Flushing ?

When you are flushing a cow do you ai the cow so you have the same sire for all the eggs then flush? or do you take the eggs out and sepretlt insemanate the eggs so you have differnt sires??

Thanks

Ai usually three times with three straws total......  The embryos are removed about seven days later.    you can use different bulls with the three straws, but you will have to sort out who is who with DNA tests unless color can determine......      I have always thought though that if you were going to flush, it should be a breeding you have enough confidence in that you would not want to mess around with more then one bull.

so you pritty much ai 3 times, then you flush and see witch bulls bred the eggs or what?

No, you AI one time 7 days prior to flushing the cow. The idea is to use more than 1 straw simply to make sure you get all the eggs fertilized. I think flushing with 3 straws is a little excessive. We have used 2 straws before and with more expensive semen used only 1 straw and the results weren't noticeably different.

Taking the eggs out and then inseminating is InVitroFertilization which is considerably more expensive than flushing.  Also IVF embryos dont tend to freeze as well as flushed embryos so it is best to have your recips set up to do fresh transfers. I typically prefer using 2 straws to AI 7 days before flushing.  3 seems a little excessive to me, 2 should be plenty to get all the eggs fertilized.

I had heard three, we are planning on flushing a cow this spring for the first time.  Purebred Limi to either RUNL STETSON or DHVO Deuce (anyone on here has info on Deuce other then what I see in catalogues please shoot me an email).....  The ET guy told me he perferrs to do fresh transfers whenever possible cause he thinks there are some eggs that dont survive freezing that will make babies....  Our plan is to freeze but if we have a few that are cycling we might do some fresh as well....  hope to flush ahead of our normal breeding time.  Two or three may depend heavily on how much the semen is.....  a Heat Wave straw at a few hundred per might have me thinking 1-2, but for something less expensive with all the other costs involved another 40-60 bucks isnt that much if it gets all the eggs covered...

After all the time I have done ET work, I still laugh when I read some of the techniques some places are still reccommending. I quit breeding more than once over 20 years ago, and if anything, the fertilization percentage went UP, not down.

I breed one time, but I alays try and use 2 units of semen when ever the cost is not prohibitive for the customer. I do however, HORN breed them, so that each side of the uterus will get one full unit of semen. The key here is timing. If you hit her wront -- too early or too late -- it won't matter if you put a whole CANE of semen in her, she won't fertilize properly.

In the entire industry, I fully believe the fertilization percentage of all eggs collected is well under 70 % -- maybe even lower. During the last 10 years at least, breeding as indicated above, we are running very close to 97% -- in other words -- about 3-4 eggs out of every 100 are not fertile. There will always be a small percantage of eggs that fertiilize, but for some reason will die outright, or have significant abnormalities to the point where they will not freeze, or even transfer. These we all call degenerate embryos. They are usually discarded.

A huge amount of the success is the superovulation process. In this case -- LESS is best when in doubt. I always feel it is better to wish you had given them a little bit more than to be sorry you blew her up and ruined the cow, or at least all the eggs were junk.

I breed one time, but ON TIME.

Terry

Cowboy said:

After all the time I have done ET work, I still laugh when I read some of the techniques some places are still reccommending. I quit breeding more than once over 20 years ago, and if anything, the fertilization percentage went UP, not down.

I breed one time, but I alays try and use 2 units of semen when ever the cost is not prohibitive for the customer. I do however, HORN breed them, so that each side of the uterus will get one full unit of semen. The key here is timing. If you hit her wront -- too early or too late -- it won't matter if you put a whole CANE of semen in her, she won't fertilize properly.

In the entire industry, I fully believe the fertilization percentage of all eggs collected is well under 70 % -- maybe even lower. During the last 10 years at least, breeding as indicated above, we are running very close to 97% -- in other words -- about 3-4 eggs out of every 100 are not fertile. There will always be a small percantage of eggs that fertiilize, but for some reason will die outright, or have significant abnormalities to the point where they will not freeze, or even transfer. These we all call degenerate embryos. They are usually discarded.

