Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: Heritage Shorthorn on July 09, 2019, 02:41:53 PM

Title: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on July 09, 2019, 02:41:53 PM
Dr. Bert Moore has written an article called "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds" that is now available on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website:  www.heritageshorthorn.org (http://www.heritageshorthorn.org).  Dr. Moore is currently co-authoring a Shorthorn history book.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Steve123 on July 10, 2019, 08:13:25 AM
Dr. Moore left out Salers.

England
Country of the United Kingdom
Devons, Durhams (Shorthorns) and West Highland cattle were imported into the Salers area in the mid 19th Century with the intention of improving the breed. ... A statue honouring his work stands in the middle of the small medieval town of Salers from which the breed takes its name.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 10, 2019, 05:10:37 PM
Salers are what made The Hilltop Lancers-which then seemed to work very well on appendix Shorthorns with a little fullblood Maine in them
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 11, 2019, 09:27:41 AM
Which Lancer that anybody heard of had Salers in him?  457?  472?  Jim Scott and Wayne McKee had a few great Hilltop bred Lancer show heifers, Jim had a son of him, too, that was a full sib to one of those show heifers and none of them showed any thing close to Salers influence.  I can't remember one that even remotely resembled a Salers.  It may have happened later, but those early ones sure didn't look like anything other than the dual purpose breeding that was on their pedigree.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 11, 2019, 03:08:17 PM
This Countess would be the best known example back in the day-along with Deertrail Awesomes dam  -it showed clearly to me in Awesomes jaw so I asked about it Deertrail Countess-
  https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3795139&member_id=           Ed, Lawrence, and Bucholtz, all told me what was up at Guys because they saw the cattle  and how crazy the Guys got towards the end of their career When Lawrence passed away Bucholtz told me briefly of the last trip he and Ed made up there-Guys  drugged up son made the mistake of threatening Ed Grathwohl,who was one of the toughest people either of us had ever met. O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Okotoks on July 11, 2019, 03:59:40 PM
This Countess would be the best known example back in the day-along with Deertrail Awesomes dam  -it showed clearly to me in Awesomes jaw so I asked about it Deertrail Countess-
  https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3795139&member_id=           Ed, Lawrence, and Bucholtz, all told me what was up at Guys because they saw the cattle  and how crazy the Guys got towards the end of their career When Lawrence passed away Bucholtz told me briefly of the last trip he and Ed made up there-Guys  drugged up son made the mistake of threatening Ed Grathwohl,who was one of the toughest people either of us had ever met. O0
It shows Countess's grand sire as being the Maine bull Dollar 2nd. Is that what you are referring to or was there more outside blood not shown?
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 11, 2019, 11:21:45 PM
Both=which was common in those days-If you look at the owners of that particular lancer bull-the other was Harold Hoskins who basically said the same thing about the SALERS deal with SOME OF THE  the Hilltop cattle-HE used Maines even before the Irish Cattle showed, then later a White bull who was attributed to "Great White Hope"" or something but was actually a Charolais and Simms-for years-There wasnt a straight Shorthorn on his place since probably the late 60s very early 70s- "BUT -the maine dual thing worked"-according to him-THEY WERE GREAT LOOKING BIG GROWTH  CATTLE-Alot of people knew it who didnt want scraggly hardoing dairy rats and anything he would sell  went to Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado etc for many years.Gary Bucholtz was a county agent-youth guy and took many of them for kids to show back then-and later dispersed the herd to Texas not long before Harold passed. O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 12, 2019, 09:30:26 AM
I can't see any pedigree connection with the Countess/Dollar II cow and Hilltop breeding.  The Salers cattle I saw in that era were somewhat sloppy fronted, low behind the shoulder, very unlevel in their toplines, and had poor dispositions.  Not to mention they were hard calving.  Millvale Shorthorns still uses Lancer 457.  Gene and Roberta showed several daughters of him a few years ago in Louisville.  They looked as close to a straight dual purpose animal as could be.  I never saw any evidence of Salers traits in the Hilltop cattle I saw back then.  Perhaps the 3rd generation Lancers had something else in them, I don't know, but they were pretty much irrelevant around here by then.  Lots of rumors about beef cattle with dual pedigrees, other breeds being "secretly" used, the list goes on and on.  After the Lancers had run their course, we sold Bar-D Belle's Winner to Carvin and Gerald.  He was a straight dual son of Lago's Cache Winner.  The Guys used him for several years and I guarantee you he had absolutely no resemblance to a Salers.  I can honestly tell you he was the worst bull I ever used.  If they used him very much, maybe that's why they needed to bring in some outside blood.   
