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Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2007, 11:04:26 PM »
I think someone else may have mentioned this already, but I think that motivation is the ONLY resource you need. If you have that, you can make everything else happen.  I can remember my first 'big show' where I was competing against the kids of the 'high rollers.'  I was so scared and was SURE  I was going to be last! (to this day, it is the most memorable second place I have ever received). It was easy to see there were some phenomenal cattle, and  I wanted mine to look like that. Any kid  who is serious about being involved in showing cattle and being competitive at it will see it  that way - there is no short cut to winning and if you can look up the line and see why those cattle are winning and yours are not, you've made a step in the right direction. The kids who are disenchanted to need to realize they have some work to do (its go big or go home). Competition breeds quality. As for the kids who have  a fitter - if they are interested, they will learn to do what the fitter is doing, and if they are not interested, they may win this show...but they probably won't win the next one - or even be at it as soon as they can convince their parents they are finished with showing.

Frankly, I've  had it up to there with the "rules" that try to 'even the playing field.' My brother and I used to fit as a team when we got our steers ready for  4-H.  His last year in 4-H, I didn't go in 4-H as I had gone away to college. I came back up for showday, and since I was still young enough to compete, I helped him fit his steer. The steer won, some 4-H parents threw a fuss, and my brother was disqualified for the grooming award because I helped him (and I was quote on quote 'a professional fitter.') Nevermind he spent every night in the barn working very hard on that steer and the steer would have won if he walked into the ring without any glue or that he helped get all my cattle ready for Agribition the fall before that (does that make him qualify as a 'professional' fitter too?) The only people I ever hear talk about 'leveling the playing field' are the people that are standing at the bottom of the line and  and don't want to do the work  it takes to get to the top.


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« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 11:05:11 PM by OH Breeder »
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Offline TJ

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2007, 11:21:36 PM »
I think someone else may have mentioned this already, but I think that motivation is the ONLY resource you need. If you have that, you can make everything else happen.  I can remember my first 'big show' where I was competing against the kids of the 'high rollers.'  I was so scared and was SURE  I was going to be last! (to this day, it is the most memorable second place I have ever received). It was easy to see there were some phenomenal cattle, and  I wanted mine to look like that. Any kid  who is serious about being involved in showing cattle and being competitive at it will see it  that way - there is no short cut to winning and if you can look up the line and see why those cattle are winning and yours are not, you've made a step in the right direction. The kids who are disenchanted to need to realize they have some work to do (its go big or go home). Competition breeds quality. As for the kids who have  a fitter - if they are interested, they will learn to do what the fitter is doing, and if they are not interested, they may win this show...but they probably won't win the next one - or even be at it as soon as they can convince their parents they are finished with showing.

Frankly, I've  had it up to there with the "rules" that try to 'even the playing field.' My brother and I used to fit as a team when we got our steers ready for  4-H.  His last year in 4-H, I didn't go in 4-H as I had gone away to college. I came back up for showday, and since I was still young enough to compete, I helped him fit his steer. The steer won, some 4-H parents threw a fuss, and my brother was disqualified for the grooming award because I helped him (and I was quote on quote 'a professional fitter.') Nevermind he spent every night in the barn working very hard on that steer and the steer would have won if he walked into the ring without any glue or that he helped get all my cattle ready for Agribition the fall before that (does that make him qualify as a 'professional' fitter too?) The only people I ever hear talk about 'leveling the playing field' are the people that are standing at the bottom of the line and  and don't want to do the work  it takes to get to the top.

You nailed it.   (clapping)

Motivation is the most important thing.  Of course, a motivator/teacher/encourager/mentor is important too, but that will only help if the kid is willing to learn & work. 

I also agree that those on the bottom are usually the ones who make the most noise about "leveling the playing field."  If they want to level the "playing field" they most certainly can do that, but only if they are truly motivated enough to level the playing field. 
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Offline TJ

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2007, 11:37:30 PM »
I do get tired of people playing the disadvantage card. I was the youngest kid of 9 children. We DIDN'T have anything when I was a kid. ( I know cry me a river.... ;)) I took what came out of the barn that I have raised and broke. My parents are the age of most folks grandparents. If you want to compete you can, you just have to want it. MONEY or NOT. If you don't have any money, it doesnt cost anything to hitch a ride to a cattle show and spend time before the show starts and watch watch watch. I spent all summer working,so I could to buy my own show supplies etc. Lets face, there are some children that do not have it easy, but when I was them- it made me try harder. Bobby May use to sell at least two calves and still does in our county fair. Bobby and crew would come to the county fair and groom. Now, I never let that bother me, I just spent more time watching them and asking questions.
Life has been good to me. We have more advantages than I did as a kid. I spend most of my disposible income on the cattle." Like they say, we use to have money and now we show cattle." The cattle are a family project, who cares who is feeding and grooming, it takes a family to get it all done. The kids and I both help other exhibitors with our little knowledge when we can.