A huge amount of the success is the superovulation process. In this case -- LESS is best when in doubt. I always feel it is better to wish you had given them a little bit more than to be sorry you blew her up and ruined the cow, or at least all the eggs were junk.

I breed one time, but ON TIME.

Terry

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Terry, it sounds like you do things remarkably like the fellow that does our flushing. Since we started going to him, we've had tremendous results. We use less semen and less superovulation drugs than every before, and we're collecting more viable embryos.  What's better, we have higher conception rates now than ever before.  A couple years ago i really wanted to get a couple donors out to you, but it was just too far, and you were pretty full up. Too bad that couldn't work out, but at least we have a guy that seems to be in line with how you operate.

Some weeks ago had my first experience with ET. Twice AI, with one straws semen per AI.
One donor was AI with two differente Shorthorn bulls, DNA analyses will define sire of course.
Four cows were flush and got 13 embryos to be frozen. Two donors cows produced lots of non fertilized embryos (19 structures olny one cow).
Also inovulate 12 frozen embryos, producing only 5 pregnacies (41% rate) was so disapointed with result, as embryos were from very good donors.
Some imported embryos from UK show good flushing rates, an Aberdeen Angus donor produced 42 embryos!! A Shorthorn cow 15 embryos and a Belted Galloway 9 embryos!!
At least understood that ET is a biological procedure, unhappily not mathematic.
Hope get better rates in future as for flush as for inovulations.

so you can do it either way or is there just one way? cause ive heard both ways here

We have always used one bull. Especially if you are going to sell embryos people want a guarantee on the sire not possibities on what it could be. Plus if you just do one bull you dont have to worry about dna testing every calf which is more expense. We breed twice and have had good luck in our flush numbers. We have froze all of ours and I have had good conception rates on mine. I also take mine to an ET center and then its their responsibility to administer the drugs and do the leg work.

Carlson Cattle said:

so you can do it either way or is there just one way? cause ive heard both ways here

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Ai then flush

Limiman12 said:

I had heard three, we are planning on flushing a cow this spring for the first time.   Purebred Limi to either RUNL STETSON or DHVO Deuce (anyone on here has info on Deuce other then what I see in catalogues please shoot me an email).....   The ET guy told me he perferrs to do fresh transfers whenever possible cause he thinks there are some eggs that dont survive freezing that will make babies....   Our plan is to freeze but if we have a few that are cycling we might do some fresh as well....   hope to flush ahead of our normal breeding time.   Two or three may depend heavily on how much the semen is.....   a Heat Wave straw at a few hundred per might have me thinking 1-2, but for something less expensive with all the other costs involved another 40-60 bucks isnt that much if it gets all the eggs covered...

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Limiman I used to work for a limousin operation, and Duece was by far our favorite bull. He would put the look in to calves, with massive rib, super deep, and stout. We bred him to just about everything from purebred calves, to purebred angus. If I could knock them I would say they can get a little heavier fronted on the right cow, but all in all we liked ours.

Here in Brazil, for embryos that will produce registered cattle, ALL calves must to be DNA analysed. Same that all by an unique bull. The probability for "mistakes" are minimized. Agree with this.

I dont know about all breeds but for herefords the cow has to be dna and all ai bulls do so when registering that is already done.

so you pritty much double straw (AI twice) with the same bull. then in 7 days you flush

Terry,  when do you breed.  At 12 hours from standing?

obie105 said:

I dont know about all breeds but for herefords the cow has to be dna and all ai bulls do so when registering that is already done.

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This is true in Simmis also, HOWEVER, if you sell the eggs the buyer has to DNA the calves when they are born to verify. If you put your own eggs in you do not have to DNA.

