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Offline Aussie

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Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« on: January 19, 2019, 02:00:09 AM »
What is the go with Angus show females now. These frail weak cattle with no constitution, no real muscle, no real depth are just man made rubbish. They are a completely different breed to what the commercial world want and need. I know this is a show site but surely the cattle shown should have some relevance to the industry.  (pop)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 02:01:42 AM by Aussie »

Offline WinterSpringsFarm

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 07:25:46 PM »
Totally agree and looking forward to the responses

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 11:16:04 PM »
Im not an Angus expert but since they are considered the only cattle on earth back here I am inclined to think the same on the ones with the political breeding at shows- they all seem to have these really ugly pyramid tailheads that ruin the look from behind-and I havent seen one in years with sound rear legs (or more)  or any substance at all compared to the Canadian or Aussie cattle Ive seen pictures of. The last bull I saw up here that did anything for me was DEB Juneau or Hotrod-who may have been his sire I go by the doner pen at Whitestone Angus alot those cows will never see a day away from a feedbunk-and just like their genetic predecessors SHORTHORNS-Angus are some of the greatest crossing cattle-but sure are ugly in the purest form O0

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 07:19:18 PM »
I think that show ring cattle throughout history have proven to be the wrong type for the commercial cow/calf producer. There were points in time where they were optimal (I think), but according to experts/breed leaders? if you aren't changing them then you aren't improving. So if a bit of something is good then we should breed for more and more of it.

Currently that happens to be tight fronted, narrow chested, weak topped, high tailheads, improper pin set (too high) and way over fat. That's the fancy feminine look. And it isn't just Angus I see it in all the breeds.

Offline knabe

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 07:26:01 PM »
what else are you going to do with culls

Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 07:48:33 AM »
Aussie, I've told you this but I thought I'd share my thoughts here as well.   I think a lot of it has to do with the judging programs that we raise these kids in.  We teach them that if a trait is good, more is better.  Now most of us know there are optimal levels of traits but it's really hard to teach that, especially at a young age. So the system gets dumbed down.  Then the big money gets involved and like Willow Springs said, if things aren't changing they aren't improving so those guys push the traits to extremes so they can raise the next breed changer...over and over again.  Notice how none of this has anything to do with beef cattle?  It's about competition, promotion, glory, and money.  Beef industry improvement is/was never on the table.

Offline vc

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 09:34:16 AM »
What is wrong with this heifer? I'm asking so I can understand what one should be looking for.

Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 10:46:16 AM »
What is wrong with this heifer? I'm asking so I can understand what one should be looking for.

I'll bite...That long slender neck, long narrow head, and tight chest means (to me) that she will be a hard doing cow that doesn't last 2 years in a ranch type environment.  She needs to be a bit deeper in her chest relative to her belly.  This swooping belly line people look for is nothing but fat.

And if those 2 pics are the same heifer, she has been photoshopped enough in the second one that I can hardly tell... Her neck, shoulder angle is completely different and she appears about a foot longer in the second picture. In the first picture she turns out on her front wheels and she's square in the second picture.

Offline knabe

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 11:44:08 AM »
i think i would change judging in the following way.


most do this but the lessons don't seem to be learned.


visit programs with older cows on the ranch, judge them, then have owner tell about them.


i never did any good on judging because i kept picking the slightly above the middle of the road cattle instead of the extremes.  i remember one time at a hereford ranch specifically, i picked out a bull to lead a class and he was as i described. everyone else buried him except the owner who said he was out of his best line of cows.  didn't matter, the judging coach and all the rest didn't like them and we moved on to the next ranch and picked out the extreme cattle.  i think next up was a charolais ranch and they had cows over 2000 lbs.


another time, we had some steers we were taking to la county fair with the college.  everyone who judged classes picked out the most extreme steer time and time again. Jarold callaghan picked out the one to be fair champion that everyone buried time after time after time. 


i don't get it either, "everyone" says we want the choke necked goose fronted whatever the latest term is for cattle that don't seem to exist or excel in a real world environment.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:44:52 AM by knabe »

Offline j3cattleco

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 12:08:53 PM »
What is wrong with this heifer? I'm asking so I can understand what one should be looking for.

I'll bite...That long slender neck, long narrow head, and tight chest means (to me) that she will be a hard doing cow that doesn't last 2 years in a ranch type environment.  She needs to be a bit deeper in her chest relative to her belly.  This swooping belly line people look for is nothing but fat.

And if those 2 pics are the same heifer, she has been photoshopped enough in the second one that I can hardly tell... Her neck, shoulder angle is completely different and she appears about a foot longer in the second picture. In the first picture she turns out on her front wheels and she's square in the second picture.

I haven't posted in quite some time and try to stay out of these opinion based conversations, however I HATE when people make carpet statements off of cattle pictures.  You state that the heifer turns out in the top pic and is square in the bottom pic?  You can't see her feet or her dew claws in the bottom one.  How can you make such a statement.  Also I understand the thought of tighter necked females being harder doing, however shouldn't we be trying to produce cattle we like to look at?  If you like the chubbier necked deeper chested females rock on!  Show those and don't care how they are placed.  I like my cows to be cool looking and have been working very hard to get them cool looking and easy fleshing.  My cows are too small and too stout for the big shows lately.  I'll be damned if Im going to pull the muscle out of them, because I have seen calving issues with these heifers that don't have enough to them.  But every cattle man needs to raise the cattle that makes him the most money and the type he wants to.  The last thing we should be doing is telling others how to run their cow herd.  If we all raised the same type there wouldn't be any ability for smaller producers to create a market for their calves.  Lets just let others raise the kind they like and support their decisions even if they're not the kind you would raise in your pastures. 
"You can have whatever you want if, you help enough other people get what they want!'  Zig Ziglar

Offline knabe

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 01:02:10 PM »
Patton: if everyone is thinking the same, someone isn't thinking.

