first calf heifers

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maineanjou87

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I need some opinions on how long i should wait to induce 3 first calf heifers i have they were all bred the same day due date was 2-18-13 one had hers 5 days early im still waiting on 3 of them just wundering how long i should wait to do something or if i should do anything at all any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 

willow

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I think this is brought up just about every season.  Everyone has a different opinion, but I wouldn't be worried at all at this point and I would let nature take it's course.  If at seven days they haven't calved call your vet and get professional advice.  Our vet is very, very cautious when it comes to inducing.   
 

Carlson Cattle

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had this same thing happen last year and ares are due this year on that same time yesterday. we have one left to calve we usally wait about a week  to call the vet
 

leanbeef

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They were due yesterday and you're worried about inducing?... Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. If you decide you just can't wait for Mother Nature to take its course, make sure you have somebody around who is capable of doing a C section in case things don't go as easily as you expect. Inducing is not a common practice for most cattle operations.
 

maineanjou87

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SERIOUSLY im not worried bout it and i know that it isnt common practice but i wanted other peoples opinions on the subject isnt that what this is for SERIOUSLY to see what other people think or am i wrong just because i asked doesnt mean im worried i wanted to know how long other people would wait cause ive had to wait bfor this isnt my first time and the last time i waited a week the calf was to big and had to do a csection lost the cow and calf and i dont want that again sorry if i dont know everything like you lean beef
 

firesweepranch

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We just had a heifer calve, at 297 days gestation. We have no bulls around and AI'd her ourselves, so we know her exact due date. She calved a bull calf that was 72 pounds, if I remember correctly. A purebred Simmental, dam was sired by Club King and calf was sired by Grandmaster. Yes, I got a little worried, but I knew I used good genetics and everything ended up fine.  (thumbsup)
 

leanbeef

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Look...I'm not trying to be a jerk. So I'm sorry if I came across that way. And I don't know it all...but raising cattle requires some patience, some faith, some common sense, and sometimes a little luck. We've all lost some...if you're gonna have em, you're gonna lose one now and then. And I know that reality doesn't make it any easier when it happens. I take it hard every time.

I hear people on this site talking about inducing all the time, and it kinda goes against everything I believe. I don't even like to hear about inducing human babies, and people do that ALL the time! I don't think it's usually necessary...that's just my opinion. I'll tell you about the one experience I have with inducing a cow, and I think then you'll understand why I'm so against it.

Somebody I knew fairly well induced a cow a few years ago based on advice from his vet. He was worried that the cow was a few days over due, and the vet advised him to induce her. It just happened that I was going over to his house for dinner than night, and he had been waiting for a while for labor to start. After dinner, the cow still didn't seem to be progressing, so he asked me to check her. I couldn't tell exactly what was going on, but I knew it wasn't right. We called the vet. The vet said she probably hadn't dilated, and that if she wasn't dilated before she was induced, then the shot he gave her would induce labor without dilating her cervix. He had failed to share that part before he told him to induce her...so now she was in labor, and the calf couldn't fit through the cow's cervix.

The vet ended up coming out, and sure enough, the cow was in labor, but her cervix was not dilated. There was no way for the calf to get out. I asked the vet didn't this need to be a C-section, and he said probably so, but that he didn't do C-sections. By this time, it was late at night; there was no way this situation wasn't going to be bad. I won't even go into the details after that because it was the most inhumane thing I've ever witnessed. I cried in disbelief, but there was nothing I could do. The cow died.

I've had cattle all my life. Some things are second nature to me that I know I take for granted are common sense for everybody. Inducing is not something I would ever recommend, and if you think you have an extraordinary case that requires drastic measures, then please make sure you have a qualified person there who knows what he or she is doing. Most cattle will deliver within a week of their due date, either early or late. I've had them be as much as 10 or 12 days early or late, but they rarely are further away from the target date than that. Some genetics are different, and management definitely plays a huge role in calving problems, but I doubt it has as much to do with gestation as genetics does. That's anybody's guess.

It always pays to watch heifers closely, especially as they get near their due date or go over. And yes...the further over they are, the better the chance that the calf might be bigger or that she may need some help. But the fact that one is a few days over does not AUTOMATICALLY mean the calf will be big or that she'll need help. My advice is to watch her even closer. If you're especially anxious about it, I would say check on her every four to six hours; the more often you see her, the better the chance that you'll know exactly what's going on and when and if you might need to intervene. It might take a first-calf-heifer about 4 hours from the onset of labor until delivery, so don't panic or get in a hurry. But you should see progress...if she goes an hour or two and nothing seems to be changing, it's time to think about a game plan. Especially after the water breaks...things should move along, but still...it takes a little time. and 5 or 10 minutes seems like FOREVER! Try to have a clock or watch and know how much time has gone by, and try not to panic. Try to understand what "textbook" is and then be prepared by knowing how and when to respond if you're in a situation that isn't "textbook" delivery. That's the best thing you can do for you and for your cattle.