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 12, 2019, 10:31:18 AM
The Dollar 2 is HER DAMS SIRE -DEERTRAIL COUNTESS WAS SIRED by a Lancer who was "a little bit different type"that Ed Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins bought from the back pasture back in the 80s-You are not going to deduce the total picture  looking at the pedigrees anyhow-especially from Hoskins cattle.-I owned Countess and Hearthrob-and several other daughters of Countess-and saw some of the various gyrations of the Lancer stuff on 4-5 different farms in the early 90s around there-Ill go by what the people told me that had them in that area and the reasons they gave me for the mix which wasnt the only thing they were doing but did produce some national show winners-And by how they ended up looking-which was substantially different from the skinny dual cattle be it Hilltops or the Ayatollah junk-But so were the Marvel cows that were very easy fleshing and stout-Awesomes dam was the polar opposite of the dual description-and was basically dual with Mark 4 who rolled pretty good pins to hooks-She didnt at all-But add Enticer and Awesome became  a huge rollercoaster O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 12, 2019, 11:28:50 AM
Like I said, there is no Lancer connection in the Countess/Dollar II cow.  I can see her daughter has Lancer in there, a generation or 2 away from the original.  As mentioned, his original descendants looked the dual part.  A few generations down the line if something else was added, they probably did look different.  They just didn't have much of an impact around here.  I still don't know why anyone would add Salers, though, if they were looking for show cattle.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: aj on July 12, 2019, 06:07:35 PM
My first thought is to question the Saler's deal. Didn't the first Saler's show up in Denver around 83? Werth's bought into the Saler's bull Kardinal.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 13, 2019, 08:20:10 AM
Salers came to the US in 1971-Deertrail Countess was born in 1985-Her dam was a Dollar Second Cow-Her sire was Hilltop was Hilltop 4150 Lancer 1150  born in 1981-A bull purchased by ED Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins. THE LANCER WAS BRED TO THE DOLLAR SECOND COW-THE CONNECTION WAS:DEERTRAIL COUNTESS THE RESULTING CALF OF THAT MATING, HOW HARD IS THAT TO COMPREHEND?There were several other good Lancer females at Deertrail whose descendents sold and showed-Deertrail Countess was calf champ at Denver-and had 16 calves. One was: Iroc-(who went back to lancers on both sides) and did alot of winning out west for U bar U . He was very moderate and stout, and looked nothing like a Hilltop deal-, Countess Hearthrob , who sold for $8800 or something at Denver and ended up in Va-And several others.APPARANTLY THIS BREEDING WORKED IN THE DAY IN KANSAS AS STATED- IOWA IS ANOTHER STATE- There were a number of cows sired by Lancer at Hoskins who had steers go to Texas etc-They were out of  of cows that went to maines Irish and Charolais I saw maybe 10 of them-and they looked like big long cattle-high gutted big butts and goosey dual looking fronts The Lancers females were registered to whatever and  had been bred to mainexIrish bulls (Powers Improver etc). Char Cross bulls  with the resulting calves registered as whatever plus GR Exclusive,AF PRIMO ,Sunset Classic Drive, Crocadile Dundee (to moderate them) Equitys Image and "others:- O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Okotoks on July 13, 2019, 12:02:24 PM
Salers came to the US in 1971-Deertrail Countess was born in 1985-Her dam was a Dollar Second Cow-Her sire was Hilltop was Hi Lolltop 4150 Lancer 1150  born in 1981-A bull purchased by ED Grathwohl and Harold Hoskins. THE LANCER WAS BRED TO THE DOLLAR SECOND COW-THE CONNECTION WAS:DEERTRAIL COUNTESS THE RESULTING CALF OF THAT MATING, HOW HARD IS THAT TO COMPREHEND?There were several other good Lancer females at Deertrail whose descendents sold and showed-Deertrail Countess was calf champ at Denver-and had 16 calves. One was: Iroc-(who went back to lancers on both sides) and did alot of winning out west for U bar U . He was very moderate and stout, and looked nothing like a Hilltop deal-, Countess Hearthrob , who sold for $8800 or something at Denver and ended up in Va-And several others.APPARANTLY THIS BREEDING WORKED IN THE DAY IN KANSAS AS STATED- IOWA IS ANOTHER STATE- There were a number of cows sired by Lancer at Hoskins who had steers go to Texas etc-They were out of  of cows that went to maines Irish and Charolais I saw maybe 10 of them-and they looked like big long cattle-high gutted big butts and goosey dual looking fronts The Lancers females were registered to whatever and  had been bred to mainexIrish bulls (Powers Improver etc). Char Cross bulls  with the resulting calves registered as whatever plus GR Exclusive,AF PRIMO ,Sunset Classic Drive, Crocadile Dundee (to moderate them) Equitys Image and "others:- O0
I saw some Lancer bulls at the 1980 World Congress in Calgary  they were long dual purpose looking bulls obviously before any outside blood. I think most breeders with integrity find the whole scenario disturbing. The fact breeders did this and then other breeders knowingly went along and used animals they evidently knew were far from pure or what the papers said. I'm very thankful that now in the CSA every sire, AI or walking has to be DNA verified....it must be very frustrating for the dishonest breeders..
