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Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: Heritage Shorthorn on December 03, 2019, 11:25:53 AM

Title: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on December 03, 2019, 11:25:53 AM
For those interested in Heritage/Native Shorthorns there is a list of all Shorthorn bulls currently Verified as Heritage/Native in the reference section on the Heritage Shorthorn Society (HSS) website (www.heritageshorthorn.org (http://www.heritageshorthorn.org)). Over 760 bulls from the USA, Canada, Australia, and Great Britain are recorded.  Only bulls born after 1955 that have gone through a vetting process to determine they are 100% full blood Shorthorns by pedigree, and have only ancestors that can be traced to the original 1822 Coates Herdbook, are listed.

The original vetting was done by the American Milking Shorthorn Society through their Native program with additional bulls contributed to the list by HSS.  An updated vetting procedure will be available through HSS starting January 1st, 2020 that will be simpler, quicker, and less costly.  Those interested in having their bulls registered Heritage can apply at that time.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on December 08, 2019, 09:50:44 AM
That is a nice list Joe, good work keep it going.  I harvested a strait native steer this fall out of a Albaugh cow and DMH Minn Max Leader that hung a 67% hanging weight.   
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 08, 2020, 10:55:50 AM
The Heritage Shorthorn Society website was launched 2 years ago to help Heritage Shorthorn breeders preserve, promote, and produce Heritage Shorthorns while developing an expanded niche in the cattle industry.  As an organization HSS has tried to be both nimble and dynamic as it responds to the needs and concerns of members.  From day one HSS has fielded numerous inquiries wanting HSS to start a Registry.

HSS has initiated the Heritage Shorthorn Society Registry to provide a better service to breeders, and this brings HSS full circle into a full fledged breed organization.

HSS will be working with the International Livestock Registries to provide the registration services to members and owners of Heritage Shorthorn and Heritage Influenced cattle.

Please go to the Heritage Shorthorn Society website to find out more!  https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/  (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 08, 2020, 01:06:17 PM
I think that sounds like a good thing.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 08, 2020, 04:18:45 PM
The Heritage registry is completely separate from ASA?  Cattle could be registered in both?  Would there be a way the ASA could denote Heritage cattle on an ASA certificate similar to what they did with the Milking Shorthorns and Maines in the past?  Would there be some benefit to working together with ASA?  What do you perceive as advantages to having a separate registry?  I'll try the Heritage website when I have more time.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 08, 2020, 05:24:55 PM
To increase the visibility and utilization of Heritage Shorthorns in the cattle industry it is paramount to have a Registry that is focused both on preserving Heritage genetics, and on the utilization of Heritage genetics within modern Shorthorns (Heritage Influenced).

The Heritage Shorthorn is on the critical list with the Livestock Conservancy.  We feel that there are more Heritage Shorthorn cattle, but trying to work with 2 different registries it is hard to know just how many there are.  With one registry to serve the Heritage Shorthorn it can make a difference.

Heritage Shorthorns are in a favorable position compared to other heritage breeds of cattle because of the tremendous genetic diversity & attributes that still exist in Shorthorns through the extensive number of Heritage Bulls that had semen collected on them in the 1950’s, 1960’s, and 1970’s.  At that time Shorthorn popularity was still extremely high and Shorthorns had not yet been openly “contaminated” by other cattle breeds such as Maine Anjou or Red & White Holsteins.  This “semen reserve” has maintained a rich genetic diversity that can be used today to produce any type of Shorthorn.  As an example, there is semen from Heritage bulls that weighed 1800# and bulls that weighed 3000#, bulls who’s daughter’s milk production reached 20,000# on a 305 day milk test period, and bulls that had carcass data/growth rates that are on a par with Modern Beef Shorthorns.

The significance  of Heritage Shorthorns can be measured in two ways.  First they literally could be called the “mother of all breeds” because at least 38 other cattle breeds have used Shorthorn blood as part of their formation.  Since the heritage lines can all be traced to the Coates herd book of 1822, their purity as a cattle breed is unparalleled.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 08, 2020, 06:42:54 PM
Has there been a way established to verify if an animal is native or not?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 08, 2020, 08:33:22 PM
https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/application-verification (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/application-verification)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 10, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
ASA has option to have a ‘N’ designation in front of the registration number to denote heritage status.



