Fullblood Simmental Project

How do you feel about using bulls from even further back like King Arthur or Sir Arnold.  I liked the Paymaster bull back in the day and wonder if you would ever use any of the other Bar 5 Fleck bulls.  Also what will you do for calving ease?  All the bulls you mention are not calving ease.  Would you use Champs Romano for this purpose to maintain fullblood status?

caledon101 said:

Now at 4 mos of age and starting to show potential.

Click to expand...

calf's rear pasterns actually look like they are bending backwards.


any update on the calf?

King Arthur would definitely not be used on anything other than cows that have calved several times.  Sir Arnold and Paymaster are both top 10% of the fullblood population for calving ease and could easily be used on heifers.  You need to know your animals and what they can handle.  The average Simmi now is easier calving than some of those considered extremely easy calving back in the day i.e. Eagle's calving ease number is 4.1 with 3.4# birth weight and the average for purebred's is 9.3 calving ease and 1.8# birth weight. What did they give up to achieve the calving ease - maternal milk and maternal weaning weight again Eagle is now top 10% of the breed at 30.3# milk with breed average purebred at 21.2# vs average Fullblood at 32.3#
Bar 5 had their dispersal last Fall, so some of those old bulls will be very hard to find if you did want to use them and although the calving ease is more geared toward cows than heifers, the growth and maternal values are still some of the best in the breed

The big problem with using older bloodlines as outcross is that the successful bloodlines in North America are already well represented in the herd book if you go back far enough in pedigrees today.  This means they actually aren't outcross.  Some of he later imports from France and Switzerland actually put too much milk into their daughters limiting the usefulness of these cattle.  Remember the Simmental/Fleckvieh is  a dual purpose animal not a true beef breed. In North America, South Africa and the UK the breed had to be developed into a beef breed meaning some cattle did not work here.
To get better outcross I would look at using UK genetics since they unlike the Europeans are using Simmental as a beef breed not for milk. In fact in Germany very few Full Flekvieh exist.  They have been adding Red Holstein to make them better milk cows.  This ruins  them from a beef production standpoint. 
The South African Flecks are some of the most oversold cattle going.  Big birth weights and mediocre growth in the SA cattle (Bar 5) is something they just starting to get a handle on.  Going all in on the SA cattle was a big mistake bar 5 made.
The solution is use the best fullbloods no matter where they come from. Breeders that pass on fullbloods cattle that aren't full fleck need to take another look at functionality after all commercial buyers do not buy pedigree.. 

I still have a number of fullblood eggs (Swiss and French) genetics that were harvested 25 years ago. The bull calf I posted is gone.....he was very sound and good quality but there is no market for an off age fullblood simmie bull calf. He was full French....no fleckvieh. And, that doesn't resonate or fly well with the active "fullblood" breeders today.
My hope was to get a good fullblood female or two to build with. We did get an awesome Bar 5 General heifer calf out of a big Montbeliard French female but she didn't make it at calving time. That's life.
And yes, the Europeans started using Red Holstein genetics on their fullblood herds many years ago....the government subsidy on milk influenced that thinking.

So you used Montbeliarde?  I thought I was one of the few to use that breed to create pature milk cows.  Even then they where the best French Dairy cow around.  Bulls with much Montbeliarde in them would be a very tough sell.

This is a bred heifer we bought from Heinz Erb 25-26 years ago....she had some Montbeliarde influence. Lighter structured but wonderful maternal qualities and amazing udder quality also.
Certainly the Montbeliarde cattle today are much more extreme and dairy influenced.

Really nice heifer. I have had fair success on the embryos transferred. 4 heifers and 4 bulls so far. expecting 3 more in March. These  genetics are not extreme like the purebreds from that era. Will try to post pictures when available. 

I will probably use MVP 402Y , a Bar 5 bull that is sired by Brundish Prosperous and dam is 407L, a daughter of RFG Tosca 1B and CET Galant Best 10F. He sired some very functional daughters and herd bull for them over the years.  I remember talking to a big breeder back in the day and he said he did not like Bar 5 bulls because they stopped growing.  He liked bulls that were Purebred and never stopped growing.  The Extra Best 87 K and Galant Best 10F was a good cross for Bar 5.  Answering your question about the South African genetics, I will keep these cattle free of those genetics.

407L was perhaps the best female Bar 5 ever produced. She was really something.....a flush mate to General.  If I recall correctly, Brundish Prosperus was a fleck from Britain? Some outcross genetics for Bar 5 to work with.
RFG Tosca 1G was the star of the show. A French import female that directly and indirectly generated millions.

Brundish Prosperous was a Siegfred son out of a Scottish Neff daughter. 407L was a female that seemed to work with any sire. Neil Moffatt at Bar 5 really liked Extra  Best for the same reason.  I like to concentrate on superior females. Like I stated at the start, I just like these old genetics.