times, the longer it drug on the less happened. Today they still have one of the top bull sales in the country and are still members in good standing in the association. When you've been around a breed for 30+ years you see alot of things go on that probably shouldn't. Incedently, when I quit paying much attention to EPD's and went to breeding cattle that were good and functional and suited my goals, my EPD's went up. Go figure....RW

LeanBeef - Agree with pretty much everything .

RW- I see what you are saying.  A person really needs to look and know the program they are buying bulls, females from instead of just relying on #'s or looks of the cattle.  What I want is animals that look good in real life and have excellent #'s (actual and epd's) - yes they do exist.  The two programs we have used in the Black Angus breed over the past several years have produced and performed nearly identical to how their epd's suggest they should perform (which is why it's sad that a breeder that knows good functional cattle such as yourself is demoting the value of epd's  :'( .  Remember actual (weights and measurements) and actual looks of animals can be quite misleading.  How many great heifers or great bulls look outstanding and then just don't measure up?  The epd's in your breed won't ever get better if good breeders aren't involved with them.

Good looking functional cattle, with excellent numbers, from a personally known program that pays attention to details and cares about retaining the current and acquiring new customers long into the future - is a great place to start!

I wonder how we ever bred decent cattle before we paid someone with a computer to tell us which ones are good? RW

Now there's a great question!! Awesome Stuart.

 

CAB said:

I wonder how we ever bred decent cattle before we paid someone with a computer to tell us which ones are good? RW

Now there's a great question!! Awesome Stuart.

 

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From the ground up, back to front??? <rock>