The Heritage registry is completely separate from ASA?  Cattle could be registered in both?  Would there be a way the ASA could denote Heritage cattle on an ASA certificate similar to what they did with the Milking Shorthorns and Maines in the past?  Would there be some benefit to working together with ASA?  What do you perceive as advantages to having a separate registry?  I'll try the Heritage website when I have more time.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 10, 2020, 01:27:22 PM
Be cool to see the list of heritage bulls broken down into which are relevant for production use versus those that are more novelty/preservation
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 10, 2020, 02:28:24 PM
Who would be qualified to make a list of bulls that are "relevant" and those that are not?  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I know of no one that could make such a list based on the bulls of today of any breed, let alone those of 40+ years ago.  If one person sees a use for any bull, then he is "relevant." 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 10, 2020, 04:50:54 PM
To be verified as a Heritage Shorthorn the animal has be 100% full blood Shorthorn (no outside blood can be incorporated into the pedigree), and all ancestors must trace to the 1822 Coates Herd Book.

The only list that is on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website are those that are verified as a Heritage Shorthorn.

Breeders that are searching for Heritage Shorthorn before there was any outside influence can find them with the Heritage Shorthorn.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 10, 2020, 11:07:31 PM
Who would be qualified to make a list of bulls that are "relevant" and those that are not?  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I know of no one that could make such a list based on the bulls of today of any breed, let alone those of 40+ years ago.  If one person sees a use for any bull, then he is "relevant."

I agree, I recently harvested a steer sired by  a not quite frame score 4 bull out of a cow that might weigh 1200 lbs.  He weighed 1250 and hung an 830 pound carcass.  That is profitable even though some people would think that is too small.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 11, 2020, 10:31:16 AM
Who would be qualified to make a list of bulls that are "relevant" and those that are not?  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I know of no one that could make such a list based on the bulls of today of any breed, let alone those of 40+ years ago.  If one person sees a use for any bull, then he is "relevant."


My sentence didn't end with the word relevant.   What I said was, "relevant for production use."   Implicit there was beef cattle production.  3000 lb bulls have no relevance in beef cattle production.   Bulls that are frame 0 w/ 2 inches of backfat at 800lbs aren't relative for production use. 


Who would be qualified to make a list of bulls that are "relevant" and those that are not?  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I know of no one that could make such a list based on the bulls of today of any breed, let alone those of 40+ years ago.  If one person sees a use for any bull, then he is "relevant."

I agree, I recently harvested a steer sired by  a not quite frame score 4 bull out of a cow that might weigh 1200 lbs.  He weighed 1250 and hung an 830 pound carcass.  That is profitable even though some people would think that is too small.

Sounds perfect to me.   The economics of the matter make the strongest case for whats relevant and whats not.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 13, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
The Heritage Shorthorn register and preservation is a great idea.
Useful cattle there and makes a new option for bloodlines in future.
My unique concern is that bulls are checked based on pedigrees only.
As all here in this forum already read, many and many bulls are pedigrees fake.
I just think that a second and final certificate should be done after a DNA confirmation through philogenetic analysis.
It's a valueable genetics and must to be avoid use it on wrong cows.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: redcows on January 13, 2020, 09:10:14 AM
When did they add red and white Holsteins?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 13, 2020, 10:55:01 AM
Red Holstein is not allowed in the Heritage Shorthorn.  The American Milking Shorthorn Society has allowed a great amount of Red Holstein genetics into the breed.  There are Milking Shorthorn animals that are over 50% Holstein blood.