okay, I will step off my soap box.

ps,
they have a fitting clinic with a PROFESSIONAL fitter the first day of the fair for the kids of ALL ages. He works on both steers and heifers. Has the kids groom and judges them. They can then take that information and apply it that week to there own cattle.

Excellent example of what hard work, motivation & a willingness to learn can overcome!!  I only wish that more people had that same type of mentality & drive, because this country would be in MUCH better shape!   

Rather than banning fitters & letting someone else "level the playing field" so that more people can take the "easy way out", I think that more people should try to work harder & level the playing field with hard work & learning. 
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Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2007, 08:08:09 AM »
IF they are serious about leveling the playing field do what our county did for ONE class. It was called a scramble class. The year before you caught a 500 pound calf that had never seen a human, haltered it, and drug it to the side of the the showring and tied it up. That entitled you to a heifer in Oct/Nov when the cattleman assoc went to ONE producer and picked out heifer calves. All the same genetics. You then showed up on a Saturday and drew a tag number, and that was your heifer. In order to keep the heifer, you had to show it the following year at the fair.
So you have same heifers at the beginning of the project, and guess what, by July, there were 250 pounds difference in their weights, some were bred some weren't, some were "nice" some weren't.  It all depended on what the family did with it between Oct and July!!!  THAT leveled the playing field.

Although I am not sure so I agree with the statement about only the losers want to "level the playing field, etc."
I once heard a class winner complain the class took too long and could they put a time limit on the classes? "It is too hot (in their best whiny voice!)"
I lost plenty of times, and I couldn't have cared less. Honestly. (And I am darn competitive) I had tried my hardest and did all my own work, so I guess you could say I lost all by myself!!! ;D  BUT, it did make me do things differently the following year. Maybe a different breed, maybe different training practices, maybe different goop. Trial and error.
Maybe I was the only one in the world that felt that losing didn't mean quiting, or cheating, or sacrificing my respect for myself. But I don't think so. Many kids show livestock for fun (imagine that). So please don't link "not placing high enough" with complaining or whining....THAT just isn't right or fair.

I heard a very wise judge once say after the champion selection : "They problem with todays youth programs is there are to many 40 year old 4-H'ers."  Couldn't have said it better myself!!
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Offline Jeff_Schroeder

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2007, 08:26:55 AM »
There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isnt about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  Im not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Quote
Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because its their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:36:53 AM by JSchroeder »

Offline justme

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2007, 08:32:16 AM »
I was a disadvantaged kid in the cattle aspect of 4-H growing up.  My dad was a "city" boy, my mom raised horses...and somehow they had a daughter that LOVED cattle.  I saved to by my first calf (CharolaisxChiAng).  Thank goodness for the steer jocks.  Those couple years of dreaming of owning and showing a calf, I was in the shaddows studying there every move.  So with that first calf...I had my grandpas old horse brushes and combs and a shop vac.  Turned that shop vac on blow and I washed and blowed that calf like crazy.  I had no "real" clippers.  Mom was a beautician and me and her hacked at that poor silver steer hair lol.  You know what...I think other than my daughters accomplishments this year, I am proudest of "old Petie".  My love for that old silver steer inspired me to major in beef at OSU/ATI.  I went on to manage Penn's Polled Herefords and now I manage our breeding and show cattle here at our farm.

Granted, not all steer jocks will let a young girl watch them for hours that never even attempted to buy a calf from them...but thank goodness I did.

Before our daughter was old enough for "real" 4-H we (my husband and myself) offered every kid in beef help.  We went to anyones farm and helped them clip there calves ect.  Every kid we helped got to hold the clippers and do some of the work.  On show day, any kid that wanted there calf fit, we took our shoot and all our supplies.  We helped all of them that wanted help.  We had the time of our life, and the kids were down on the knees helping.  What a shame that after that year, the very small livestock committee decided that isn't allowed anymore.  This year our daughter was old enough to show, we could help her but nobody else.  Really to bad...all it hurt was a the few kids that wanted to learn, and help a very small few.  I really think Jr. shows need to think of the kids once again. (this is in general)

OK enough sounding like the grumpy old man on Saturday Night live that use to say "In my day...." lol
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Offline chambero

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2007, 09:26:29 AM »
There are obviously many exceptions, but most of the "fitters" out there are doing this because they like to.  I haven't seen many kids turned down for help (at least pointers) even if they didn't buy calves from someone.