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: beebe on July 13, 2019, 01:17:31 PM
Well said.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Duncraggan on July 13, 2019, 03:00:25 PM
There is no "other influence" on my property but I think DNA verifying my cattle has been a process that makes me carry on sleeping easily every night.
I must profess that what I thought was a late AI calf turned out to be an early natural calf from the pick-up bull this year!
My herd is now >75% DNA verified and it is now relatively cost effective to test the 'keepers'!
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 13, 2019, 09:19:58 PM
Thats pretty passe and old hat with DNA having been prevalent for a good while-to the point of being irrelevant to this thread I have been talking about cattle from 30 plus years ago. The dishonest breeder was Harold Hoskins who has been dead for years But there were alot of others with Millbrooke puportedly right up there. Do any of you care to remember Spruce Hill Image and the comments from Charolais Breeders who saw him-or Geat White Hope? Just for grins I may feel like proving a point RE 2975-Im gonna bust a straw of semen on him and see if Cunia, Covino 11 or anybody else shows up.When I first hooked up with the guys from Kansas and Missouri-it was when they had Echodale Topdraft and Exclusives Showgirl (Hoskins -later mother to topdrafts show me) at Louisvile anybody remember what he really looked like-not a whole lot like his pedigree-thats for certain Niether did showgirl who was really sired by flash (Vistas Sentra MA )-THESE ARE JUST MINOR EXAMPLES-I dont think Ed Grathwohl was dishonest at all and in the day he was one of the top breeders on the continent:  his breeding remains  at the forefront of many of the "current shorthorn cattle years after his passing" IF NOTHING ELSE DOES THE MONA LISA COW FAMILY RING A BELL?--If he used a maine-He registered them that way-And alot of people wanted them and the Guiness-Mark 4-Enticer-Marvel and Irish  based cattle he had because they didnt want frail hardoing no thickness ratty dairy cattle.Due to the aforementioned DNA the dishonest breeders today dont worry about the pedigrees anymore-they just call c-section cow killer genetics 0 BW and age their show calves with the mayan calender  O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 15, 2019, 09:07:12 AM
Some of the allegations on this thread are downright laughable.  Great White Hope?  You've got to be kidding.  I believe the breeder of this calf was Clampitt and Lyon Jerseys of Iowa, Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota raised the calf.  We saw the check from the Grahams written to Clampitt and Lyon Jerseys for the bred cow, Clayside Cindy 2nd, at the Iowa State Fair.  She was bred to Columbus, the resulting calf was Great White Hope.  Harry Clampitt, along with Harold Hoskins, would not be happy on how their integrity is being questioned.  Too bad they are not here to defend themselves.  There is Great White Hope semen out there.  I would challenge anyone to test a straw and prove that he wasn't sired by Columbus or that he had Charolais in him for that matter.  In all the cattle mentioned in the previous post I see no allegation of Salers blood, which was the original focus of "discussion."  For the third time, I'll be especially specific this time, there is no Lancer in the Dollar II sired Countess cow.  If there is proof that some of the Lancers had Salers in them, I would like to see it.  Like most everyone else, I just saw no visual evidence of Salers in the Lancer influence cattle I saw.  If there was Salers in Awesome, there was a lot more influence from the Irish and G-9 cattle than Lancer.     
