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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2020, 10:57:08 AM »
Any of these genetics still around?  These deep chested bulls are exactly what I like to see. 
All to common to see bulls that have greater flank circumference than heart girth. 

Offline kiblercattle

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2020, 03:46:13 PM »
Heres our Weston bull, Weston dingo a son of dynamo. This is him pictured as 2 year old as grand champion at the pacific international in Portland.

Offline idalee

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2020, 05:49:17 PM »
Performance programs have been around a long time.  The first bull test station was in Texas in 1941.   In 1954,  The Red Angus Association of American became the first breed association to initiate a performance program.  In 1955,  a group of West Texas producers and Extension Agents developed Performance Registry International which quickly became national.   Milking Shorthorn had its own Gain Registry program which started in 1962.   In addition,  Milking Shorthorn originated the certified Native Shorthorn registry.   So it is discouraging that the great majority of bulls listed in this bull listing have ZERO DATA!

Offline beebe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2020, 07:00:56 PM »
Back in the 70s I thought performance was the ability to gain fast.  Then Doc Nold told me that performance was the ability to turn something that we can't eat into something we can.  Now that I am producing gourmet grass finished beef. The rate of gain is not as important to me as the composition of the gain.   

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2020, 07:02:06 PM »
Back in the 70s I thought performance was the ability to gain fast.  Then Doc Nold told me that performance was the ability to turn something that we can't eat into something we can.  Now that I am producing gourmet grass finished beef. The rate of gain is not as important to me as the composition of the gain. ///// Well put-Eliminate the sale barn Cretins
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 07:04:32 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline knabe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2020, 07:10:39 PM »
So it is discouraging that the great majority of bulls listed in this bull listing have ZERO DATA!


maybe the data is somewhere on paper and no one wants to find out what box it's in, or maybe it went out with the trash so lost forever.


that's the more likely scenario.

Offline Heritage Shorthorn

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2020, 07:23:30 PM »
I want to thank XBAR for asking the most pertinent question on this thread Do any of these genetics still exist?  Yes.  I know of several members of the Heritage Shorthorn Society who have these genetics, some of whom have posted on this thread.  The one I want to highlight is Wally Klose (Diamond K Shorthorns-Twin Bridges, Montana) who raises Heritage Influenced Shorthorns and owns a bull, Harvey Fulton 32A (ASA #4206631), who is the spitting image of Weston Romeo except he is bigger, thicker and still alive.  I have seen Harvey at different times of the year and he stays in amazing condition no matter what he has available to eat.  If you look closely at the Harvey pictures I have included you will see he is grazing on some of Wallys finest pasture.   No Iowa corn for Harvey.  I am sure many of you know Wally and realize he runs a no frills operation.  They either make it or they are on a one way trip to town.  Harvey is sired by Kenmar President 26A and includes Kenmar Ransom 32Z, Pleasant dawn Seal 2nd, and HHFS Dream Weaver on his maternal side.  Wallys market has always been the commercial cattlemen and he has made a living selling Shorthorns to that market for approximately 60 years.  Too bad there are not many Shorthorn breeders left that have his MO (modus operandi for Dragnet fans).

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2020, 01:43:41 PM »
Quote
maybe the data is somewhere on paper and no one wants to find out what box it's in, or maybe it went out with the trash so lost forever. that's the more likely scenario.

Yes exactly - doesn't mean that it wasn't done, just that the time wasn't taken to hand add all this stuff into computer systems and/or transferred over as new computer systems were used. Even with the recent Canadian move to Digital Beef there were animals left off if they weren't deemed relevant (or so I understand).

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2020, 01:46:40 PM »
On another note - the semen from the older Heritage bulls sold really well the other day in Horseshoe Creeks Frozen in time sale.

Semen is near bottom of first page and there is more on the second.

https://edjeauctions.com/auction.php?aucid=141

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2020, 10:00:21 AM »
We have a lot more data than our fellow Breeders could easily acces in the pre computer age. Most of those breeders are alive and kicking and what is necessary is to go look at their cattle and ask questions. This method has worked for a long long time. You really don't know until you go look.
But the data we can access online is very rich. Just search the progeny of the old bulls. See who was used the most, then see how many progeny are recorded for the daughters and sons. In this case, search by Bulls, Name and Weston. Or Females, Name and Weston. Or any other herd prefix or animal name. Only by longevity of the individual through the longevity and influence of their get can you figure out if the animal was useful in the real world. Then you must ask, useful for what?
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline oakview

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2020, 10:20:58 AM »
Of course there's all sorts of information out there on many of those old bulls.  I've mentioned on this site several times the ASA sire tests of the mid to late 70's.  Nearly all of the bulls tested were either straight beef, straight dual, or a combination of the two.  Irish influence had not become extremely popular yet.  I believe there were about 25 bulls compared the year my bull was in the test.  The ASA has got to have this information somewhere.  I know it was published in the Shorthorn magazines of the day.  The test basically ran from conception to carcass.  My old ABS sire books also have performance information on the progeny of all their bulls, as do the other AI magazines I have.  The ABS issue I look at the most has performance data on progeny of Leader 21, Leader 9, Merriwong Smuggler, Lone Pine Grand Society, and there's another Australian bull I can't remember.  Unfortunately, most of this data has been neglected for many years.  It's out there.   

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2020, 10:37:05 AM »
These are half sibs by the Weston Resource son. The bull is out of a Cat 20 daughter and the heifer is out of a DMH Maverick daughter. Maverick is by Ball Dee Perfect Count. Both come from Cherry Blossom cows by Promise A Chief 01...I think we have plenty of reason to believe these genetics will perform even without the (low accuracy) epd's the cattle industry is trying to convince us can predict the future. As recorded data...well it all depends on the environment so we can start recording now and include better info on the plane of nutrition during gestation and growth to put those numbers in context.
Perfect Count photo from 1970.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 11:31:45 AM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #132 on: February 03, 2020, 10:42:06 AM »
And...In my ( limited) experience, I've never seen a calf grow as fast as this DMH Snowball call by a Leader 6th son. I don't understand how he is doing it...the other calves, including the homeborn Galloways and crosses are just going along steady, but this one is getting heavier and taller every day. I wish he was named Snow Chief or something.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline idalee

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #133 on: February 03, 2020, 11:09:23 AM »
Glad to see the white bull doing so well,  but it reminds me of going to look at cows from breeders years ago and when asked how much milk they gave,  the answer was "Lots"!    Need to get weights on this bull and his contemporary group,  then we know how he performs compared to others under the same environment.    Also,  Promise A Chief -  63 calves,  40 birth weights,  18 weaning weights and zero yearling weights. 

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2020, 11:29:40 AM »
Idalee...no argument here. I'd like to see ultrasound for IMF as well. I was just wondering if I could load him every week and run down to the gravel pit to weigh the trailer...but there is so much mud right now it would never work. I'm afraid he is headed for frame 6.., not what I need.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

 

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