Here comes the fallout from the clone.

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tj1993

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Aug 10, 2010
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not so sure about that mooch, my cousin has been showing dairy heifers for years and tells me that clones have been shown at the World Dairy Expo for years and that show gets bigger every year.  Its no big deal to them.
tj
 

Telos

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This is one for the archives. First grand champion cloned steer.
 

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jimbob123

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IMO, it is cheating. 

If you think about the reasons we have Stock Shows it goes against it.  It is to teach the kids hard work ethics as well as improve genetics.

 

Telos

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jimbob123 said:
IMO, it is cheating. 

If you think about the reasons we have Stock Shows it goes against it.  It is to teach the kids hard work ethics as well as improve genetics.
My first thoughts were a little negative but after some thought I feel that it is perfectly alright. There is nothing in the rules that say cloned calves are prohibited.

I do think the old fashion way of breeding for a good show calf (A.I. included) is more challenging, but more power to the folks who have the resources to clone a good calf. Why not take advantage of this technology.

Cloning does not insure a great calf that wins. It still has to  be nurtured properly with people that work hard and have the skills to get them to the winners circle.

 

Aussie

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After reading some of the comments posted on the link one raised a good point.
Maybe the whole class should be of the one cloned str then it will just come down to who is the best feeder and fitter. (lol)
 

KSanburg

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Maybe I am not reading right but, this show was a year ago and we are just now hearing about it, I would have thought this would have made front page news in most ag related news. As far as what it means to me, for steer shows maybe it will see some use, not at the price they claim in the article for anyone I know, but I think it kind of defeats the purpose of a breeding show, and wouldn't be much fun either.
 

comercialfarmer

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I got to thinking I haven't made enough enemies lately, so thought I would chime in.  :)

I have never shown, and I don't have any firm beliefs against cloning.  I think that if a superior animal (not just phenotype, but also possibly resistance to disease or meat quality) is created cloning can be an added tool to the arsenal of propagation of that particular animals genetics along with ET and AI. 

The debate in my mind about cloning concerning show animals comes in the following.  Is the purpose of showing - to bring the best animal “possible” to the ring as far as structure, decisions made in feeding the animal, and grooming…  Or is the purpose of showing- to test an individual’s ability to look through all possible prospect stock available to them to choose which undeveloped young calf will grow into the best structured animal from which to make decisions regarding feeding, grooming, and whatever else is entailed into bringing a show animal in the ring. 

To me if the former is the goal- then any possible technique should be available.  If the later is the goal (to test an individuals ability to judge undeveloped stock) then cloning should be banned as this would provide a contestant with an unfair advantage of knowing the true genetic potential (this is not saying they will be identical). 

I would think that the goals of the show industry are identified first and foremost, this would be less of a debate. 
 

simtal

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just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.
 

comercialfarmer

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simtal said:
just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.

Again, I am an outsider with no dog in the hunt- so as far as I care- use them, don't use them.  Don't really care.  I have only started paying attention to the show ring animals to add a little flare to my herd.    

With no disrespect intended to anyone, it totally cracks me up that a portion of the deciding factor to chose the best quality animal is based on a "hair cut" (I understand there is a science to the technique, but it doesn't add to the value of the animal itself).  Not sure that I have seen any animals drive themselves.  However, that would be one that I think would deserve cloning.  Because I am not pushing any particular agenda- I will agree, no animal feeds or cares for itself.  There appears to be a lot of work involved.  I commend anyone that is dedicated, and willing to see something through.  To many kids these days don't have any type of work ethic.  

Lets use logic and the process of reproduction.  Full sibs breeding vs Clones...  Out of curiosity, do you have a brother? Sister? or two children or know any couple that has two children?  Do they look identical?  They are a product of the same breeding pair.  They have some of the same genes  but also each has genes they do not share making them different.  Sometimes VERY different.  

With 59 pairs of chromosomes in a bull a the start of creation of sperm, then with multiple crossovers (creating new chromosome combinations) between each pair, the variety of gene combinations in sperm is enormous. Now consider that the dam is doing the same.  Now do you expect the progeny to be identical or close to identical… No.   Secondly, if you take a bull composed of multiple breeds and breed to a cow composed of multiple breeds, the potential for diversity is expanded.  

So lets again consider clones vs. breeding full sibs-  they are nothing alike.  Who knows what you will have at 14 months with each new birth.  Put a clone in a similar environment, you have a similar expectation. And again- I don't really care if they are or are not used.  But to say that there is not an advantage to seeing the end product of the exact genetic composition in the animal previously (under slightly different environments- as all of them are pushed hard) is nothing less than silly.  

I like logic, wish it was used more often in todays world.  :) 
 

JAGUR01

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Feb 26, 2010
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comercialfarmer said:
simtal said:
just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.

Again, I am an outsider with no dog in the hunt- so as far as I care- use them, don't use them.  Don't really care.  I have only started paying attention to the show ring animals to add a little flare to my herd.    

With no disrespect intended to anyone, it totally cracks me up that a portion of the deciding factor to chose the best quality animal is based on a "hair cut" (I understand there is a science to the technique, but it doesn't add to the value of the animal itself).  Not sure that I have seen any animals drive themselves.  However, that would be one that I think would deserve cloning.  Because I am not pushing any particular agenda- I will agree, no animal feeds or cares for itself.  There appears to be a lot of work involved.  I commend anyone that is dedicated, and willing to see something through.  To many kids these days don't have any type of work ethic.  

