Fullblood Simmental Project

caledon101 said:

Hereford Guy.....couldn't agree more.
I don't miss those 135 lb bull calves that came 12 days overdue and were too heavy and dopey to stand up without assistance to nurse. I have no fond memories of contracted tendons that made some calves completely knuckle over on their pasterns....or, the hard calvings either. 
What I do recall are the many great attributes those old fullbloods delivered.
Yes, they were bigger cows than what the industry finds acceptable today. But, no real talent is required to reduce size, performance and frame score. It's going in the other direction that can really be painful.
The proven cow families I am focusing on were some of the best. A cross on a homo red, polled modern purebred sire could be really something. It's a fun project and worth pursuing I think.

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I agree with all the points you make. Keep us updated with the results!

Here is a Swiss AI stud with beed Simmental bulls: http://www.swissgenetics.com/Beef.336.0.html
Here is a fench sale catalogue: herds.http://www.simmentalfrance.fr/images/stories/actualites/cournon_catalogue_%202014.pdf The bull willie looks like a good bet.
Somrthing to consider;  The French, Swiss and Germans are trading bulls so plenty of German sinnental is in the Swiss and French herds.

It has now been a full year since we initiated the project of implanting fullblood Simmental embryo's harvested back in the early 90's. The original intent was to generate some "new" outcross genetics for today. The attached pictures are of a bull calf born this month.....he is 5 days old in the pictures. He is predominantly composed of French bloodlines with a small infusion of Swiss deeper into his pedigree. No Fleckvieh genetics.  Bar 5 Exodus 541L  x Select Tara (Tosca cow family)
From my early days producing fullbloods my initial impression of him is very favourable. I will share information on his progress as we move forward.

We had a breeder up the road from our farm,who has been dead for years,Murray Older,he had the best looking fullbloods back in the day,i always liked looking at his cows and listening to him talk about them.

Now 12 days old....getting interesting.

The dam to RS&T Homeboy was a multi show winner for Klein Kattle Kompany out of Ravenna Mi , with the old school simmy genetics and him id be worried about bw

If the cow has the pelvic size and the bull throws the right conformation, birth weight does not have to be as much of a concern.  You can compare the Simmental calving ease EPD with the birth weight EPD to get an idea on calf conformation as to if you need to be concerned

The Simmental breed has hugely evolved over the past 2 decades and, understandably so. The drive to address birth weight issues in particular. But, it all came with a price I believe. WPDA, milk, muscle expression and overall udder quality. I have seen many good uddered blacks and reds but also plenty that are not. Top quality reds and blacks are very good cattle and I don't want anyone to think that I disagree with how the industry has evolved.
Not all of the old fullblood genetics from 30-40 years ago would be considered worthy of revival but there are definitely some very good lines with excellent progeny data that could be and should be re-utilized. These bloodlines would represent "new" genetics for today.
What I find unfortunate is that many breeders seem to think that "fullblood" means it must be Fleckvieh. The best fullblood genetics imported came from Switzerland and France. Yes, some good ones came out of Austria and Germany but many of the original Fleck's from those two countries had too many structural issues. That was the reputation and talk back then.

about 3 weeks old now

Simbeef10 said:

  You can compare the Simmental calving ease EPD with the birth weight EPD to get an idea on calf conformation as to if you need to be concerned

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I think that comparison provides more insight as far as the the type of cow the bull has been bred to rather than the conformation of the calf. 

Any time you see a bull with a high calving ease epd along with an above or close to average bw Epd, it should be inferred that the bull's CE is so because he's been selectively bred to some monster sized cows that can calve unassisted to him despite the monstrous bw's. Saskvalley Navajo is a bull that comes to mind here-- a bull with a 115lb bw but a +7 CE.    You use a bull like this on a common group of heifers and his CE  epd would end up closer to -7, coincidentally right around where his bw epd suggests it belonged from the beginning. 

This project/experiment wasn't intended to generate show calves that would walk into Louisville and win. The intent was to re-generate top, proven genetics that could "potentially" be of value to the Simmental breed today.
The common thing heard is that new genetics are needed; too much emphasis has been placed on specific bloodlines. This is typical of probably all the breeds. It isn't unusual to find CF Trump 4 or 5 times in the same Shorthorn pedigree and Dream On/Legacy is overly common in Simmental pedigrees according to some.
So, the idea is to take a chance! Implant some original fullblood genetics that are highly proven and see if there is a way to utilize this "new" genetic material. Does it have any real value? That's the question I suppose. 
This calf should definitely peak the interest of any fullblood enthusiasts looking to add some performance, style and outcross genetics to their programs. His pedigree is fleckvieh free; almost entirely French lineage with a touch of Swiss.
A long way to go before it's fair to appraise this calf; he might work out or, he might not. From my past experience producing these same genetics 30 years ago I definitely like this calf thus far. Eye and scrotal pigmentation and very good structurally. His genetics were considered to be quite "moderate" in type back in the 80's! 

-xbar- makes a good point if you are looking at a low accuracy bull that may still change a lot, but the .80+ bulls will let you identify conformation of the calves.  The Simmental breed can definitely use some influx of older genetics as the maternal traits have gone way too much in the wrong direction.  Bulls that were a little above average in milk production 20 years ago are now rated in the top 10% of the breed for the same trait while an extremely easy calving ease bull 20 years ago is below breed average now.  We just need to improve the balance of the traits.

Thanks Simbeef;  this calf is from the RFG Tosca 1G cow family. I believe she was, through her progeny the greatest revenue generating beef female every imported. Especially if you adjust the $$ to account for inflation.
The maternal value (milk, fertility, WPDA) of this bull calf is off the charts if you study the cow families involved.
I was hoping for a heifer when we implanted the embryo but I will take a very good bull calf over an average quality heifer calf any day.
The big question is, how do you effectively inject these "new" genetics into the existing gene pool? The plan was to produce a heifer and then cross her and/or her daughters with modern, polled, red sires. The combination is potentially very interesting!

I would look at using him with a black base to produce polled black (potentially blaze face) replacements.  Most of the current red genetics have black bulls in their background i.e. Dream On (who will throw reds) and you could use this bull to produce hetero black and hetero black.  From those first crosses, you can provide something for either red or black portions of the industry including breeding back to black if that is your direction and could be homo black and homo polled with that second generation providing a good out-cross to the current options.

Simbeef....if he was used on black females what would happen re: color...dilutors?

Hi Caledon - If the cows are homo black, you will get a black or grey (assuming he has the dilution gene which can not be determined from his pictures).  If the cows are hetero black, you could also see red or yellow calves.  You can have him tested to see if he carries the dilution gene so you have a better idea of what color calves he would throw.

Now at 4 mos of age and starting to show potential.

This just tickles me no end.  After a hiatus from cattle in the 90s imagine my surprise to come back to find that all those beautiful yellow cattle were gone.  My dad imported a bunch of FB cattle into Canada in the 70s and I had a couple of his girls up into the early 2000s.  Without a place to keep them they were absorbed into a commercial herd.  Most regretable as he had some beautiful girls. 

Our AI tech still has some of the old bulls (Signal, Extra, Beat) in his tank...wanted me to use them on my milk cow.  I opted out of that 

Were there any more embryos that were fertile?

I have attached a Signal x Extra x imported cow I showed back in the day.  She was an amazing brood cow.

Caledon101, I have also transferred so old traditional simmental genetics
Cow families are some of the best of Bar 5
604Y, 600C and 390c
Sire are Extra Best 87K, Paymaster and Heavyhitter. I like you think they could help the current trend but mainly doing the project because I just like the cattle

So I wonder what he looks like now and if there are any calves due this year