Again...I apologize if I came across like a know-it-all jerk. I'm not. And I do understand being anxious and nervous...I've had cattle for years, and I still feel that way about almost every baby we have! Good luck...I hope you just wake up one sunny morning and find em up and nursing with their little tail wagging!
 

RyanChandler

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leanbeef said:
They were due yesterday and you're worried about inducing?... Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. If you decide you just can't wait for Mother Nature to take its course, make sure you have somebody around who is capable of doing a C section in case things don't go as easily as you expect. Inducing is not a common practice for most cattle operations.

Neither are c sections.

As far as calving problems, Dr Beever from the university of Illinois stated that, " the shorthorn breed doesn't have a bw problem, we have a gestation length problem."
 

leanbeef

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-XBAR- said:
leanbeef said:
They were due yesterday and you're worried about inducing?... Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. If you decide you just can't wait for Mother Nature to take its course, make sure you have somebody around who is capable of doing a C section in case things don't go as easily as you expect. Inducing is not a common practice for most cattle operations.

Neither are c sections.

As far as calving problems, Dr Beever from the university of Illinois stated that, " the shorthorn breed doesn't have a bw problem, we have a gestation length problem."

Exactly...the difference though is that C-sections are a last resort in an emergency situation...most people don't do C-sections unless they have to. At least, I wouldn't. I don't know of many situations when people are forced into inducing a cow into labor.

What exactly does that mean..."we have a gestation length problem." Is gestation in Shorthorns much longer than average? I wouldn't expect that...
 

RyanChandler

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leanbeef said:
-XBAR- said:
leanbeef said:
They were due yesterday and you're worried about inducing?... Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. If you decide you just can't wait for Mother Nature to take its course, make sure you have somebody around who is capable of doing a C section in case things don't go as easily as you expect. Inducing is not a common practice for most cattle operations.

Neither are c sections.

As far as calving problems, Dr Beever from the university of Illinois stated that, " the shorthorn breed doesn't have a bw problem, we have a gestation length problem."

Exactly...the difference though is that C-sections are a last resort in an emergency situation...most people don't do C-sections unless they have to. At least, I wouldn't. I don't know of many situations when people are forced into inducing a cow into labor.

What exactly does that mean..."we have a gestation length problem." Is gestation in Shorthorns much longer than average? I wouldn't expect that...

While I haven't personally experienced this- I've actually had more due on their due date this year that any year before I can remember- Dr Beever mentioned that among a lot of the genetics that are known as having large bw within the shorthorn breed, really have abnormally long gestation lengths to which he attributed the calving problems too.  He encouraged selecting for shorter gestation length bulls as that would take care of the bw problem... at least within the shorthorn breed.
 

leanbeef

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-XBAR- said:
While I haven't personally experienced this- I've actually had more due on their due date this year that any year before I can remember- Dr Beever mentioned that among a lot of the genetics that are known as having large bw within the shorthorn breed, really have abnormally long gestation lengths to which he attributed the calving problems too.   He encouraged selecting for shorter gestation length bulls as that would take care of the bw problem... at least within the shorthorn breed.

Interesting...LOL I think you meant you've had more CALVE on their due date...

I would agree that there is a genetic component that determines gestation, but I don't think that's ALL it's based on. For instance, I had a heifer last year that went 12 days over and had a huge calf...I lost him and almost had a mess of a situation with her. She bred back and calved early this year (to a different sire), but I had other calves out of the sire of the calf last year, and that was the only one that was big OR terribly late. I guess it was just a bad combination?... And I don't even think it would necessarily be a bad combination every time. If it's the genetics of the calf that determine gestation, then two full sibs could theoretically be completely different. I think a lot of times, we tend to give either the sire or the dam a lot of the credit for gestation, and I'm not sure how much of that is warranted. Obviously, the parents play a role in the genetics of that calf, so they aren't totally off the hook here, but I'm wondering if it's the actually the genetics of that unborn calf that determine at least part of how long it will be carried, and not just the sire or the dam...
 

Cattle Cards

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First off, leanbeef, you came off perfectly well.  No worries.  Bad story, good example.

Gestation is based on 283 days.  Back in the Eighties, when we were calving 150 Simmental cows a year, they averaged 285-287.  Was a known breed trait.  Maybe today with all of the crossbreeding, that's not the case.  Or maybe the adding of exotic blood has extended that?  Does anyone have any experience with this in other breeds?

