Genetic Defects

Help Support Steer Planet:

Cattledog

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
1,116
cbcfarms said:
Dusty said:
Is fine boned and narrow butted considered a genetic defect?

hah! i've heard that one called the no-@$$-at-all gene.

Well, everyone I talk to considers that another genetic defect of the Angus breed.  ;D  
 

cowman 52

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
719
Location
San Angelo Texas
Need to back up & consider a few things about the epd's.  Too many breeders with huge herds have registered the bottom end of their calf crop to bulls that they either didn't like or had an ax to grind with their owners.  100 lb birth wts, 175 lb weaning wts and 450 lb yrl wts.  then turn them in just to watch the numbers go haywire.
  I've been around cattle for enough years to know it's BIRTH SHAPE not birth weight that causes most calving problems.  The associations have harpped & B******* so long that they convinced nearly every cattle man in America that a 60 lb birth weight is the ideal.  It might just be so but in 80 plus percent of the herds the 60 lb birth wt calf is ALWAYS behind his 85 lb brother and no matter how your country is I'll bet he still sells by the pound.
  So back to the point of my rants,  associations should register our cattle,  try to help us promote them, identify genetic problems when they appear, and stay the H**** out of picking bulls I need to use.    I'm perfectlly able to screw it up on my own. (cow)
 
 

kfacres

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
3,713
Location
Industry, IL Ph #: 618-322-2582
you know if we want to start talking about the bad angus gene, then we don't we mention the crippled simy gene, -or the hard doin., big birthweight shorhorn gene,- or how bout the _______ gene.  We all can have fun, but be fair!!! JMO
 

Cattledog

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
1,116
cowman 52 said:
Need to back up & consider a few things about the epd's.  Too many breeders with huge herds have registered the bottom end of their calf crop to bulls that they either didn't like or had an ax to grind with their owners.  100 lb birth wts, 175 lb weaning wts and 450 lb yrl wts.  then turn them in just to watch the numbers go haywire.
  I've been around cattle for enough years to know it's BIRTH SHAPE not birth weight that causes most calving problems.  The associations have harpped & B******* so long that they convinced nearly every cattle man in America that a 60 lb birth weight is the ideal.  It might just be so but in 80 plus percent of the herds the 60 lb birth wt calf is ALWAYS behind his 85 lb brother and no matter how your country is I'll bet he still sells by the pound.
  So back to the point of my rants,  associations should register our cattle,  try to help us promote them, identify genetic problems when they appear, and stay the H**** out of picking bulls I need to use.    I'm perfectlly able to screw it up on my own. (cow)
   

We are really beating this epd thing up now aren't we?  As an angus producer I use epds as a reference tool not a decision maker.  I think the BW epd is kind of rediculous too.  That is why I use "For Reference" the CED( Calving Ease Direct ).  This is supposed to give an indicator of having a calf unassisted.  It mentions nothing about birthweight but where there is a high CED EPD there is usually a low BW EPD.  I personally think that Epd's can be useful.  With that said two of the worst phenotype lines in the angus breed excel in the epd arena.  They are the Predestined and Objective lines.  I can't express my distaste for these two lines!

From a genetic standpoint, if you throw out the $B, $W, and $ whatever the epds for the most part are pretty consistent.  We all know that Accuracy plays a huge part but by the time a bull becomes a high accuracy bull there is something new out there and everybody moves on to the newer genetics. 

When I pick bulls to AI with the first thing I consider is what the calves look like and how hard do they come?  Everything else kind of sorts itself out.  If a producer looks at EPDs only he will have a bunch rotten looking animals that nobody will want....but they will have good numbers.  All in all, epds aren't evil just because some people don't know how to evaluate them in respect to the phenotypical appearance of the animal.
 

cowman 52

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
719
Location
San Angelo Texas
The female sale during Ft. Worth,  90 percent o f  the offering was by the bulls you just mentioned,  Had to be the lowest quality offering I've seen in years anywhere,  If you look at the consigners no one was interested in raising something of value,  just selling it to the next guy.  The funniest part was the amc / amf signs all over,  they have all backed themselves into a corner,  one yesterday pulled the plug,  & why, because they diid nothing except the epd thing to pick cattle.  This genetic problem will be a blessing in my opinion,  a lot of merchandisers will fall out[ with the help of our new Pres] and maybe this will shake out in the next 4 years. 
 

Cattledog

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
1,116
You know the crazy thing is I have gone to some of the sales these people put on and the cows that I would probably designate as receip material are the ones that go for 30K plus.  I have actually had some good buys at these sales because it seems like if they don't have these horrid lines in them they aren't worth much to the high rollers. 
 

jimmyski

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
99
Location
Colby, KS
Even the RA breed is contaminated by number manipulation. EPD's are IMHO a marketing tool, Use a high accuracy AI bull, put his calves in the same contemporary group as the progeny of the bull that you are trying to promote - trash the AI bulls calves data that you turn in and turn in exceptional data on the other calves. Eventually if other breeders use your bull the truth will come out but it will take several years for the accuracies to get high enough to kill him. As far as EPD's in the show ring - the RA's have taken that to the extreme as much as the steers have taken hair to the extreme. I have seen excellent animals with just decent ( and probably honest) EPD's get beat badly by animals that were of far lesser quality but politically correct EPD's. I think we are in a trend away from that now as there are fewer and fewer breeders that are putting much faith in the computer generated and manipulated EPD's. I know of a few people that sat in front of their computers and stacked the numbers when making their breeding decisions, never giving a second thought to soundness, body type, etc., most ended up with EPD's thaty were off the charts but the cattle couldn't back up the numbers. RW
[/quote]

As ususal RW you are spot on with your analysis of EPD's.  I love going to bull sales and finding the bulls that actually look like bulls and have everything we are looking for and being able to pay half the price of these supposed next great ones. I look through so many sale catalogs and see these bulls at the top ends of the sales being promoted cause they have great numbers and great pedigree's yet they look like they got a little extra shot of estrogen. No masculinity, no bone, no muscle, yet because they have the hot new pedigree and their numbers say they are awesome people pay outlandish amounts of money for a bull that should have been steered a long time ago. When EPD's were first created they were an amazing tool to use. Unfortunately over the years, EPD's have made way too many "Multipliers" and we've lost a lot of "Breeders". Hopefully there will come a point in time in which we get back to actual "Animal Breeding" and steer away from chasing the fads that have led us down so many different paths.
 

red

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
7,850
Location
LaRue, Ohio
I question bulls that have incomplete EPD's or none at all.
As far as defects, look at how many the human race has. A while back being left handed was considered a defect!

lefty
Red
 

Cattledog

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
1,116
red said:
I question bulls that have incomplete EPD's or none at all.
As far as defects, look at how many the human race has. A while back being left handed was considered a defect!

lefty
Red

I'm a lefty converted to a righty!  BTW, my grandfather still thinks it is a defect.
 
Top