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 15, 2019, 06:59:32 PM
Allegations-Influence is in the eyes of the beholder and or actual breeder of the animal . Bloodtyping caught up one time with Harold Hoskins who bought back Exclusives Carrie (the artist later known as flashes 2975) and he laughed and joked about it for years. The pedigree says Lancer on the Deertrail Countess registration-Wether he was her sire (which he was)  doesnt change anything in her genetics or composistion Shes Hilltop on a MainexDual cow-BFD I couldnt believe Awesome when I saw him-(How did a freak of nature like him come out of a Mark 4 Hilltop Cow?) Awesome had no Irish breeding at all and if Enticer went back to Instant Replay-I"m the Arch Bishop of Canterbury- I never saw Image or Hope-But I was always interested in where the cattle came from and how they changed from dairy ratty cattle like White Hope who was just big and white (Howed he get so big and white ?)to ones like M and H Golden Image a steer bull back in the day. (Howd he get so steery and cool looking in one shot?) I saw his 11 or 12 year old son  Perfect Image at Wendall Dunns-(Howd he get so moderate and thick out of a cow who goes back to Ayatollah? WOW Petro 2 came out of her too) Guys would voice  their opinions Even a pretty well known Char Breeder I was taking to at Denver way back in 1990 RE Great Skinny hope and Spruce Hill Image -I admire the efforts of people who could create great cattle like that and how they did it I dont have to: like everything I see, not throw ideas around that I learned from others experiences or rein in my curiosity about the origens of cattle-Its history by way of opinions -they are not meant to be liked or accepted by everyone-thanks for letting me know Great Hope and Columbus were dual-another opinion gathered in the learning process per se   O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: Dale on July 16, 2019, 07:25:03 AM
Our cattle were tied next to Great White Hope at the state fair.  I was highly impressed with the amount of feed that he ate, maybe the most I ever saw.  This does not reflect on Hope's ancestry, but Columbus sired one daughter for us that was belt-buckle high on a six foot tall man.  That small cow went into our commercial unit, and did we miss the golden opportunity to develop lowline Shorthorns?

The best result we had from Graham genetics was in a A.I. daughter of Deerpark Leader 18th, from which we still have some Clipper cows.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 16, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
What did Clark look like? O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 16, 2019, 08:43:47 AM
There are plenty of photos of Clark out there.  I saw him show in the dairy class at the Iowa State Fair.  He was tall.  Find a photo of his sire, Scottshill Major Clark.  He was very moderate and correct. Clark, Columbus, Spiro, Thornwood Major, and many others were all half brothers sired by Major Clark.  Clark was tall, Columbus was moderate, Spiro was a little small, and Major was kind of average to me.  I showed against Great White Hope several times.  In Denver, Hope was grand champion, my bull was second in class to him and ended up as Reserve Senior Champion.  Kahoa's Charmer 19th was third, shown by Peter Packard.  As the judge was giving his reasons, Peter leaned over to me and said, "You should have beaten him!"  Maybe so, but I was no match for the fitting and showing ability of Roger Worthington and Weaver Angus Farms who was showing him for Mrs. Miller.  I had calves out of all the notable Graham bulls.  Not one calf displayed the remotest influence of anything that was not in their pedigree.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 16, 2019, 10:26:23 AM
What about ones bred to non dual bulls O0
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: oakview on July 16, 2019, 11:08:32 AM
I see both Leader 13th and 18th in Awesome's pedigree.  He has no Irish breeding?  Are you insinuating that the pedigree was fudged on both sides of his sire's pedigree?  The actual sire was a Maine and the dam's pedigree was fabricated, too?

What about what bred to non-dual bulls?  What does that mean?

I saw Spruce Hill Image several times.  Check out his photos.  He was a tall bull.  If he had something else in him, they hid it very well.
Title: Re: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 16, 2019, 08:19:29 PM
It depends upon who you talked to-There were alot of opinions on Enticer-I would insinuate that for starters he was no relation to instant replay-at a minimum- if you want to go by his dams pedigree thats up to you-ever see her? What I meant is  I was basically wondering how hard it was to change the other dual dairy cattle when they were bred to a maine influence or Irish etc.-The marvel ones were the ones I saw-along with Awesomes dam and granddam and daughters of Haumont-and other Hilltop breeding  breeding etc-they seemed to cross pretty well to me-as long as they were bred to something thick-and not many of the Graham type cattle were very thick according to people I spoke with. I came along around 7 to 10 years later and saw relatives of some of those 80s cattle,( Ayatollahs, Spiros, even a couple huge white hopes)they looked like they were on the way out-At that time the cattle were big but definitely working on being thicker. O0