Fertility or what?

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justintime

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We purchased Six S Leah 55L in 2007 in the Butterfield dispersal in Alberta for $6300. At the time she was a 6 year old cow. At that time, I had only paid that much for a female on a couple other occasions. For some reason, I was absolutely determined to own this cow and I decided before the sale that if I had to sell 25 cows to pay for her I was willing to do it. Fortunately, I didn't have to do that and fortunately, even my wife, who was sitting beside me when I purchased her, said she thought I had got a bargain!! After the sale, I was told by another breeder,  that I would never get my money back from her as big cows like her, were unproductive and probably unfertile as well. This guy told me, she would never survive on our dry pastures and that she was a cow that needed to be pastured on a field with a pivet on it.  I told this guy that I was willing to take my chances as it had been decades since I had seen a cow as thick and with as much volume as her.I told him that if he was right, and she did not survive in my conditions, I did not think it would result in me losing my farm. I was willing to put my faith in her.  Well she is now 12 years old. She has never had 1 ounce of grain on our farm and she just remained FAT.Not only is she fat, but she is simply huge. 2200 lbs huge. Three people could probably sleep comfortably on her back.  She has spent a considerable length of time at an ET center and they told me that she was kept seperate from most of the other cows and kept on a diet or she simply got too fat.
She produced a bull calf in 2008 that was our top gaining bull in our bull test and topped the sale at $5000. She was kept open and sent to the ET center as we had some requests of embryos from Britain from her. I had no idea what was about to happen. She was flushed 5 times and produced 135 grade 1 embryos ( average of 28 per flush). We decided that in order to keep her fresh, that we should rebreed her and she was bred AI 5 days after her last flush and she conceived. She had a heifer calf that turned out to sell for $5000 in our production sale. The next spring an ET bull calf again topped our bull sale at $9000. She was sent back to the ET center as we sold a flush in her and we had several more inquiries for embryos from her. In this stay she was flushed 8 times and she produced another 195 grade 1 embryos.( average of 24.4 / flush) The lowest flush she has had was 7 grade 1 embryos and that was the flush we sold, however there was a bunch of unfertilized embryos so it may have been a semen quality issue that time. The 8th flush resulted in 28 grade 1 embryos and I was at the ET center that day and I decided that she needed to come home and get rebred. She was loaded on my trailer as soon as the flush was completed and I brought her 600 miles back home and she was dropped off in a pasture with one of our herd bulls. I saw her bred 4 days later and really did not think she would ever settle to that service.... but she did, and this morning, she gave birth to two  very healthy twins. A red neck roan heifer and a solid red bull calf. So far having the mixed sex twins is the worst thing she has done. Most cows that carry twins will drop a little more flesh during the gestation than most of the others in the herd. Not the case with Leah. She is still FAT and it has been a rather cold windy winter. She has been wintered on poor quality hay some of it 4 and 5 years old that was rained on before it was baled. I have been trying to get this stuff fed so the cows were getting 3 bales of the old crappy hay and one good quality bale. The only bedding they have received has been the old hay they did not want to eat.
Leah loves both her babies and has lots of milk for them both. Both calves were running around the pen literally minutes after being born. The heifer calf weighed 62 lbs and the bull calf is 67 lbs. To look at Leah, she has so much body mass that she doesn't even look like she has calved.
I also find it interesting that this female has been flushed 13 times and produced 330 grade 1 embryos and yet she shows no physical signs of ever been flushed. I have a couple other cows that have been flushed twice that have high tail heads, and got coarser fronted. There appears to be major differences between females , even within a breed and within a herd, and within the same cow line. I wonder if there has ever been any studies on why this happens?

Leah has been selected to establish 5 herds in the Shorthorn business. 5 different producers have selected her embryos to establish their new purebred breeding herds with. I doubt if many cattlemen can say they have established 5 new herds in their breed. I will be honest and say that basically all I have done to establish these herds, was to have owned the cow and flushed her. Leah has done the rest.

As I said earlier, she is now 12 years old and she is as sound as the day I purchased her. I expect we will send her back to be flushed some more, as we only have 33 embryos left in our inventory and we have sold 297 embryos to 7 countries. Besides her twins, we are still awaiting the birth of another 15 ET calves from her in March. and April.  I hear we have some pretty good Mandalong Super Flag bull calves on the ground in a cooperator herd we use in Minnesota. I am hoping we get some more heifers from her to add to our herd. Another interesting fact to me, is that while she is so massive in size, she has never produced any offspring here, that were over a 6 frame. They do possess her fleshing ability and her body mass, but none have inherited her mature size, and she has been bred to a wide variety of sires.