Showing cattle is so competetive you can't compete at the highest levels without help from someone that knows what they are doing AND a kid that knows what they are doing.  I often think there are more good jocks/fitters than kids willing to keep up their end of the bargain.  I've always believed that if a kid will prove to someone that they love showing and are willing to do the work someone will "find" them and see that they have a proper animal one way or another.  Unfortunately, most of our higher selling calves over the years have disappeared to people with means but little motivation.  But every year we put calves in local kids hands for market price just so they'll get shown and taken care of.

Offline itk

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2007, 12:25:12 PM »
There are obviously many exceptions, but most of the "fitters" out there are doing this because they like to.  I haven't seen many kids turned down for help (at least pointers) even if they didn't buy calves from someone.

Showing cattle is so competetive you can't compete at the highest levels without help from someone that knows what they are doing AND a kid that knows what they are doing.  I often think there are more good jocks/fitters than kids willing to keep up their end of the bargain.  I've always believed that if a kid will prove to someone that they love showing and are willing to do the work someone will "find" them and see that they have a proper animal one way or another.  Unfortunately, most of our higher selling calves over the years have disappeared to people with means but little motivation.  But every year we put calves in local kids hands for market price just so they'll get shown and taken care of.

Couldn't agree more. We all have families that we will sell cattle to for less money because they will take good care of them. We all also have families that we jack the prices up on because we have to make up for the fact that the calf will show up at the fair looking terrible. Once we find someone who loves showing, as breeders, we hold on tight to them because we know they will put in the work to make the animal look its best every time out even if we have to sell that animal for alittle less.
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Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2007, 01:32:44 PM »
There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isnt about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  Im not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Quote
Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because its their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?

I think the post was about peoples opinions on fitters and kids. Most of the points I have seen have been in referance to one or the other, like- if that 4th grader wants to compete then that 4th grader needs to take the INITATIVE and go and watch some 18 year olds groom. I have seen some 4th and 5th graders that did a better job in the fitting and grooming contest than 18 year olds. The younger ones usually do less and the older ones do more. Sometimes, less is more. If Mom an Dad are going to pay a professional, then have the kid jump in and help. As mentioned many times previously in this post, have them come to the farm prior to the show as well and work with the kids. I don't know too many fitters who won't do that. In my experience, they are more than willing to do both. It is not about age, it is about dedication and motivation. I think most of are saying the same thing. Age and motivation aren't always hand at the same level.
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Offline Jeff_Schroeder

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2007, 02:07:28 PM »
Like I said, if you want to teach the kid how to fit, hire a fitter to teach the kid, not do the work for the kid.

Offline cowz

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2007, 03:37:57 PM »
Like I said, if you want to teach the kid how to fit, hire a fitter to teach the kid, not do the work for the kid.

Excellent thought!  I witnessed this in real life this summer.  Some people with young kids ended up with 4 college age "fitters" to help.  Well the "fitters" did all the work, circling like vultures, ......the poor kids were not allowed to hardly touch their stock, not even wash em!   When the fitter is a true mentor, something wonderful occurs....an education!  When the kiddo is frustrated because everyone is soooo fussy...it takes all the fun out of it.

Fitting is an artform.  Takes passion and patience.  These are two valuable traits we can pass on to the next generation if we dont get so caught up in ourselves.
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Offline TJ

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2007, 04:13:08 PM »
There are a lot of people arguing against points that are not being made in this thread.

This isnt about being fair or being at a disadvantage.  Im not arguing for a level playing field, that every kid should have to show cattle from the same herd and same cost, or that everybody should get a trophy.

Quote
Why do you think that a 4th grader, who works like crazy at home, on thier own steer project, shouldn't be allowed to have any outside help on show day?

Pretty simple, because its their project.  Life's not fair and those kids who have been fitting calves for ten years DO have an advantage.  Showing is just about the only competition I can think of where that 3rd/4th grader does have a shot in heck of actually beating those seniors.  In any other type of competition you'd be laughed out of the building for saying a parent should be able to hire somebody to compete for their kid because they aren't as smart or skilled as somebody who has been competing for ten years.  Mommy and daddy paying a fitter to make up for juniors lack of experience isn't teaching anybody a darn thing. 