Just wondering...
 

maineanjou87

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Leanbeef i apologize for my response i took it the wrong way but ive had cattle for 12 years now and i understand its against nature to do it and ive never done it i was just discussing it with a guy i own them with he wants to induce sooner than i would think about and thats why i posted it i wanted see what other peoples expeeriences were with it and the last heifer i had that went a week over had a csection calf was to big. And i always check my heifers every four hours and know all the signs but thanks for the response and thats also very good advice.
 
J

JTM

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-XBAR- said:
leanbeef said:
They were due yesterday and you're worried about inducing?... Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. If you decide you just can't wait for Mother Nature to take its course, make sure you have somebody around who is capable of doing a C section in case things don't go as easily as you expect. Inducing is not a common practice for most cattle operations.

Neither are c sections.

As far as calving problems, Dr Beever from the university of Illinois stated that, " the shorthorn breed doesn't have a bw problem, we have a gestation length problem."
I'm wondering if there is any scientific evidence of how much a calf gains in weight for everyday it is overdue? I have always wondered this and have thought it is maybe as much as two pounds per day. I can confirm that Dr. Beever is exactly correct. Gestation length is probably the biggest problem.
 

firesweepranch

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Cattle Cards said:
First off, leanbeef, you came off perfectly well.  No worries.  Bad story, good example.

Gestation is based on 283 days.  Back in the Eighties, when we were calving 150 Simmental cows a year, they averaged 285-287.  Was a known breed trait.  Maybe today with all of the crossbreeding, that's not the case.  Or maybe the adding of exotic blood has extended that?  Does anyone have any experience with this in other breeds?

Just wondering...
I have always been told to figure 285 for Simmentals, and that is what I do. Most of mine are right at 285 or a few days later. So far this spring, NOT ONE has been early, all have been 287 days or longer, including an embryo calf.
 

Till-Hill

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I have a hereford angus cow that stays super fat year round. At calving she pushes out a "ball" so on her due date or few
Days after we induce her as risk for infection goes up every day according to my vet. She is always bred clubby bit did keep a simmy heifer
out of her and she has yet to do it. The. Cow is bred to a Heatseeker x Meyer 734 with heifer calf so we mote wait few more days than normal to induce her. Only beef cow I've thought of doing it to....
 

OH Breeder

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maineanjou87 said:
Leanbeef i apologize for my response i took it the wrong way but ive had cattle for 12 years now and i understand its against nature to do it and ive never done it i was just discussing it with a guy i own them with he wants to induce sooner than i would think about and thats why i posted it i wanted see what other peoples expeeriences were with it and the last heifer i had that went a week over had a csection calf was to big. And i always check my heifers every four hours and know all the signs but thanks for the response and thats also very good advice.

We have induced several in years past. But we also have great resources close by in case of emergent section. We keep pretty close tabs on heifers. I have had couple heifers checked and elective section schedule to avoid dystocia. I would not induce if you are not sure on gestation and there is a clean up bull. If you are sure of your due date and are confident in handling the situation it is not that big of deal. Be aware you may have more trouble with retained placenta's with inductions. I think this is another situation of different strokes for different folks. I waited in the past and had some train wrecks. We have a very small herd and when we loose one it really impacts the bottom line. Fortunately I have great support people and if we induce we check hourly and til labor starts. We do not leave the heifer or cow alone and til they calve. We pen them up and hang for the long haul. It can take 24-48 hours for anything to happen. I have had a couple respond much quicker than that but most take their time. if you have a local vet that you trust- have them palpate. Not always the most accurate way to determine size but they can tell if there is something to worry about. I am not a vet nor do I play one on TV. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night either. Just a disclaimer this is my personal experience with my vet.
 

leanbeef

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Till-Hill said:
I have a hereford angus cow that stays super fat year round. At calving she pushes out a "ball" so on her due date or few
Days after we induce her as risk for infection goes up every day according to my vet. She is always bred clubby bit did keep a simmy heifer
out of her and she has yet to do it. The. Cow is bred to a Heatseeker x Meyer 734 with heifer calf so we mote wait few more days than normal to induce her. Only beef cow I've thought of doing it to....

"Risk for infection"?... What does that mean? He thinks this risk is greater than the risks you face by inducing? I don't buy that...
 

leanbeef

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Till-Hill said:
The ball she has out gets dirty goes back in and thats why it concerns my vet to wait for her to calve so we induce.

You're saying she has a vaginal prolapse when she gets close to calving?...

I've seen those before. We've had cows in our herd that tended to do that, and I can't say any of them ever had any type of problems. We don't like it, but we've never done anything special to accommodate the females that tend to do it. Except maybe be harder on them for other reasons at culling time. I have heard that this is a trait that is passed on to daughters of cows that have the same tendency, so if you keep daughters of that cow, you might expect the same thing from them.
 
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