Most of you folks are a long ways from me out here in Neb, we are so slow this past year and even now due to the drought it is pathetic. We have abut a dozen donors here, and the closest one to home is over 400 miles. For the first time in history, all but one cow out there is a Shorthorn. Some of these tend to be a little tuff to make work, but that is why they are here and not in some large center where they are just a number on the wall. Long story.

To answer your question about timing, I spent alot of time in the early years breeding these cows multiple times, why I did that was beyond me, but as far as the professors were concerned, that is what needed done. I was always dissapointed with the results. All that work, all the stress on the cows just to get half the eggs fertile. I said that was enough. These donors are no different than a regular cow in heat. Just because they are going to ovulate more than one does NOT mean they are going to do it for hours on end and even days. It just does not work that way.

I never touch a cow until she is completely OUT of heat -- and I mean tired and laying down resting -- for at least 6 hours. I could care less what time that makes me go out to the chute, it is HER deal and HER time -- if you let the cow dictate when she is ready, you will never be sorry. Use GOOD semen, go in there one time and get it done right, and leave her be.

I have never told, commercially any way, how I do things here. But now, I am pushing 60 this fall, I won't be able to do this forever. What is the point of keeping it a secret ?? I wait till the cow is at least 6 to 8 hours past standing, or even trying to ride. Nothing going on. I go there with 2 units of semen, I will place that semen one unit per horn just a couple inches forward of the cervix to make sure each side has a complete unit in it so that there is no chance of scar tissue from calving preventing even distribution up the horns. This works extremely well. As I said, most people laugh when I tell them we get over 95% fertilized eggs from these cows. It is not hard to do IF you wait and be patient. It is nothing for me to be out there at 2 AM breeding a cow -- of course I start these in the evening, so they are in strong heat in the AM when it is all said and done.

Didn't mean to make this so long -- sorry. I am very pasionate about what I do here, nothing will make me more unhappy that to go flush a cow and find a bunch of unfertilized eggs. Timing is second ONLY to semen quality -- if you screw the pooch there, it won't matter how good the semen is -- it just won't get it done! Leave her alone -- WAIT - you won't be sorry!

Good luck to every one -- I hope we can keep things going this year, if it stays dry here another year -- we may be done for. Love the area, hate the weather, and wish every one was closer! Oh well

Terry

Carlson Cattle said:

so you pritty much double straw (AI twice) with the same bull. then in 7 days you flush

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I'm not sure you're feeling like your questions have been answered...or that the process is making sense to you. It can get confusing because everybody has a different protocol, but the basic process involves superovulation, breeding, and then flushing. You have to start your donor on shots that will make her produce more eggs...that's call superovulation. Some cows make 4 and some make 40. It can be a crap shoot, especially when you're starting with a cow that has never been flushed before and you don't know how she'll respond to any regime. After superovulation, every protocol will involve bringing the cow into heat in order to breed her at the right time to fertilize those eggs...a lot of people differ in how and when and how many straws...the important thing is timing, just like you're breeding any other cow, and using good quality semen because you hope to be fertilizing lots of eggs and not just one. In any straw of semen, though, there should be enough sperm to get the job done. Timing...that's important! The reason a lot of people use 2 or 3 straws of semen is just for insurance. Plus every egg that donor drops doesn't drop at the exact same moment, so spreading out the breeding process gives you a larger window on...yes...TIMING!

The flush happens seven days after the donor is inseminated. The embryos will have traveled into the uterus in order to attach, but Day 7 is before implantation occurs, so they're basically just in there waiting. Fluids are pushed into the uterus and then suctioned back out, "flushing" the uterus of all its contents, including the embryos. Then the embryologist separates the embryos in a dish under a microscope and gets them ready to either implant fresh embryos into a recip that is also on Day 7 of HER cycle...or you freeze the embryos just like semen and store them until you're ready to put them into a recipient.

That's a fairly simple explanation of the process. We don't do a lot of flushing, so that may not be the BEST explanation. And I left out several details you need to know if you're actually DOING it, but those are kind of the basics.