? for the Shorthorn Experts.

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RyanChandler

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good point, Gary-  I realize there are many cattle with genetic limitations but I feel fairly confident that with the right ration, most if not all cattle can grade choice.  It's just not profitable for all to be fed this way. 
 

knabe

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-XBAR- said:
good point, Gary-  I realize there are many cattle with genetic limitations but I feel fairly confident that with the right ration, most if not all cattle can grade choice.  It's just not profitable for all to be fed this way.


it's not profitable to feed the number of cattle we are feeding to choice anymore. that's why people aren't doing it. this however, is the perfect storm to identify marbling genetics, ie in a limited feed situation. it might also take away some backfat. visual appraisal might be difficult for premium carcass feeding and require some sort of internal visualization or other means such as parentage ID, specific crosses such as with waygu or other means.
 

r.n.reed

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I agree with your thoughts guys but you didn't really address my question.Do most Shorthorns only have the ability to marble to a certain point say avg choice for example and then from that point forward they only deposit fat on the outside of the carcass.
Nate you have your work cut out for you.2+2 does not always equal 4 an example is Rodeo Drive.His sire is.33 for marbling .75 acc his dam is.15 .56acc and he himself is.41 .89acc.
I guess if I was going to start a prime program I would go to herds like Lauer,Lovings and Haumonts etc,herds that have fed a lot of steers from their programs in commercial feedlots for multiple years and look for the outliers and see if any pattern develops that leads to a certain bull or female.
I also wonder if once you get started and start producing these cattle reliably if their type might begin to look more and more like a Wagyu and what you might give up in the other production phases.
 

nate53

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r.n.reed said:
So my question is this,Does the fact that a specific animal consistently produces low to avg.choice animals guarantee the fact that with a change in the feeding program or extension of a feeding program,a high percentage of those offspring will go prime?
  No!  From my experience, I would say that most cattle if fed right can grade choice.  But to get a high rate of prime, one would need the right genetics.  So genetics, type of feed, and length of time on feed all contribute greatly to the end results. IMO

Also on the scenario you gave I would ask what Yield Grade were they at when they graded low to avg. choice.  That would potentially determine if there was any potential benefit to feeding them longer.  Basically YG1 choice vrs. YG4 choice.  So if the YG1 choice would have been fed to YG3 or 4 (possibly it would have become prime).  So basically if your not feeding to YG3 or 4, you really don't know what those genetics are capable of. 

I'm not really interested in YG1 prime, if I wanted that I would go look at the Wagyu's. ;D
 

JoeBnTN

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Interesting discussion but we seem to be missing a major point.  Since the 70's the market has been paying a premium for leaner cattle that fed to an acceptable grade standard, which for most meant a YG2, Low Choice target.  This is where Shorthorns have historically excelled, producing adequately muscled carcasses to meet the YG2 standard while marbling easy enough to meet the Choice range.  So the fact that they don't have large numbers of bulls capable of meeting a Prime standard isn't surprising -- in fact, few breeds have genetics that are designed for that, the market has not dictated an increased value or need for them.

 

CRS

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Really kind of surprised that JTM has not weighed in here.  He has a purebred and mixed herd and has been cutting up his own cattle for a while now, he would have some great information for you.  If he doesn't post you ought to PM him.
 

knabe

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JoeBnTN said:
Interesting discussion but we seem to be missing a major point.  Since the 70's the market has been paying a premium for leaner cattle that fed to an acceptable grade standard, which for most meant a YG2, Low Choice target.  This is where Shorthorns have historically excelled, producing adequately muscled carcasses to meet the YG2 standard while marbling easy enough to meet the Choice range.  So the fact that they don't have large numbers of bulls capable of meeting a Prime standard isn't surprising -- in fact, few breeds have genetics that are designed for that, the market has not dictated an increased value or need for them.


agree.  just thought something would pop up through diversity alone with that data.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Back in the day: 3w Payoff was the top carcus-CE bull at the Marc Study-Clay Nebraska-HS Rodeo Drive did well too:but was not CE-there were 2 sons that were-Waukaru Candidate,and FHF Rodeos Hope-(Gator) also the Grandsire of Kolts White Doner O0
 

sue

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Who wants the sister mates to the Yield grade 1 or 2 steers, not me ? 
 