I am not telling Leah's story to brag. Far from that. I am telling her story, because I think it is proof that once in awhile a very unique female shows up.I am telling this story to just say that sometimes you cannot judge a book by looking at it's cover.  I expect almost everyone who sees her would say she is way bigger than we want. I would tend to agree, however, I can now overlook that fact when I see how easy fleshing, fertile and trouble free she is. She may die tomorrow, but by the way she looks today at 12 years of age, I can see her still doing her thing at 15 years of age or even older.

Here are two pictures of Leah - the first was taken when she was 7 years old and it was taken the day we weaned a 770 lb bull calf off her ( no creep). The second picture is Leah at almost 11 years of age on a cold -30 F January day.
 

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justintime

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This is an ET son of Leah who topped our bull sale at $9000. He was a 6 frame yearling bull, but possessed amazing thickness and fleshing ability. He is sired by Saskvalley Pioneer 126P
 

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Okotoks

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I saw Leah at Butterfield's dispersal and I have seen her at the ET Centre since and I have to agree she does not show any signs of getting coarse or being flushed. She looks pretty amazing in her 11 year old photo. We have had a couple of big cows like that, they were excellent milkers that never got thin. Leah must be a pretty impressive converter when she can stay in shape, milk and rebreed.
 

Duncraggan

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An amazing looking animal that breeds as well as she looks good, judging by her son Bulletproof!  She must surely rate as your best investment ever! <beer>
 

leanbeef

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I have to say I'm not a fan of the big ones, but as you've proven, big doesn't always mean unproductive OR inefficient. We decided to offer three 10-year-old cows in our production sale last fall, and one of them was an 1800-lb cow that sounds very much like your cow. Although she had never been flushed, she had always been a picture of productivity, and she seemed to be able to maintain herself on the same thing it took to keep the smaller cows. She was just a bigger cow.

The guys who bought her have decided to flush her, and we have her set up to flush next month. I'm encouraged by the numbers you have gotten...although we have a different breed and there may be very little similarity, we do have productive, fertile cows set up to flush. We'll see how it goes. Hope your Leah cow keeps on for a long time to come. It doesn't sound like she's planning to quit on you any time soon! That yearling bull picture is impressive.
 

CAB

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justintime said:
This is an ET son of Leah who topped our bull sale at $9000. He was a 6 frame yearling bull, but possessed amazing thickness and fleshing ability. He is sired by Saskvalley Pioneer 126P

Grant is this the bull that came to Iowa? If so I need to go take a look @ him. Thanks, Brent
 

justintime

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CAB said:
justintime said:
This is an ET son of Leah who topped our bull sale at $9000. He was a 6 frame yearling bull, but possessed amazing thickness and fleshing ability. He is sired by Saskvalley Pioneer 126P

Grant is this the bull that came to Iowa? If so I need to go take a look @ him. Thanks, Brent

Brent... no the bull at Obrecht's is another Pioneer son. Here he is with his 2 year old mom.  I have been using this cow for a recip as she is a TH carrier. This bull was her first calf and he was tested to be TH free. He brought $9000 in our bull sale and people look at you when you tell them the dam of that bull is a recip here. In 2011, she did not retain the embryo that was implanted so she got bred to a herd bull.I almost shipped her to market, but then decided to see what she had for a calf.  She had a bull calf that is pretty frickin good. He is one of the best bulls in the pen and is leading the pack for ADG and WPDA.  I pulled blood and tested him and he is also TH free. I want to make sure this is right so I am presently waiting to hear the test on a second blood sample I sent in. Normally I don't mess around with carrier cows and I use them all as recips and they head to town if they don't keep the embryo pregnancy.
 

aj

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I would think that fertility under embryo transplant conditions would be a completely different from fertility out on the range. I have never ever seen data that said a high egg producing cow under et conditions were the same as say a high longevity type cow under range conditions. I would think that it could be a zero correlation. jmo
 

justintime

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aj said:
I would think that fertility under embryo transplant conditions would be a completely different from fertility out on the range. I have never ever seen data that said a high egg producing cow under et conditions were the same as say a high longevity type cow under range conditions. I would think that it could be a zero correlation. jmo

aj, you may be right.  All I know is that Phil Butterfield told me that she has conceived to her first service every year he owned her. Here at our place, she has conceived to every first service whether it has been by AI or natural breeding. I have no idea how her ovaries can handle being flushed and then rebred a few days later. The last flush resulted in 28 grade 1 embryos and she settled 5 days later and had twins yesterday.
 

leanbeef

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aj said:
I would think that fertility under embryo transplant conditions would be a completely different from fertility out on the range. I have never ever seen data that said a high egg producing cow under et conditions were the same as say a high longevity type cow under range conditions. I would think that it could be a zero correlation. jmo

I disagree that fertility under commercial management is completely unrelated to fertility in an ET program. I don't doubt that some cows just don't respond to drugs and may not work in ET, but those same cows might be perfectly acceptable producers in a normal environment. But I don't think you can take a cow that isn't very fertile to begin with and make a prolific donor out of her. The two scenarios are not the same, but I don't think I would agree that the two are unrelated.
 

