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Author Topic: odds on color!  (Read 7051 times)

Offline red

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 12:54:52 PM »
wow! You'd almost wonder if the mom had some explaining to do at first but looking at the parents you can see they are a bi-racial couple. That is really unusual!

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Offline fluffer

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 01:00:20 PM »
we had a set of twins born out of 2 black parents. One was red & the other black. How's that for weird?

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Try having 2 sets of twins in 1 day both cows having 1 red and 1 black calf, and it being April 1st.  Hubby didn't believe me! 1 set was from 2 black parents and 1 set was from a red cow and black bull.  I bet that NEVER happens again

I think it is those kind of neat moments that keep us from getting board  ;)

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Offline itk

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 01:09:57 PM »
Here's one that will throw you for a loop....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=377839&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

I guess it's possible for an F2 to take on the characteristics of the purebred grandparent...


Was it the twins or the ages of the parents that were supposed to throw us for a loop. I'm surprised the local DA didn't bring statutory rape charges against the mom.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 01:20:09 PM »
Here's one that will throw you for a loop....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=377839&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

I guess it's possible for an F2 to take on the characteristics of the purebred grandparent...


Was it the twins or the ages of the parents that were supposed to throw us for a loop. I'm surprised the local DA didn't bring statutory rape charges against the mom.


This was england, I'm not sure what the law is there.  In most states in America I believe it is not illegal for a 19yr old to be with a 17 yr old though.

Anyways the twins are what was supposed to throw you for a loop.  It just shows us a little bit about the unpredictability of genetics.....
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Offline Zdog

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 06:11:27 PM »
Hmm, that is just one of those wierd things  ;)

I had a double black cow bred to a black bull and she had a set of red twin heifer calves.  One is a dark red and one is a light red.

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JUst this year i had a red roan calf out of a blue roan and a pure white bull. We don't own a clean up so it was legit. ;)

Offline Chap

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 08:07:56 AM »
the black+black=red happens alot, Bb x Bb can give you BB, Bb, bB and bb, read as Black, Black, Black and Red.  1 homozygous black, 2 heterozygous black and 1 homozygous Red.  The Blue Roan x White can certainly give you Red roan.  since Blue Roan is typically a combo of Black x Shorty, the shorty side of the equation will contribute the red gene (no black at all) and the White is a shorty as well.  Might need more clarification on the color probablilites of shorty genetics.  White, Red, Red and White, Roan, etc.  is there a dominance in Shorthorns?  or simply an issue of co-dominance?

Offline OH Breeder

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 11:43:19 AM »
the black+black=red happens alot, Bb x Bb can give you BB, Bb, bB and bb, read as Black, Black, Black and Red.  1 homozygous black, 2 heterozygous black and 1 homozygous Red.  The Blue Roan x White can certainly give you Red roan.  since Blue Roan is typically a combo of Black x Shorty, the shorty side of the equation will contribute the red gene (no black at all) and the White is a shorty as well.  Might need more clarification on the color probablilites of shorty genetics.  White, Red, Red and White, Roan, etc.  is there a dominance in Shorthorns?  or simply an issue of co-dominance?
A year ago I did look at the roan color pattern. It does not fall into the RW or Rw category. It is different and the alle is differen. Have to look that one up again. Lots of folks think they have a Red and White but if the hairs are mixed anywhere meaning White hairs coming from area of red they are truely a roan.
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Offline Chap

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2008, 11:22:45 AM »
bump, I was hoping someone would clarify the color combos on shorties.  red, white, roan, red and white and how do the matings result?

Offline SRU

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2008, 11:47:56 AM »
Ok so you have a whole bunch of different genes at work here, which is going to make a lot of possibilities.  I'll try to explain by breaking things down into the separate genes.  Remember though, rather than the colour you see being inherited as one big chunk, it is like layers, where you start with a base colour (either red or black, or occassionally that weird 'brown'), then each type of modifier adds another layer on top.

Also, remember the basics that each animal has 2 copies of each gene, which can say the same thing (homozygous) or different things (heterozygous).  When an animal is bred, they only pass on one of the genes - which one is 50/50 chances just like a coin toss - and so each animal has one of the two genes from each parent.

1.   Base colour.  (Note I'm going to leave out that "weird brown" because it's not all that common in our beef breeds and would just make life confusing here.  So a cow is going to start off genetically with either a red or black base.  Black is dominant which means either two (homozygous) or one (heterozygous) copy of the black gene will make the cow appear black.  On the other hand, to appear red, they must  have two copies of the red gene (homozygous recessive).  The implications of this is that there is red animals can only pass on red genes, but black animals, if homozygous, can still pass on red genes and have red calves.

