Quantcast Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"

Sponsors







Author Topic: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"  (Read 2187 times)

Offline Heritage Shorthorn

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma 1
    • View Profile
Dr. Bert Moore has written an article called "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds" that is now available on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website:  www.heritageshorthorn.org.  Dr. Moore is currently co-authoring a Shorthorn history book.

Offline Steve123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma 6
    • View Profile
Dr. Moore left out Salers.

England
Country of the United Kingdom
Devons, Durhams (Shorthorns) and West Highland cattle were imported into the Salers area in the mid 19th Century with the intention of improving the breed. ... A statue honouring his work stands in the middle of the small medieval town of Salers from which the breed takes its name.

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4912
  • Karma 135
    • View Profile
Salers are what made The Hilltop Lancers-which then seemed to work very well on appendix Shorthorns with a little fullblood Maine in them

Offline oakview

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma 70
    • View Profile
Which Lancer that anybody heard of had Salers in him?  457?  472?  Jim Scott and Wayne McKee had a few great Hilltop bred Lancer show heifers, Jim had a son of him, too, that was a full sib to one of those show heifers and none of them showed any thing close to Salers influence.  I can't remember one that even remotely resembled a Salers.  It may have happened later, but those early ones sure didn't look like anything other than the dual purpose breeding that was on their pedigree.

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4912
  • Karma 135
    • View Profile
This Countess would be the best known example back in the day-along with Deertrail Awesomes dam  -it showed clearly to me in Awesomes jaw so I asked about it Deertrail Countess-
  https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3795139&member_id=           Ed, Lawrence, and Bucholtz, all told me what was up at Guys because they saw the cattle  and how crazy the Guys got towards the end of their career When Lawrence passed away Bucholtz told me briefly of the last trip he and Ed made up there-Guys  drugged up son made the mistake of threatening Ed Grathwohl,who was one of the toughest people either of us had ever met. O0

Offline Okotoks

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3019
  • Karma 121
  • Diamond Belvedere 29B
    • View Profile
    • Diamond Shorthorns
This Countess would be the best known example back in the day-along with Deertrail Awesomes dam  -it showed clearly to me in Awesomes jaw so I asked about it Deertrail Countess-
  https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3795139&member_id=           Ed, Lawrence, and Bucholtz, all told me what was up at Guys because they saw the cattle  and how crazy the Guys got towards the end of their career When Lawrence passed away Bucholtz told me briefly of the last trip he and Ed made up there-Guys  drugged up son made the mistake of threatening Ed Grathwohl,who was one of the toughest people either of us had ever met. O0
It shows Countess's grand sire as being the Maine bull Dollar 2nd. Is that what you are referring to or was there more outside blood not shown?

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4912
  • Karma 135
    • View Profile
Both=which was common in those days-If you look at the owners of that particular lancer bull-the other was Harold Hoskins who basically said the same thing about the SALERS deal with SOME OF THE  the Hilltop cattle-HE used Maines even before the Irish Cattle showed, then later a White bull who was attributed to "Great White Hope"" or something but was actually a Charolais and Simms-for years-There wasnt a straight Shorthorn on his place since probably the late 60s very early 70s- "BUT -the maine dual thing worked"-according to him-THEY WERE GREAT LOOKING BIG GROWTH  CATTLE-Alot of people knew it who didnt want scraggly hardoing dairy rats and anything he would sell  went to Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado etc for many years.Gary Bucholtz was a county agent-youth guy and took many of them for kids to show back then-and later dispersed the herd to Texas not long before Harold passed. O0
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:23:30 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline oakview

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma 70
    • View Profile
I can't see any pedigree connection with the Countess/Dollar II cow and Hilltop breeding.  The Salers cattle I saw in that era were somewhat sloppy fronted, low behind the shoulder, very unlevel in their toplines, and had poor dispositions.  Not to mention they were hard calving.  Millvale Shorthorns still uses Lancer 457.  Gene and Roberta showed several daughters of him a few years ago in Louisville.  They looked as close to a straight dual purpose animal as could be.  I never saw any evidence of Salers traits in the Hilltop cattle I saw back then.  Perhaps the 3rd generation Lancers had something else in them, I don't know, but they were pretty much irrelevant around here by then.  Lots of rumors about beef cattle with dual pedigrees, other breeds being "secretly" used, the list goes on and on.  After the Lancers had run their course, we sold Bar-D Belle's Winner to Carvin and Gerald.  He was a straight dual son of Lago's Cache Winner.  The Guys used him for several years and I guarantee you he had absolutely no resemblance to a Salers.  I can honestly tell you he was the worst bull I ever used.  If they used him very much, maybe that's why they needed to bring in some outside blood.   

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4912
  • Karma 135
    • View Profile
The Dollar 2 is HER DAMS SIRE -DEERTRAIL COUNTESS WAS SIRED by a Lancer who was "a little bit different type"that Ed Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins bought from the back pasture back in the 80s-You are not going to deduce the total picture  looking at the pedigrees anyhow-especially from Hoskins cattle.-I owned Countess and Hearthrob-and several other daughters of Countess-and saw some of the various gyrations of the Lancer stuff on 4-5 different farms in the early 90s around there-Ill go by what the people told me that had them in that area and the reasons they gave me for the mix which wasnt the only thing they were doing but did produce some national show winners-And by how they ended up looking-which was substantially different from the skinny dual cattle be it Hilltops or the Ayatollah junk-But so were the Marvel cows that were very easy fleshing and stout-Awesomes dam was the polar opposite of the dual description-and was basically dual with Mark 4 who rolled pretty good pins to hooks-She didnt at all-But add Enticer and Awesome became  a huge rollercoaster O0
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 10:36:51 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline oakview

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma 70
    • View Profile
Like I said, there is no Lancer connection in the Countess/Dollar II cow.  I can see her daughter has Lancer in there, a generation or 2 away from the original.  As mentioned, his original descendants looked the dual part.  A few generations down the line if something else was added, they probably did look different.  They just didn't have much of an impact around here.  I still don't know why anyone would add Salers, though, if they were looking for show cattle.

