Finding semen on old bulls

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Endless Meadows

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I have a question for the group.  I have seen some pictures of old cattle (60's 70's) that are pretty interesting and in some circles these older genetics are making a comeback.  I was wondering if anyone knew how to go about finding semen on these old bulls?  Thanks
 

knabe

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look to see who's registering calves sired by these bulls.  ask the association you are interested in to say, can you give me a list of all animals sired by parisien in 2008, 2007,2006 etc.
 

aj

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I had a question on the old shorthron bull KENMAR President 26a  X3411494. Was his nickname maxi brute? He was born in 1969. I was thinking Don Stout owned him at one time and all the bull calves were named maxi-brutes. 26A was sired by Kinnaber Leader 9th. Are kenmar and kinnaber different herds?As to your question Endless Meadows I am also interested. I think there are some old breeders who have semen all over but don't know anyone wants it. It would probably in amps and not straws. I used to have semen on the ready go but as a kid I know I finally tossed it. He was homo polled. I think Gus Lippert owned him last I knew in the say the early 80's. If it only cost 20,000 to clone an animal wouldn't abs or someone clone say Coronet Leader 21st? Maybe you can't clone from semen. All their epd's suck for growth so the guys doing smoke and mirrors with unsustainable growth epd's wouldn't be interested in the old bulls. Great topic !
 

Doc

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Here is pictures of some of the older bulls.
I agree with Knabe on his approach to trying to find some semen on the older bulls.
 

knabe

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aj said:
If it only cost 20,000 to clone an animal wouldn't abs or someone clone say Coronet Leader 21st? Maybe you can't clone from semen.

if there are other 2n cells other than the 1n cells in with the sperm, theorhetically it is possible to clone from semen, even though the cell to be used is not a semen cell.  i haven't seen anyone duplicate a 1n cell to a 2n cell for a mammalian species yet.  and if you did that, it would not be a clone anyway, as there are translocations and other differences between arms of the chromosome.

one would need a cell sorter and probably master this technique from say mouse semen before attempting it on an animal one really wanted to clone (the 2n cell rescue from a semen sample).
 

justintime

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aj.....Kenmar President 26A was known by the nickname Maxi- Brute and Don and Pat Stout did walk him as a herd sire for many years. It would be interesting to know if they still have semen from him. He was a son of Kinnaber Leader 9th and out of a very powerful Kenmar Mayflower dam. She was an incredible cow and she probably would be cloned by someone if she was alive today.

The Kenmar herd was owned by Harvey Fulton and Sons at Birtle, Manitoba. The herd is still in operation and now is run by Harvey's two sons. It is a large herd with 500 -600 cows. Most are commercial now but there still are some very good purebred Shorthorns there. Harvey just passed away last year and was in his mid 90s when he died. He was still checking cows and feeding one group of cows right up until his death... and he knew each and every cow in the herd. When Harvey was about 80 years of age, he lost his driver's licence. This did not stop him from driving to the farm every day. He simply purchased all the land between the town, where he lived, and the farm.... and he made his own road on his own property so that he could drive to and from the farm.

The Kenmar herd started many of the leading cow families in the US and Canada today. Many of the female lines in the Barry Jordan herd( Waukaru) originated from females Barry purchased at Fulton's. The Myrtles and Myrtle Bo's all started at Kenmar as did the Mayflower, Duchess, lily, Dora and Daisy lines, to name a few. Harvey Fulton used some great herd sires in the 70s and 80s. Pleasant dawn Seal 2nd and Kinnaber Leader 9th were two of the sires he used and ABS leased both these bulls. The Kinnaber herd was owned by Bob and Wayne Gordon at Souris, Manitoba. Bob Gordon purchased TPS Coronet Leader 21st in the 1962 American  Polled Congress where he stood last in class because he was the biggest bull in class. Bob Gordon dispersed his Shorthorn herd in the late 70s and then was one of the original founders of Bar 5 Simmentals at Douglas, Manitoba. Bar 5 was founded by 3 Shorthorn breeders and 1 Polled Hereford breeder and was one of the great Simmental establishments for many years.