If parents want to hire jocks to take care of cattle, they can get their tails to the open class where they belong.

Would you mind answering the question I posed as to why you think a 4th grader should be on a level playing field with a senior who has a decade of experience working calves?

What about kids buying pre-broke calves?  Is not halter breaking an important part of a kids project too?  Yet, nobody complains about that, nor should they, IMHO.  And that is coming from somebody who used to break all of their own calves & who thinks that teaching kids to break their own calves is just as important as it is to teach them to fit.

With that said, if you really want to put the emphasis on "the kids & their project" here is what you should do... 

GET SHOWS TO PUT MORE EMPHASIS ON SHOWMANSHIP!!  It's really that simple.  If kids are judged on their fitting skills & knowledge & their showmanship skills & knowledge it will promote & if those kids are rewarded in a fashion similar to way that Grand Champion animals are rewarded, only then will you truly see everybody focusing on those aspects.  In other words, if the Grand Champion steer receives $500, then give the champion showmanship winner $500 too.  If you have a sale of champions, not only should you let the Champion animals sell, but you should also sell the Champion Showmanship winners animals as well.  For example, if the Grand Steer sells for $20,000+, then make sure that sponsors are also lined up to buy the Showmanship winners calf for at least $10,000.  If you put enough pressure on Shows & Show Committees to do something like that, it can happen.  If you feel that strongly, donate money to go into a pot to give to the Grand Champion Showmanship winner at the county fair.  It can be done & if it were to happen, more kids & parents would focus more time on fitting & showmanship skills of themselves/their children and IMHO, more & more kids would become as good or better than most pro-fitters. 

When I am talking about Showmanship, I am talking about having kids judged both on their fitting skills & their skills displaying an animal in the showring & their knowledge of doing both. 

With that said a Steer Show is a Steer Show... meaning the best steer should win.  It is totally different than a Showmanship/Fitting class & IT SHOULD BE!!  I'm not saying that Showmanship/Fitting doesn't play into it, it does, but it is still about the best steer.   

Again, if you want more focus on the kids & their projects, then encourage shows to place more focus on the showmanship/fitting aspect of it.  Donate to the cause if you have to.  If you do that, you will solve more & promote your cause a lot more than banning fitters on showday, IMHO.  I'll admit that a good fit job can dramatically change an animal, but shows are won or lost AT HOME not on showday, so banning a fitter is not really going to change much, IMHO. 

I still think that fitters should be allowed to help kids on showday.  I also think that picking the best animal & rewarding kids for displaying the best animal is A VERY IMPORTANT part of showing cattle.  IMHO, the kids who win the calf shows SHOULD get a bigger piece of the pie!!  But, I also see nothing wrong with the Champion Showman/Fitter & Reserve getting a bigger piece of the pie too!!  I see nothing wrong with rewarding class winners in both the calf shows & the showmanship/fitting shows. However, I do see something wrong with rewarding everyone equally. The winners SHOULD get more & the higher up the ladder they go, the more they should get, IMHO 

I could go on & mention that kids can also learn very valuable life skills by hiring fitters.  Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.  Those who can get things done will excel in when they get out on their own.  Those skills are not only helpful in the business world, but they are very valuable skills to have if your future is going to be in AG!!  Of course hard work, self motivation & being able to do things yourself are also important skills to have.  I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more. 

 
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 04:52:45 PM by TJ »
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Offline TJ

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2007, 05:24:45 PM »
Quote
But, let's be honest...  many 1st year, 4th graders, may actually "outwork" everyone else, but they just don't have the "fitting skills" to compete with an 18 year old who has been showing all their life & who is a 4H member, because they didn't join the  FFA

Why do you think that 4th grader should be able to step right in and compete with seniors in high school who have been fitting calves for a decade?

OK, you answered my question so here it goes...

In a showmanship/fitting class they probably will not be able to.  Nor should they.  And that is where the older, more experinced kids should have an advantage & they probably should be able to win those classes!!  However, those classes are called SHOWMANSHIP & FITTING for a reason, & because of that, they should be judged seperately & treated differently, IMHO.  Read my last post for more regarding that. 

If the aspects of showmanship/fitting is important to you, encourage shows to place more emphasis on those aspects of the youth beef projects.  Honestly, I wish more shows would do more to promote & encourage those aspects more!! 