The amount of actual Milking Shorthorn blood in the breed is concerning to many breeders and they are wanting to work toward bringing the purity of the Milking Shorthorn to a much higher percentage.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 14, 2020, 05:25:33 AM
Dairy Shorthorns in Uk also allowed Holstein, as well as Norwegian Red, Swedish Red, Ayrshire, Illawarras, Red Danish. They starts the crossbredings on the 60's and now is very rare find real pure Dairy Shorthorn on UK without infusions.
Seems like Shorthorn is an extinct breed.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Hopster1000 on January 14, 2020, 06:44:55 AM
Rare Breeds Survival Trust in the UK monitors two sections of native dairy Shorthorn.

https://www.rbst.org.uk/northern-dairy-shorthorn2 (https://www.rbst.org.uk/northern-dairy-shorthorn2)

https://www.rbst.org.uk/dairy-shorthorn-original-population (https://www.rbst.org.uk/dairy-shorthorn-original-population)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 14, 2020, 08:16:46 AM
Dairy Shorthorns in Uk also allowed Holstein, as well as Norwegian Red, Swedish Red, Ayrshire, Illawarras, Red Danish. They starts the crossbredings on the 60's and now is very rare find real pure Dairy Shorthorn on UK without infusions.
Seems like Shorthorn is an extinct breed.

That is the same problem here in the US.  What the AMSS did when they allowed those outside breeds, they gave them full Milking Shorthorn numbers.  When we started our registry, we were noticing that many of our Scandinavian breeds were showing a percentage of Milking Shorthorn.  After following the trail, we discovered that the Norwegian bull K.Schie was identified as a Milking Shorthorn and had no ancestry showing for him.  We added several generations to his ancestry and then we had to correct his ID so that his Norwegian Red number was the primary number.  Also the Illawarra were given full Milking Shorthorn numbers and in doing so offspring of those bulls born in the US were not being included in the International proofs at Interbull.

With so much outside breed influence the Milking Shorthorn for the most part is nothing more than another Red Holstein as many of them today are over 50% Holstein genetics.  Breeders are finding out just how little Milking Shorthorn genetics are in their cattle and many are looking for ways to bring the purity of the Milking Shorthorn up to a much higher level.  If they don't the breed may very well find itself in extinction, this is a comment that I have heard several times from geneticists and others in the last couple of months.  This is not only a problem in the US, but all other countries that have Milking Shorthorn.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 15, 2020, 09:48:02 AM
The dilution of "pure" genetics of almost every breed of every species is a direct result of breeders, and often a breed association, attempting to make their breed something they're not.  Selection within a breed for certain traits can take many generations.  Someone is always looking for a short cut.  Anybody know where I can find a real Angus?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 15, 2020, 10:50:09 AM
The dilution of "pure" genetics of almost every breed of every species is a direct result of breeders, and often a breed association, attempting to make their breed something they're not.  Selection within a breed for certain traits can take many generations.  Someone is always looking for a short cut.  Anybody know where I can find a real Angus?

oakview, I think of any statement that could have been made,this is the most accurate statement.  well said!
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 15, 2020, 03:58:28 PM
Dairy Shorthorns in Uk also allowed Holstein, as well as Norwegian Red, Swedish Red, Ayrshire, Illawarras, Red Danish. They starts the crossbredings on the 60's and now is very rare find real pure Dairy Shorthorn on UK without infusions.
Seems like Shorthorn is an extinct breed.

That is the same problem here in the US.  What the AMSS did when they allowed those outside breeds, they gave them full Milking Shorthorn numbers.  When we started our registry, we were noticing that many of our Scandinavian breeds were showing a percentage of Milking Shorthorn.  After following the trail, we discovered that the Norwegian bull K.Schie was identified as a Milking Shorthorn and had no ancestry showing for him.  We added several generations to his ancestry and then we had to correct his ID so that his Norwegian Red number was the primary number.  Also the Illawarra were given full Milking Shorthorn numbers and in doing so offspring of those bulls born in the US were not being included in the International proofs at Interbull.

With so much outside breed influence the Milking Shorthorn for the most part is nothing more than another Red Holstein as many of them today are over 50% Holstein genetics.  Breeders are finding out just how little Milking Shorthorn genetics are in their cattle and many are looking for ways to bring the purity of the Milking Shorthorn up to a much higher level.  If they don't the breed may very well find itself in extinction, this is a comment that I have heard several times from geneticists and others in the last couple of months.  This is not only a problem in the US, but all other countries that have Milking Shorthorn.

Some times I have the feel that some Breeders Societies make this intentionally. To cause mistakes and breeders lose her patience and enter in full on the mongrels crossbreedings!