It is interesting that you mention the bull Ready Go. I purchased Ready Go in Louisville, KY where he was the Supreme Champion and record selling bull at the American Polled Congress, in 1973.  He was used here for many years and I sold him to Gus Lippert as a 9 year old bull. I think he was still breeding cows there when he dispersed his herd, and I heard that Ready Go was still breeding cows at 14 years of age. It is now 35 years since I purchased Ready Go but I still sell 50 to 100 vials of his semen each year. Many Canadian breeders still use him on their heifers as he was very easy calving. He was homozygous polled and his daughters were legendary females with perfect udders and lots of milk. A Ready Go son topped a production sale here in Saskatchewan this fall. We have sold Ready Go semen to Argentina, Brazil, Uraguay, Australia, South Africa as well as USA and Canada. The sale to South Africa was interesting, as at the time, the South African government only allowed their citizens to take a maximum of $2000 from the country at any time. The South African breeder wanted to purchase 400 straws, so he had to figure out how he was going to get the money out of the country to pay us. He had a wife in South Africa, as well as a girl friend in London, another girlfriend in Los Angeles, and yet another in Vancouver BC. He had each of these women carry money out of South Africa and send it to us.
Ready Go was a bull that had perfect feet and actually came out of pasture in better shape than he went in. He was a bull that would only breed a cow once and then never look at her again. He just about drove me crazy as I would see cows in heat when doing pasture checks and he would be laying in the shade. He had tremendous semen quality and for many years his semen was used as a comparison with all sires collected at Alta Genetics. Last fall I flushed a cow to Ready Go and I told my ET vet to check the semen as it was 35 years old. He said it was one of the best semen samples he had ever checked.

As far as EPDs are concerned, I really want to believe they have some value, but I have lost all faith in them after some of the data that has been calculated in recent months. I see nothing that makes much sense right now. I have full brothers that go from +8 to +32 for WW EPD. This makes no sense and there are many other examples where you simply cannot make any sense out of the numbers. Hopefully, this can be corrected soon.
 

coyote

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The old genetics also do place not too bad in the show ring. At Agribition the judges placed Justintime's Leader 21st bull calf first in his class and we got a third with our Leader 9th heifer calf.
 

Doc

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Hey JIT, we used a Ready Go son out a Weston Dynamo dtr back in '82. He was our 1st herd sire that was a son of a "big time " bull. He was so dark red that when he got wet , he looked black. He was a pretty good bull.
 

Davis Shorthorns

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justintime said:
The Kenmar herd was owned by Harvey Fulton and Sons at Birtle, Manitoba. The herd is still in operation and now is run by Harvey's two sons. It is a large herd with 500 -600 cows. Most are commercial now but there still are some very good purebred Shorthorns there. Harvey just passed away last year and was in his mid 90s when he died. He was still checking cows and feeding one group of cows right up until his death... and he knew each and every cow in the herd. When Harvey was about 80 years of age, he lost his driver's licence. This did not stop him from driving to the farm every day. He simply purchased all the land between the town, where he lived, and the farm.... and he made his own road on his own property so that he could drive to and from the farm.

I guess that just goes to show Where there is a will, there is a way. (thumbsup)
 

aj

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I talked to Marty at Hutch and they were going to try a maxibrute son on their cows. They bought him somewhere. He thought Maxibrute was probably a good carcass bull. I remember dad buying a couple of maxibrute sons when I was in high school from pa do in Oklahoma. Maybe the breed could have a "sale of old semen" in Denver or somewhere sometime. Or maybe a listing page of old semen on steer planet. Yea thats it. I think the old cattle could sure be a tool to be used in the shorthorn breed. I spose it won't be popular untill Cagwin or Cates or someone of high profile does it. The older cattle were probably wastier but had good fleshing ability...which is basically the same thing. I doubt any of the old bulls would be th,although Improver showed up when (1972?). I tried to e-mail pa do about maxibrute semen.
 

justintime

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I am flushing to some older Shorthorn bulls.  I have done two flushes to TPS Coronet Leader 21st X and two calves were born last year. Both have turned out to be very good calves. As coyote said above, the Leader 21 bull calf won his class at Canadian Western Agribition and his ET sister was second in class. Coyote had a very good Leader 9th heifer and she was 3rd in a tough class and I thought she could have been higher in class. We have a couple more Leader 21 calves coming this spring. I hope to flush once more to Leader 21 as I only have two vials left. We have both our Leader 21 calves entered in Denver next month. Hopefully this rotten weather will break so we can get to the show.

I have also flushed once to Pheasant Creek Leader 4th X, and hope to do another 3 flushes to him. Leader 4th was the Grand Champion at the 1970 Regina Bull Sale and sold to Remitall Cattle Co. at $7300. He was the last herd sire at Remitall before they dispersed the Shorthorn herd. He was red and homozygous polled. He was, in my opinion, one of the best of the Leader line.He was tremendously thick and easy fleshing. The dam of Leader 4th was a cow named Hi Way Honeysuckle X and she was a truly a great cow.... a cow I rank in the very best I have seen. She was bred in the herd of Walter Larson, Carrington, ND, which was one of the great herds of the 50s, 60s and early 70s. Right now I have 6 Leader 4th embryos out of our Shadybrook Presto 73G dionor and they will all be implanted this spring. Presto is the dam of the two Leader 21 calves and she has worked well with every sire we have used on her.

I also came upon a stash of Mandalong Super Flag X semen two years ago. Super Flag was the Australian sire who was brought to Canada by Dr. Gary Carter. An old AI insemenator, found 90 vials of Super Flag and 55 of Four Point Major X in his tanks and I was able to buy it all. I had asked him several times if he had any old Shorthorn semen and he said he didn't, but he found this in a tank that he hadn't looked in for several years. I would love to sort through his tanks and see what else he doesn't think he has.
 