However, we are talking about steer shows where the best calf is supposed to win.  We are not talking about the best showring exhibitor or the kid who can fit the best or who has the most experience.   Once again, it is about the best calf... period.   IMHO, nothing is wrong with a kid or their parents doing all that they can to LEGALLY & ETHICALLY make their calf become the best that it can be, when that is what a steer show is all about.  You may argue it is the kids project.  Well, you are correct.  But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat (air, pump, drug, cosmetic surgery, etc.)???  IMHO,  kids/parents are smart if they seek outside help if they are new to the game & if they are not knowledgable or skilled enough to fit themselves.  Again, it is about the best calf.  So, if a kid learns how to hire help, learns how to budget money to pay for the help & learns how to sub-contract & delegate responsibility in order to do that, can you honestly say that a kid has learned nothing valuable?  Also, if that kid has to mows yards, trim bushes, cleans gutters, work at a feed store, help a neighbor on their farm, etc, in order to make enough money to be able to afford the best fitter, or to be able to afford to pay their own feed bill or to maybe even to be able to afford to buy their own calf, how is all that not a valauble life lesson too?  I think it is VERY VALUABLE!!   Maybe if they weren't working somewhere else, maybe they could be able to afford to have that project.  You may disagree, but I would applaude that kid for being an intelligent, go-getter & a highly motivated individual!!  Also, IMHO, they may actually learn a lot more by doing that & they may even be better prepared for adulthood.  What if they are very active in church, clubs, sports, judging teams, debate teams and other activities?  IMHO, if they are doing all those things, they are going to be learning valuable things & possibly even doing a lot of good... they will also likely need help with their projects & IMHO, nothing is wrong with that at all!!  Also, what if both parents work off the farm & the kid has to do it all on their own, but is young & needs assistance/supervision?  Is it wrong for them to hire a fitter to help that kid while they are working?  IMHO, I think it is a very wise & commendable thing to do!! 

In a perfect world, every kid would break, feed, care for, rinse, wash, groom, clip, fit & show their own calves & the parents would be around for assistance/supervision.  However, this isn't a perfect world... it is actually a very hectic one.  When the contest is the best animal... period, why is it such a big deal for people to hire help?  In the "real world" that is the way things are done. 

In summary... if it was a Showmanship/Fitting class, I would totally agree with you & you would have no argument from me.  However, IMHO, that is why we have those Showmanship/Fitting classes.  Also, let me repeat that IMHO, a live animal show should be about the BEST live animal/s & making those animals become the best that they can become.  How that happens (as long as it is both legal & ethical) is not nearly as important as the kid learning how to be able to make that happen, IMHO.  This isn't a perfect world & nothing is ever going to work perfectly, nor is everything fair. 

I'm pretty opinionated & some may disagree with me.  That is OK.  We will just have to agree to disagree.   
   
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:58:21 PM by TJ »
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Offline Jeff_Schroeder

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2007, 05:41:16 PM »
The showmanship and halter breaking subjects are straw men, Im talking specifically about professional fitters at junior shows.  Im not arguing for/against halter breaking or increasing emphasis on showmanship.  Im arguing that kids should be responsible for their own projects and professional fitters are spitting on that idea by doing the kids work for them.

Quote
Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.

I figured you would go there.  Feeder/production competitions would be a great place to teach business sense but thats not what we are talking about.  Trying to apply logic regarding economics and the business world to a system where big money steers having their hair groomed more than a beauty queen and then sold for bookoos of donated money is folly at best. 

You are teaching kids that if they cant do something, they dont need to put in the effort to learn it as long as mommy and daddy are there to hire somebody to make up for their shortcomings.

Quote
I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more.

Agreed.

Hire a fitter to teach the kids if you insist on them being involved in junior shows instead of the open shows where they belong.  They still get all of the business education you claim, they learn a skill, and they are responsible for their own success or failure.

Quote
Once again, it is about the best calf... period.

If its only about the calf, why do we have a junior division and open division?  Shouldnt all cattle be shown against each other if its really all about the best calfperiod?

Quote
But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat

This is about the tenth time Ive said this but if they want to seek outside help, seek outside help to TEACH them, not do the work for them.  I addressed your shaky business education claims above.