Always had in ind that a breeder society is to keep and preserve the breed genes! KEEP and PRESERVE! Of course that some breeding programs are necessary time by time for one or another reason, but they can simply make clear what are the crosses and what are not, and keep in clear for all!
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on January 16, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
So are there any Heritage beef lines left, or do all the current live Heritage cattle derive from Haumont breeding? I don't think there would be any left here in Canada as I am fairly sure that every Shorthorn in the closed book has multiple crosses of Irish cattle. I have checked a few herds that would be most likely and they all have Irish.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 16, 2020, 03:07:17 PM
There are several that have non-Haumont genetics and the number is growing.

Those interested can look on the HSS website heritageshorthorn.org (http://heritageshorthorn.org) or send an email to HSS at info@heritageshorthorn.org
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Medium Rare on January 16, 2020, 07:25:56 PM
Is there a stand alone database where animal pedigrees and defect status can be browsed or is this dependent upon the ASA and breeders maintaining dual registrations?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: cbcr on January 16, 2020, 09:32:16 PM
Is there a stand alone database where animal pedigrees and defect status can be browsed or is this dependent upon the ASA and breeders maintaining dual registrations?

As we build the database, we will have a searchable database for the Heritage Shorthorn online that will have the information.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on January 16, 2020, 09:48:19 PM
On February 1st the Heritage Shorthorn Society (HSS) will be posting a list of Heritage bulls that have tested free of TH,  PHA, DS. and MYO.  This list will include several famous old Heritage bulls that have never had genetic information posted on them before and will be updated as more information becomes available to HSS from breeders using the semen from Heritage Shorthorn bulls.  This list is independent of ASA although some of the information may also be on either the ASA or CSA websites.  Only Heritage bulls that have been tested for all four defects will be listed.  Heritage bulls that have been tested for 1-3 of the defects will not be listed.  They can be added to the HSS list if the missing information is provided to HSS.  Partial information on some these bulls may be available on the ASA or CSA websites.

As HSS builds its genetic data base more and more pedigree information will become available.  Certainly there is pedigree information on both the ASA and CSA websites for many Heritage Shorthorn bulls particularly those that are dual registered.  All Shorthorns registered with HSS will have their searchable pedigrees posted along with known genetic test information.  For those interested, there is also an option on HSS registration papers for milk protein (A2, etc) information to be posted if it is known.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 17, 2020, 01:30:56 AM
What’s the significant of the defect free list?

All of the recognized defects were infused via Maine or some other outside blood.  (The cattle gods sure have a funny way of keeping people honest)

Is it not implicit that if it’s truly a ‘heritage Shorthorn’ that the animal is free of all 4?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 17, 2020, 06:53:53 AM
So having a defect helps  prove they are not pure?

Not sure what that really does.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on January 17, 2020, 11:14:20 AM
XBAR’s question is complicated.  To my knowledge PHA and DS have never been detected in a Heritage Shorthorn nor has the E226X MYO mutation  There is a well known case of TH popping up in the Clipper King USA line but establishing where it came from has been difficult.  TH has never been detected in any other Heritage Shorthorn.  MYO is a more difficult issue because of the many different mutations of MYO.  The F94L MYO mutation has been found in a Heritage Shorthorn line but it is impossible, at this point, to say where it came from.  The possibility exists that there was a separate F94L mutation in Shorthorns.  The difficultly lies in the lack of DNA samples to work with in Shorthorns from more than 80 years ago.  The existence of Shorthorn semen samples today from as far back as 70 years ago is helpful but do not necessarily answer all the MYO questions.  Because of the possibility of a mutation occurring at any point within a cattle breed, the testing of Heritage Shorthorns for TH, PHA, DS, and MYO can not be the only determinant of purity.  The Heritage Shorthorn Society recommends that all Shorthorn bulls be tested for the four genetic conditions.  Unfortunately no one can be sure about what went on behind the barn 100 years ago let alone last week.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 17, 2020, 11:35:56 AM
So. Use what you want, and if they happen to have a defect, test for it and screen.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on January 17, 2020, 11:50:37 AM
Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 17, 2020, 02:12:10 PM
Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 17, 2020, 02:37:29 PM
where.


the association should sequence the region around the mutation, compare against all animals from all breeds, declare it came from where ever and throw the animal out of registry.


do this over and over.


shouldn't be too hard. one can find all sorts of breeds in other breeds now.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 17, 2020, 04:04:52 PM
where.


the association should sequence the region around the mutation, compare against all animals from all breeds, declare it came from where ever and throw the animal out of registry.


do this over and over.


shouldn't be too hard. one can find all sorts of breeds in other breeds now.