Lets use logic and the process of reproduction.  Full sibs breeding vs Clones...  Out of curiosity, do you have a brother? Sister? or two children or know any couple that has two children?  Do they look identical?  They are a product of the same breeding pair.  They have some of the same genes  but also each has genes they do not share making them different.  Sometimes VERY different.  

With 59 pairs of chromosomes in a bull a the start of creation of sperm, then with multiple crossovers (creating new chromosome combinations) between each pair, the variety of gene combinations in sperm is enormous. Now consider that the dam is doing the same.  Now do you expect the progeny to be identical or close to identical… No.   Secondly, if you take a bull composed of multiple breeds and breed to a cow composed of multiple breeds, the potential for diversity is expanded.  

So lets again consider clones vs. breeding full sibs-  they are nothing alike.  Who knows what you will have at 14 months with each new birth.  Put a clone in a similar environment, you have a similar expectation. And again- I don't really care if they are or are not used.  But to say that there is not an advantage to seeing the end product of the exact genetic composition in the animal previously (under slightly different environments- as all of them are pushed hard) is nothing less than silly.  

I like logic, wish it was used more often in todays world.   :) 
Could not have said it any better. 
 

The Show

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Look at the 15 HW clones. No two of them look alike, and none of them seem to have the same result even though they are a genetic copy of the original. I think if you can afford to clone then go for it.

Cloning is going to be the next slick shear vs hair debate, and people will argue their side until the end of the earth. There will be the people who say it's not fair, and there will be the people that say life's not fair. Just go ahead and pick your side now.
 

gw197510

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Feb 23, 2010
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I agree wiht comercial farmer - I had a pretty knowledgable person tell me that any winning show animal is about 25% genetics, 50% hard work by the exhibitor (feeding, washing and hair grooming, trimming feet, breaking to lead and show, fitting, etc, etc) and 25% dumb ass luck (whether the judge likes their kind, does the calf get sick or go off feed, the other calves in their class, etc.)  They can only control the first two and even then, there is always a pretty big percentage totally out of their control. Just because a calf is a clone is absolutely no guarantee of a win in a business where there are no guarantees.
 

angus showman

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I agree cloning is not cheating although genetically the same the clones still have different additudes feed different grow hair different depending on what environment they are in look at the HW clones how many of them are as good as Heat wave himself. What makes me wonder about clones is as we progress into the future we are supposed to keep improving our livestock how long can we clone a calf. Im not saying the cloned Iowa steer should have not won I never saw the steer and apparently he was plenty good enough to win but it seems like we are picking steer style from a couple years back which is fine but its like genetics should have got better in the last two years so the question arises how long can you clone a great one before genetic drift or style is platued or declined instead of improve
 

forcheyhawk

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Jul 17, 2008
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The people that I've heard discuss it wasn't concerned as much with the food chain as they were with the message that we continually send to our young people by constantly pushing the limits of acceptability to WIN.  I've heard the same conversations about some of the classes having 1/2 million dollars worth of animals in them.  Honestly, I don't care how people with money choose to spend their money.  That's out of my control, but I can see the side of the argument that is being made.  These types of things don't just happen in cattle.  Kids today are faced with this in sports and everything else they do too.  I don't have any answers here and I'm on the fence about whether cloning show steers is right or wrong from a values standpoint.  I do think these discussions are worth having though because while this may be one of the 1st (if not the first) show steer to be cloned that won a championship, I can guarantee now it won't be the last.  So if something was to be done, now is the time to consider it.
 

ruhtram

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I find it hard, believing that people will stop practicing things we've done for century's. I think cloning is a great asset to the cattle industry but doesn't allow for the maximum growth potential or quality improvement rates that we already see. Cloning could slow this down, which makes me believe people will continue to find the next big mating. Through our selective type breeding today I think showing a clone isn't a sure win. Those of you that saw the ISF steer show should of noticed how many good steers were in the div. 2. Faber's class had the grand and res. I thought the 3 place steer in that class was worthy of a top 5. Plus there were a lot of other good steers in the other classes of that div. I don't see cloned steers having that big of an impact because their not the next new mating or style of calf.
 

oakbar

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Interesting editorial by the New York Times on Aug. 26th called "The Looking Glass Steer".  They did make a typo on Faber's name but overall a pretty balanced article for a major city newspaper.  I particularlly like their closing paragraph--

"And yet Doc has been useful.  A cloned steer highlights the peculiar limitation of cloning, as opposed to ordinary reproduction.  Cloning can only ever replicate what is, while biological breeding-- even with artificial insemination and embryo transplants common in the cattle industry--continues to offer what hasn't yet been."
 

hntwhitetail

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oakbar said:
Interesting editorial by the New York Times on Aug. 26th called "The Looking Glass Steer".   They did make a typo on Faber's name but overall a pretty balanced article for a major city newspaper.   I particularlly like their closing paragraph--

"And yet Doc has been useful.   A cloned steer highlights the peculiar limitation of cloning, as opposed to ordinary reproduction.  Cloning can only ever replicate what is, while biological breeding-- even with artificial insemination and embryo transplants common in the cattle industry--continues to offer what hasn't yet been."


good quote
 

gw197510

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Lets be real folks, the argument that you can't compete against a $20,000 clone or that this makes it for rich is totally bogus.  For starters, there have been steers showing for years that were purchased for more than $40,000.  In am guessing the clone may have been the cheapest steer in the top 5 in his class!  The simple fact is that many families are out there trying to buy the calf that gives them the best chance to win and they are willing to pay alot for that chance.
 
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