Offline TJ

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Re: Fitters, steer jocks and kids OH MY!
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2007, 07:01:05 PM »
The showmanship and halter breaking subjects are straw men, Im talking specifically about professional fitters at junior shows.  Im not arguing for/against halter breaking or increasing emphasis on showmanship.  Im arguing that kids should be responsible for their own projects and professional fitters are spitting on that idea by doing the kids work for them.

Quote
Skills like delegating responsibility, hiring employees, sub-contracting, running a company, budgeting, etc., etc.  If you want kids to have a bright future, those are very valuable skills to have.

I figured you would go there.  Feeder/production competitions would be a great place to teach business sense but thats not what we are talking about.  Trying to apply logic regarding economics and the business world to a system where big money steers having their hair groomed more than a beauty queen and then sold for bookoos of donated money is folly at best. 

You are teaching kids that if they cant do something, they dont need to put in the effort to learn it as long as mommy and daddy are there to hire somebody to make up for their shortcomings.

Quote
I think that club calf projects can teach all of those things & more.

Agreed.

Hire a fitter to teach the kids if you insist on them being involved in junior shows instead of the open shows where they belong.  They still get all of the business education you claim, they learn a skill, and they are responsible for their own success or failure.

Quote
Once again, it is about the best calf... period.

If its only about the calf, why do we have a junior division and open division?  Shouldnt all cattle be shown against each other if its really all about the best calfperiod?

Quote
But, why is it so terrible for a kid to seek outside help as long as they don't cheat

This is about the tenth time Ive said this but if they want to seek outside help, seek outside help to TEACH them, not do the work for them.  I addressed your shaky business education claims above.



RE the best calf...  If a JR owns it & shows it, that makes it the JR's calf.  Everything else goes to the open show.


To each his own.  We may just have to agree to disagree. 

FWIW, if it were my own kids or nephews/neices, they would be raising, breaking, caring for, feeding, grooming, rinsing, washing, blowing, brushing, fitting, showing, etc. as much as possible.  I think that they will learn more that way, but I also wouldn't complain if Jane Doe's kids hired Mr. Fitter to fit their calves & if they won the live animal show.  To me, that is there right to hire that fitting help.  With that said, what my kids/nephews/neices couldn't do, I would help them myself & if I couldn't, I would find them someone who could help them, as well as teach them.  As long as it is a Steer Show & not Showmanship/Fitting, I see nothing wrong with helping when needed.

Also, I want to point out that, right or wrong, I have been appointed our counties "official youth leader" everytime that I have attended our state fair since fitters have been banned.  I never asked to do it, but was asked to do it.  I don't consider myself a pro-fitter, but I have been paid numerous times to fit for other peoples cattle for open breeding shows, so by definition, I guess I am one.  But yet, I still get appointed as our counties "youth leader" because everyone around here knows that I have a lot of experience showing cattle, I was asked & have put on a free clinic/class for all the kids in the counties beef project, I always offer to help those kids/families who need it for free anyway & I love helping mentor/teach/encourage kids.  As an appointed "youth leader"... I can do anything to to anyones calf from our county at the State Fair, as long as it is within the rules, as long as I don't get paid for doing it & as long as I help everyone from the county who asks for help & share my time equally.  Now, if I am allowed to help all the kids from this county @ a State Show, how my helping those kids any different from those same kids being allowed to hire professional help of their choice?  IMHO, it is not any different at all & I am convinced that many pro-fitters serve as youth leaders & help certain counties.  Some of those other "youth leaders" are big time & highly skilled.  And you know what?  They same people, from the same families, from the same counties that were winning when  fitters were allowed, are the same ones who are winning now that fitters are banned.  IMHO, very little has changed.  You can ban the fitters from helping at the shows, but it wont change much at all, IMHO.                           
 
FWIW, at this years county fair, I have decided to donate enough $ to match the amount paid out to the Champion & Res. Steers & to have a matching amount awarded to the Champion Showmanship/Fitter winner.  If you want to forward your cause & are serious about doing it, you should consider doing the same. 

For the final time, banning fitters will not help or solve a thing & you are not going to stop their involvement (particularly before the show... when it really counts!!) unless you encourage the kids to take an active role & encourage/promote Showmanship/Fitting classes on the a similar reward level as the regular Steer Show.  Make Showmanship/Fitting Awards more prestigous, like they should be, & that will be a giant 1st step in the right direction toward what you want to see happen. 

I appreciate your strong stance & you make some valid points... some that I agree with, some that I disagree with, but like I said, for the most part, we may just have to agree to disagree. 
http://www.kylowline.com

Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

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