Offline vc

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 01:04:45 PM »
First off nyk, I do love the heifer you posted in the past, and if I was picking replacement heifers she is the type.

Here is a portion of and article I found, it basically confirms what you are saying, show heifers do tend to go one direction as far as type and look.

An Ideal Breeding Heifer:
Structurally Sound and Correct:
All four feet facing forward, legs and joints correct, with adequate set and angularity.
Takes a long, smooth, stride.  Back feet placed where front feet let off.
Level and square hipped, and level topped.
Bold-Ribbed:
Big and expressive through center of body.
deep-middled.
tying into a shallow but wide chest floor.
Balanced and Eye Appealing:
Smooth shoulder, tying into feminine and clean front end.
Feminine and appealing to look at.
Adequate Muscle:  While a powerful female is often successful, there is a fine line that divides one from a terminal market heifer. If you feel that one is close, it is okay to get several opinions on how one should be shown. A breeding heifer should still show some muscle expression over her top, rump and quarter, but not be overly massive like a steer.
Ideal Conditioned:

As long as judges are picking a type, breeders are going to breed that type, and the people showing are going to pick that type.

As for her front feet, it must be the picture, in other photos they appear to run north and south.


Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2019, 01:36:48 PM »
What is wrong with this heifer? I'm asking so I can understand what one should be looking for.

I'll bite...That long slender neck, long narrow head, and tight chest means (to me) that she will be a hard doing cow that doesn't last 2 years in a ranch type environment.  She needs to be a bit deeper in her chest relative to her belly.  This swooping belly line people look for is nothing but fat.

And if those 2 pics are the same heifer, she has been photoshopped enough in the second one that I can hardly tell... Her neck, shoulder angle is completely different and she appears about a foot longer in the second picture. In the first picture she turns out on her front wheels and she's square in the second picture.

I haven't posted in quite some time and try to stay out of these opinion based conversations, however I HATE when people make carpet statements off of cattle pictures.  You state that the heifer turns out in the top pic and is square in the bottom pic?  You can't see her feet or her dew claws in the bottom one.  How can you make such a statement.  Also I understand the thought of tighter necked females being harder doing, however shouldn't we be trying to produce cattle we like to look at?  If you like the chubbier necked deeper chested females rock on!  Show those and don't care how they are placed.  I like my cows to be cool looking and have been working very hard to get them cool looking and easy fleshing.  My cows are too small and too stout for the big shows lately.  I'll be damned if Im going to pull the muscle out of them, because I have seen calving issues with these heifers that don't have enough to them.  But every cattle man needs to raise the cattle that makes him the most money and the type he wants to.  The last thing we should be doing is telling others how to run their cow herd.  If we all raised the same type there wouldn't be any ability for smaller producers to create a market for their calves.  Lets just let others raise the kind they like and support their decisions even if they're not the kind you would raise in your pastures.
I agree 100% with you in regards to each person doing their own thing.  That's what we do and will all continue to do. That's the beauty of the beef cattle industry.  There's a place for each and every type.  The original question was in regards to the frail type that are winning shows - which you also seem to dislike.

Blanket statements seem to be the norm and I apologize in that regard.  The question was what's wrong with that heifer's phenotype and I stated my opinion on how I would change her which is my opinion and nothing more.  In my opinion easy fleshing high producing cattle are cool to look at. I have never selected for, or against a longer neck but I have hauled more open cows to the auction mart with long slender heads and necks than I have squarer made types.

Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2019, 01:44:38 PM »
First off nyk, I do love the heifer you posted in the past, and if I was picking replacement heifers she is the type.

Here is a portion of and article I found, it basically confirms what you are saying, show heifers do tend to go one direction as far as type and look.

An Ideal Breeding Heifer:
Structurally Sound and Correct:
All four feet facing forward, legs and joints correct, with adequate set and angularity.
Takes a long, smooth, stride.  Back feet placed where front feet let off.
Level and square hipped, and level topped.
Bold-Ribbed:
Big and expressive through center of body.
deep-middled.
tying into a shallow but wide chest floor.
Balanced and Eye Appealing:
Smooth shoulder, tying into feminine and clean front end.
Feminine and appealing to look at.
Adequate Muscle:  While a powerful female is often successful, there is a fine line that divides one from a terminal market heifer. If you feel that one is close, it is okay to get several opinions on how one should be shown. A breeding heifer should still show some muscle expression over her top, rump and quarter, but not be overly massive like a steer.
Ideal Conditioned:

As long as judges are picking a type, breeders are going to breed that type, and the people showing are going to pick that type.

As for her front feet, it must be the picture, in other photos they appear to run north and south.
Thank you VC for the kind words.  I just work at raising what I like and let the chips fall as they may.

Statements like:
Shallow but wide chest floor.
Makes me scratch my head. What is the logic behind wanting a shallow chest floor? And if they really want a wide chest to compensate for the depth they are selecting against, how do they propose doing that with a super slender, elegant front?

Offline formersteerjock

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Re: Frail Angus Show Hfrs
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2019, 09:23:38 PM »
I wish the Angus breed and breeders could find middle ground. The low birth weight cattle are light muscled and many of the show Angus sires have enough bone, muscle and rib but need to milk better. Its hard to have it all.

 

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