Offline aj

  • National Champion Poster
  • **********
  • Posts: 6240
  • Karma 175
    • View Profile
My first thought is to question the Saler's deal. Didn't the first Saler's show up in Denver around 83? Werth's bought into the Saler's bull Kardinal.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4912
  • Karma 135
    • View Profile
Salers came to the US in 1971-Deertrail Countess was born in 1985-Her dam was a Dollar Second Cow-Her sire was Hilltop was Hilltop 4150 Lancer 1150  born in 1981-A bull purchased by ED Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins. THE LANCER WAS BRED TO THE DOLLAR SECOND COW-THE CONNECTION WAS:DEERTRAIL COUNTESS THE RESULTING CALF OF THAT MATING, HOW HARD IS THAT TO COMPREHEND?There were several other good Lancer females at Deertrail whose descendents sold and showed-Deertrail Countess was calf champ at Denver-and had 16 calves. One was: Iroc-(who went back to lancers on both sides) and did alot of winning out west for U bar U . He was very moderate and stout, and looked nothing like a Hilltop deal-, Countess Hearthrob , who sold for $8800 or something at Denver and ended up in Va-And several others.APPARANTLY THIS BREEDING WORKED IN THE DAY IN KANSAS AS STATED- IOWA IS ANOTHER STATE- There were a number of cows sired by Lancer at Hoskins who had steers go to Texas etc-They were out of  of cows that went to maines Irish and Charolais I saw maybe 10 of them-and they looked like big long cattle-high gutted big butts and goosey dual looking fronts The Lancers females were registered to whatever and  had been bred to mainexIrish bulls (Powers Improver etc). Char Cross bulls  with the resulting calves registered as whatever plus GR Exclusive,AF PRIMO ,Sunset Classic Drive, Crocadile Dundee (to moderate them) Equitys Image and "others:- O0
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 08:55:47 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline Okotoks

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3019
  • Karma 121
  • Diamond Belvedere 29B
    • View Profile
    • Diamond Shorthorns
Salers came to the US in 1971-Deertrail Countess was born in 1985-Her dam was a Dollar Second Cow-Her sire was Hilltop was Hi Lolltop 4150 Lancer 1150  born in 1981-A bull purchased by ED Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins. THE LANCER WAS BRED TO THE DOLLAR SECOND COW-THE CONNECTION WAS:DEERTRAIL COUNTESS THE RESULTING CALF OF THAT MATING, HOW HARD IS THAT TO COMPREHEND?There were several other good Lancer females at Deertrail whose descendents sold and showed-Deertrail Countess was calf champ at Denver-and had 16 calves. One was: Iroc-(who went back to lancers on both sides) and did alot of winning out west for U bar U . He was very moderate and stout, and looked nothing like a Hilltop deal-, Countess Hearthrob , who sold for $8800 or something at Denver and ended up in Va-And several others.APPARANTLY THIS BREEDING WORKED IN THE DAY IN KANSAS AS STATED- IOWA IS ANOTHER STATE- There were a number of cows sired by Lancer at Hoskins who had steers go to Texas etc-They were out of  of cows that went to maines Irish and Charolais I saw maybe 10 of them-and they looked like big long cattle-high gutted big butts and goosey dual looking fronts The Lancers females were registered to whatever and  had been bred to mainexIrish bulls (Powers Improver etc). Char Cross bulls  with the resulting calves registered as whatever plus GR Exclusive,AF PRIMO ,Sunset Classic Drive, Crocadile Dundee (to moderate them) Equitys Image and "others:- O0
I saw some Lancer bulls at the 1980 World Congress in Calgary  they were long dual purpose looking bulls obviously before any outside blood. I think most breeders with integrity find the whole scenario disturbing. The fact breeders did this and then other breeders knowingly went along and used animals they evidently knew were far from pure or what the papers said. I'm very thankful that now in the CSA every sire, AI or walking has to be DNA verified....it must be very frustrating for the dishonest breeders..
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:12:10 PM by Okotoks »

Offline beebe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
  • Karma 8
    • View Profile
Well said.

Offline Duncraggan

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
  • Karma 26
    • View Profile
There is no "other influence" on my property but I think DNA verifying my cattle has been a process that makes me carry on sleeping easily every night.
I must profess that what I thought was a late AI calf turned out to be an early natural calf from the pick-up bull this year!
My herd is now >75% DNA verified and it is now relatively cost effective to test the 'keepers'!

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
15 Replies
5647 Views
Last post April 17, 2007, 08:20:30 AM
by ELBEE
12 Replies
8243 Views
Last post September 29, 2010, 07:53:50 AM
by BTRancher
1 Replies
3387 Views
Last post January 13, 2015, 09:22:25 PM
by Sizzler14
0 Replies
2565 Views
Last post February 09, 2011, 10:20:12 AM
by donorheaven
21 Replies
10474 Views
Last post November 15, 2012, 05:05:25 PM
by frostback

Powered by EzPortal