Duncraggan

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Brent... no the bull at Obrecht's is another Pioneer son. Here he is with his 2 year old mom.  I have been using this cow for a recip as she is a TH carrier. This bull was her first calf and he was tested to be TH free. He brought $9000 in our bull sale and people look at you when you tell them the dam of that bull is a recip here. In 2011, she did not retain the embryo that was implanted so she got bred to a herd bull.I almost shipped her to market, but then decided to see what she had for a calf.  She had a bull calf that is pretty frickin good. He is one of the best bulls in the pen and is leading the pack for ADG and WPDA.  I pulled blood and tested him and he is also TH free. I want to make sure this is right so I am presently waiting to hear the test on a second blood sample I sent in. Normally I don't mess around with carrier cows and I use them all as recips and they head to town if they don't keep the embryo pregnancy.
[/quote]

Producing a calf like that as a first calver surely would warrant breeding her and testing the progeny?  I don't know the cost of a TH test but while producing calves like that, it would be worth doing the maths!
 

aj

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By definition you can't select for fertility cause it is the norm.....you can select against infertility by dropping that germ plasma.
 

Okotoks

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Duncraggan said:
Brent... no the bull at Obrecht's is another Pioneer son. Here he is with his 2 year old mom.  I have been using this cow for a recip as she is a TH carrier. This bull was her first calf and he was tested to be TH free. He brought $9000 in our bull sale and people look at you when you tell them the dam of that bull is a recip here. In 2011, she did not retain the embryo that was implanted so she got bred to a herd bull.I almost shipped her to market, but then decided to see what she had for a calf.  She had a bull calf that is pretty frickin good. He is one of the best bulls in the pen and is leading the pack for ADG and WPDA.  I pulled blood and tested him and he is also TH free. I want to make sure this is right so I am presently waiting to hear the test on a second blood sample I sent in. Normally I don't mess around with carrier cows and I use them all as recips and they head to town if they don't keep the embryo pregnancy.

Producing a calf like that as a first calver surely would warrant breeding her and testing the progeny?  I don't know the cost of a TH test but while producing calves like that, it would be worth doing the maths!
[/quote]
Well it is easier now that you can send in hair samples. At first with hair samples you often got no results but they seem to test much more accurately now. The cost for us is $26 so not a big investment but you always have that 50% chance of a carrier. We have 4 carrier cows we don't use as recips as we want to get TH free daughters of them.... that's a 25% chance and two of the best gave us THC bulls last year(now steers :( )
I would definitely gamble with JIT's cow though!
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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I also not a fan of big framed cattle as my enviroment condition is unable for keep it. But Leah is an amazing wonderful cow. Many times visiting oky site I stay looking she and think as wonderful should be own some calves from her. After you post that she produce so huge embryos amount I stay open mounth with your fertility and capacity to keep her body condition. Is an exception cow, my congratulations for you!
Regarding your capacity to produce so many embryos per flush and conceive at first mating, I can assume that she is UNIQUE!  (clapping)
 

sue

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I thought Fantasy Lane wrote the check at Butterfield dispersal in 2007?  I may be wrong ... but I googled it.  Seems to me they had a nice line up of donors to include leroy's dam?

Prarie Lane Sparkle
Sire: Diamond Captain Marc 27C x

Dam: Prairie Lane Delight 1D X

Sparkle is best known as being the mother of Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M x. She has also produced several excellent offspring in several countries. We also have 2 daughters in the herd. Her 2008 Pioneer heifer calf sold to Raymond Carnes, Tyler, TX. Her ET calves at Alvie Estates in Scotland are powerful. We have an excellent Dunbeacon Venture x heifer calf and bull calf now on the ground and they look excellent. She combines a massive body on a moderate frame, and she is feminine and fertile. She is just about the easiest fleshing animal we have ever seen, and all her offspring so far have possessed this same trait.