In your case, because the cow is smoky, we know she has one copy of the black gene, and the other copy is quite likely red coming from PB charolais (I believe most of them are red based under their white). 

2.  Dilution is what makes Chars white.  It's only partially dominant, so that in a double dose, the animal is diluted all the way to white, while in a single dose, they are only partly diluted, to smoky or tan (smoky for the black based animals, tan for the red based ones).  So your cow has a single copy of the dilution gene, which is obvious both by her visual colour and her PB Char parent.  This means she will pass on the dilution 50% of the time, and 50% of the time not.

3.  The rat tailed defect, as far as I know, requires the cooperation of different genes together.  The animal must be black based, diluted (with either the char or simmental dilution), and also get the actual rat tailed gene.  Something to that effect.  The fact that you had full sibs with and without it illustrates that 50/50 chance element.  Has the cow ever had a rat tailed calf before?  If not, it's possible she just doesn't have the rat tailed gene, but you can't tell for sure until she has one, so still not a bad idea to plan wisely.

4.  The roan gene in shorthorns.  This gene is codominant which means that the heterozygous has a different look than the two homozygotes.  So unlike in the chars, where white comes from a dilution, in shorthorns whites are actually just homozygous for roan.  Solid reds are homozygous for "not roan" and roans have one copy of each gene.    So when you breed a solid colour to a white shorthorn (such as Sin city) you get 100% roans, as they get the roan from the white parent and the non-roan from the solid parent.



So put that all together and geez what a soup.  But I'll try to summarize the possibillities

Smoke cow X White shorthorn =
   Blue Roan
   Smoky roan (not sure if that's an official term, but that's what I'm saying :P)
   Red roan
   Tan roan

Smoke cow X Red Shorthorn =
  Black
  Smoky
  Red
  Tan

Smoke Cow X Roan shorthorn  =
  All 8 given in above 2



About the rat tail....your best bet would be to stick to red based bulls, so that you maintain that 50% chance of a red based calf,  which can't have the defect.


http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/shorthorn-experts-if-i-breed-a-smoke-cow-to-a-horn-what-color(s)-can-i-expect/msg10422/#msg10422
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Offline M.R.A.

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2008, 02:25:38 PM »
The Roan patterns, and mixed colors are one of the things that I have always liked about the Shorthorn Breed. 

Shorthorns can sometimes be like a "Box of Chocolates", you never know what you might get......... (lol)

I've got two blue roans right now, and have thought about mating them to another breed just to see if I can get some type of crazy color.  I like the idea of maybe one day getting a Charolais or a smoke colored animal and trying to produce a Smokey Roan animal by mating it to a white Shorthorn.   

I also like the Purple Roan Shorthorns.  I remember back when I was a boy first seeing a purple roan shorthorn cow.  She was a daughter of a Dual Purpose Shorthorn bull that was called, "Columbus".  He was sired by a bull called, "Scottshill Major Clark".  It seems that a lot of Scottshill Major Clark's sons such as Columbus were known to produce Purple Roan animals.  I've also noticed that a lot of progeny from Trump has been known to throw off the same type of color.   

Sorry if I kind of got off topic.   I kind of ramble from time to time............ ;D
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 02:27:55 PM by Shorthorn_Junkie »

Offline oakbar

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2008, 08:47:57 PM »
Ain't Genetics fun!!!!   

We got calves colored in ways we weren't really expecting this year. Things like completely black calves out of a roan and a black bull, a black bull and a black cow with a white bag producing a brockle faced heifer with white slashes and spots on her legs and body.  Obviously the genes were there, but the probability of them coming together in the ways we're seeing this year wasn't very high!!  Sure interesting to look at though!!
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Offline Jill

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 05:17:25 PM »
What is amazing to me is the different colors of black.  Our new herd bull puts the deepest just black color in a calf I have ever seen, they are just beautiful!

Offline red

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Re: odds on color!
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 06:31:23 PM »
What is amazing to me is the different colors of black.  Our new herd bull puts the deepest just black color in a calf I have ever seen, they are just beautiful!

I know what you mean Jill. some of ours are solid black, other have a redish tinge to it & then there's my brown heifer! I think w/ the black nose & her head darkening up she'll change.

Red
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