RyanChandler

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Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.
 

knabe

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-XBAR- said:
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.


why would they be larger maturing or later maturing? if they have IM fat, but mature the same, isn't that a good thing? they of course won't look the same bcs.


i wish there was a large data set on scanned cattle at two week or monthly intervals, also with the cattle at different starting weights throughout the year.  anecdotal evidence is that cattle marble more in the fall due to photoperiodism. would like to see that with scans with cattle at different ages on the same date with enough cattle to control for variance.
 

nate53

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Until someone raises YG1 animals that grade prime and actually look and perform on the maternal side.  Until then no I am not interested.  I guess if it was a totally terminal line it would be okay, but if one did that why not use Wagyu and be done with it?

What is the live weight of a YG1 steer?  Depends are you talking 4 frame YG1 or 8 frame YG1?  ;D

I guess the point of this topic was to see if there is any shorty sires available that have sired a reasonable rate of prime calves.  I guess there isn't any shorthorns available to do this, because nobody has bothered to find out.  I guess it's back to the proven angus genetics (I'll keep playing with it on the shorties).  Why would it be reasonable for angus seedstock operations to figure this out but not shorties?

On a #850 pound carcass right now YG3 or 1 or 2, the difference between choice and prime is $17.17 vrs. $179.86 premium per head.  I would agree it doesn't always pay to feed for prime.  But for cow calf operations who grow their own feed and feed the animals out themselves.  It makes sense to do it most of the time. 
 

JoeBnTN

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Nate,

A large part of the basic answer is the fact that the Angus breed has a broader gene pool and much greater numbers.  With their CAB program and other marketing they have found ways to effectively utilize and market cattle of many diverse types and traits. 

What for me would be important to know is, for those cattle with the highest marbling potential, what impact does that have on other traits like muscling, growth rate and size, feed efficiency, etc. as many of these are antagonistic.  So can these Angus cattle with the ability to grade Prime also produce carcasses with acceptable muscling and external fat, while converting at an economically viable rate or are we talking about 1050 lb. steers with 9" REA? One thing that previous data has shown is that our cattle can compete across almost all breeds when put on a constant end point basis (i.e. 1250 lb, 16 months old steers with .5 in fat).

I'm glad you raised the question -- it's an issue we need to look at and something the breed should pay attention to.  Good luck in your search.

The other thing to keep in mind, due to numbers, is that Angus breed has far more 2-3 frames (and they had more 8-10 frames when we were all liking them big), has more genetic mutations, more high WW and YW cattle, etc.  No matter what trait your looking for (outside color) the Angus breed will have more.  That's not an indictment on Shorthorns, it's just a reality.

 

JoeBnTN

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-XBAR- said:
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.
Ryan,

To some degree their weight would depend on how they were fed and managed.  I was part of a USDA project that proved that across type (frame and muscle) feeding and management was responsible for more than 50% of the outcome.  By manipulation of feeding time and energy level we could "burn up" the later maturing larger cattle and get them to an acceptable YG, QG and slaughter weight.  At the same time, by "slow walking" the little early maturing ones, we could stretch them into a similar category.  The biggest variables were time and financial considerations and neither the larger cattle or the earlier maturing cattle excelled in total $ return.

 

RyanChandler

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JoeBnTN said:
-XBAR- said:
Right, I realize that- but Sue's point was to imply the sister mates out of yg1 or 2 cattle would mature larger than she would prefer.  I was just curious the avg live weight of cattle that grade yg1 or 2.
Ryan,

To some degree their weight would depend on how they were fed and managed.  I was part of a USDA project that proved that across type (frame and muscle) feeding and management was responsible for more than 50% of the outcome.  By manipulation of feeding time and energy level we could "burn up" the later maturing larger cattle and get them to an acceptable YG, QG and slaughter weight.  At the same time, by "slow walking" the little early maturing ones, we could stretch them into a similar category.  The biggest variables were time and financial considerations and neither the larger cattle or the earlier maturing cattle excelled in total $ return.

Makes sense.  I went to a feedlot a 2 summers ago and they were feeding Holstein steers and commercial steers all the same ration which was over 50% roughage.  The commentator made several references to the Holsteins taking so long to finish and faulted them for how big they were they finally did get enough cover.  I couldn't understand why they wouldn't put the steins on a much higher energy ration than the beef calves.  Dairy calves can and do grade as good as anything- but they have to be fed right.  I've finished out Holsteins that were fat as a tick and ready to kill at 1100lbs.  But they were on free choice whole corn feeders and a protein/rumensin supplement for 7 months.  --I can't imagine what the COG was--  And that's where you run into the financial consideration you're talking about, whats the cost of gain on a Stein that grades high choice but only converted an 80% corn ration at 10:1?  The more I think about it the more my head spins.  There are so many variables to take into account- most importantly grid spreads. 
 
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