6S Leah

Leah was selected from the historic Butterfield dispersal. Philip Butterfield referred to her as “a truly monumental mother cow”. She produced 4 excellent daughters in the Butterfield herd before she came here. Her 2008 bull, HC FL Patriot 71U x* was our top selling bull in the 09 Sun Country Bull Sale at $5000 to Raymond Carnes, Tyler ,TX.

Leah has also excelled as a donor female, and she is the all time best embryo producer we have ever had. She produced 162 grade 1 embryos in 6 flushes to average 27 per flush. She has only been a donor female here for 1 year, however, her embryos have gone to leading herds throughout the US, Canada, Scotland and Australia. Leah is proof that you can have easy fleshing ability and performance in the same package. She weighs over 2100 lbs on a poor day, and is usually on a diet because she is getting too fat.

Lady Sophia 7N
Byland Gold Dust X
Sire: Byland Gold Spear X
Byland Augusta 1D40 X

CCS Equity’s Charmer X
Dam: HC Lady Sophia 9L X
Greenlane Sophia 7J X

The first time I saw Lady Sophia we had just arrived at Horseshoe Creek with a trailer load of show cattle to do our first western shows. When I saw Lady Sophia and her calf I knew it wasn't going to be easy! By the end of the show season her heifer calf had a new home. So when Lady Sophia was offered in The Fever Sale, Mother and Daughter were reunited. She has been flushed to Saskvalley Pioneer 126 P and K-Kim Gold Count 22P.

EPD ACC
DOB: February 10, 2003 CEDir -0.1 .03
Reg. No: X [CAN] *12425 CEDtrs +0.3 .01
Tattoo: KYA 7N BW +0.8 .05
Polled WW N/A
TH Free YW +17 .01
Milk N/A
Mat Wwt N/A

Secret Maid 9N
MSF Equity 43 X
Sire: CCS Equity’s Charmer X
LF Lucky Charm

CCS Marc Drive X
Dam: HC Secret Maid 18F
Dawnvue Secret Maid 24Y X

Secret Maid 9N is out of HC Secret Maid 18F who produced over $150,000 of offspring and embryos for Horseshoe Creek Farms. Secret Maid 9N has given us 1 bull and 4 heifers in her first two years of production and they are showing us that she is going to become an excellent donor. Secret Maid 9N has already produced two heifers we think are outstanding. One is sired by CF Varsity X* and one is sired by Royalla Dollars X*.


EPD ACC
DOB: February 13, 2003 CEDir -2.6 .11
Reg. No: X [CAN] *12410 CEDtrs -0.7 .05
Tattoo: KYA 9N BW +4.1 .27
Polled WW +22 .16
TH Free YW +34 .17
Milk -1 .07
Mat Wwt +11 .12

Elsies Jade New Beginning
Bodmin H M Alberta Mark 71A X
Sire: Diamond Captain Mark 27C X
Gafa Captain’s Rosebud Dolly X

Emerald Bigtime 49B X
Dam: Diamond First Elsie 1F X
Jay-Cie Dr Elsie 4D X

Elsie’s Jade was the 2000 Canadian National Junior Champion and Reserve National Champion Female at Canadian Western Agribition. In 2004 an ET daughter, HC Elsie’s Jade 3P, followed in her mothers footsteps and was Reserve National Champion at Canadian Western Agribition. She impresses everyone with her tremendous volume and thickness. She is massive bodied and yet is very fertile. She has settled to the first service every time she has been bred. We have several daughters and granddaughters in production, they are always among the top producers in our herd. This is truly a female you could build a herd around!


EPD ACC
DOB: February 23, 1999 CEDir N/A
Reg. No: X [CAN] F672614 CEDtrs N/A
Tattoo: GDC 23J BW +3.4 PE
TH Free WW +17 PE
YW +27 PE
Milk -3 PE
Mat Wwt +6
 

sue

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I hope Rick's time and money in shorthorn was profitalbe too?
 

justintime

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sue said:
I hope Rick's time and money in shorthorn was profitalbe too?

Rick and I do own several donors together. For a few years we partnered on the flushes and split the embryos. Rick decided that he did not want to flush any more as he was not implanting any more embryos. Some of the donors we split the purchase price and some we purchased seperately and then exchanged interests in other females. When Rick decided to quit he said I could flush any of the partner cows if I paid all the flush and freezing costs, and that is how we have done it. I still keep a few cows here that Rick owns but none of them are being flushed now. Leah was purchased by me, and Rick and shared the first flushes from her and in return I recieved embryos from some of the cows he owned entirely. They were registered in joint ownership so that we could both register any calves born on our resoective farms.
 

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