Endless Meadows

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Here is maybee even a bigger question that I should have started with, given the lack of knowledge on past history in the breed.  What are some of the better older bulls (older than 1980) that have had some impact on the shorthorn breed or that you can see having some impact now?  Thanks
 

knabe

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Endless Meadows said:
Here is maybee even a bigger question that I should have started with, given the lack of knowledge on past history in the breed.   What are some of the better older bulls (older than 1980) that have had some impact on the shorthorn breed or that you can see having some impact now?  Thanks

what traits are you trying to address?
 

aj

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Endless meadows...I don't know much but just to keep dialog going. I was thinking Mandalong Super Flag was a red bull with a little bigger bwt. I was thinking 106#. I was thinking he was a good growth performance bull. Coronet Leader 21st is white, must have been popular. I have heard some people liked big gene better...he was roan I think. I assume they would improve fleshing ability and maybe hurt udder quality I don't know. Ready Go x was red and homozygous polled ...I think a heifer bull. I think it would be cool to use these cattle to get something different. If I want to buy a hard keeping female with a 110# bwt they are pretty easy to find right now in a showring near you. Jakes Proud Jazz is supposed to sire some stlyle and is easy calving. I always wondered if the old hubs bulls would ever come back from the Hubs Ranch Norton, Kansas. They were mostly horned and of milking shorthorn type yet they were fairly thick.The maxi brute bull I heard maybe was a good carcass bull with old time breeding. I wish jit would write a book on the breed as it would be informational. Maybe evrybody could throw out names of old bulls they remember. I don't know how the a.i. certs would work either. For the showring deal I would think Jakes Proud Jazz would work. (pop)
 

shortyjock89

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I sure like the look of Clipper King of USA....he looks like he could make some thick, moderate calves.  Probably even throw some hair too.
 

justintime

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Mandalong Super Flag was a roan bull who has a complete Australian outcross pedigree. If you go back several generations in his pedigree, you will find some Oakwood breeding from the Paul Teegardin herd in Ohio. Some Oakwood females and a bull from Thieman's in Missouri were sent to Australia in the late 50s to initate the polled side of the breed there. Up until then, there were no polled cattle in Australia.  Super Flag was used heavily in Canada and the US and he was considered a moderate calving bull. Lots of heifers were bred to him with few calving problems. He was also homozygous polled.

The Leader females had pretty good udders for the times. Coyote has some Leader 9th daughters in production and they have beautiful udders. I think if these bulls are used on good uddered cows you will get good uddered daughters. If the cow has a so-so udder, there may be similar issues with the daughters.

Ready Go was an udder improver. His daughters had excellent udders with great teat size and they were never sent to market because their udders had broke down.

Clipper King of USA was a good looking bull, but I do not remember many calves that got anyone excited. There was a Clipper King of USA daughter in a sale this fall that looked pretty good, so maybe he would work better on some of today's bloodlines. He was not a very big bull even though he looks big in his picture.

One bull I would like to research more is a bull named Dividend's Maxi King 77. He was a solid red son of Deerpark Dividend and he was out of a grand daughter of Clipper King of USA. Clipper King of USA was sired by Clipper King of Bapton X( who was one of the last sires to be imported from Scotland to N. America). Also in the pedigree of the Dam of Dividend's Maxi King 77 was a bull named Captivator of Bapton, who was also one of the very last Scottish imports. Both these bulls were the only polled bulls to come to North America from Scotland

Dividend's Maxi King 77 x was a very impressive bull. He was tremendously thick and had lots of meat. He was solid red and polled. He looked like he would make a great sire. I did everything I could to get a price on him when I saw him at the 79 Denver show. He was shown by Eddie Grathwohl , from Kansas and he was bred by Connell's from Illinois. I came close to offering my farm and his pick of any three women in exchange for the bull, but I could not get a deal done. I have often wondered if there was semen around from this bull as he could be popular today.

I would say that there are some bulls from the past that could be valuable breeding pieces today. There are also others that have nothing to offer us today. They were poor breeding bulls then... and they will be poor breeding bulls today. I see many breeders using old genetics just because they are old. I hope they know what they are doing and do a little research before they breed all their cows that way.
 

j3cattleco

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We flushed Ivy League's mother to Dividend and have 3 pregancies coming this spring.  Another bull we have talked some about is Diamond Legs 21.  I have never heard a bad thing about them as cows except that they were too small.  They said they were easy keeping good females, just weren't quite big enough for their day.  I know he's not as old school as some we have talked about but was wondering what people's opinion on him were.  And if they thought he could add something to today's markets.  He was an easy calving bull and sired easy keeping animals.  Anyways, I have an agreement in place to market what's left of the semen but we are trying to decide if it's worth it to do so.
 
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