What would be the incentive for an association that generates income based on volume of registrations to take any measure to minimize or limit access to said registry?    That’s the problem.  All but the Angus and Hereford associations have essentially sold their soles to the devil by opening the herd books and making not breed purity but rather revenue  the motive for their existence.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on January 17, 2020, 04:10:12 PM
Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 17, 2020, 04:31:54 PM
Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Maybe knabe can help me here— Are there any verified examples of an exact same mutation occurring in two separate populations?

My thoughts are no.

And with that said, the only viable explanation is that the pedigree is wrong and the cow in question is in fact  a crossbred Maine Anjou.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 17, 2020, 05:38:30 PM
So. Use what you want, and if they happen to have a defect, test for it and screen./// Absolutely-thats how some really good clean cattle evolved from carriers-breed em to a clean one O0
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 17, 2020, 08:32:18 PM
Based on what I have been reading and learning lately the F94l variant is also called the profit gene as it improves cutability without adding any calving difficulty.  So if it occurs in native Shorthorns why is it a bad thing?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on January 17, 2020, 10:29:37 PM
I guess it is a chicken and egg thing. Durham Shorthorns were used to create the Maine Anjou breed. Do they know if the the Durhams brought the Myo into the Maines, or if it existed in the French breed that was crossed with the Durhams? This statement from a scientific paper would seem to answer that question - "The double muscling syndrome was first documented some 200 years ago in Durham cattle by the Englishman, George Culley (1804)". Thus the reason the Durham cattle were used to create Belgian Blue and likely why the Maine Anjou cattle carry it. Hard to say that because an animal carries Myostatin it must have an incorrect pedigree.

Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Maybe knabe can help me here— Are there any verified examples of an exact same mutation occurring in two separate populations?

My thoughts are no.

And with that said, the only viable explanation is that the pedigree is wrong and the cow in question is in fact  a crossbred Maine Anjou.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Hopster1000 on January 18, 2020, 04:28:12 AM
I guess it is a chicken and egg thing. Durham Shorthorns were used to create the Maine Anjou breed. Do they know if the the Durhams brought the Myo into the Maines, or if it existed in the French breed that was crossed with the Durhams? This statement from a scientific paper would seem to answer that question - "The double muscling syndrome was first documented some 200 years ago in Durham cattle by the Englishman, George Culley (1804)". Thus the reason the Durham cattle were used to create Belgian Blue and likely why the Maine Anjou cattle carry it. Hard to say that because an animal carries Myostatin it must have an incorrect pedigree.

The general consensus in the UK is that the Shorthorn always had the myostatin gene and it was more likely that Maine Anjou and Belgian Blue got the myostatin gene from the shorthorns than the other way around.
Even looking at some old black and white pictures the muscle definition on one or two bulls (that would have been native bred) would lend you to think myostatin was present. Now, as to which variant originated in the Shorthorn breed it is hard to say. Most breeds have more than one variant, as in Shorthorn. The F94L variant is most common in Limousin cattle, but they obviously have other types also.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 18, 2020, 08:32:31 AM
For those interested in using Heritage Shorthorn to add rib and reduce height in your existing herd ( of any breed, but in particular "mainstream" Shorthorn).
I have just been up to DMH cattle to look at the 2019 bull calves. Ordinarily many of these calves would have gone to be developed for the Galbreath sale, but this year they remained on the farm. This group is sired by a Leader 6th son, a Catalyst 20 son and a Kodiak son. I am not exaggerating to say this group of calves had more depth and rib than whatever else is out there. Those who know how excellent the CCL6th daughters are will see the usefulness of using one of these Leader 6th grandsons back on them.
I direct those who have interest in short red bulls to Morning Glory by Titanic.
However,it was the Cat 20 grandsons that I liked best. The pictures on the DMH website and the Heritage Shorthorn site are not comprehensive or up to date and do not even begin to represent their type changing quality.
I came home with a Cat 20 grandson (Felix) and a Cat 20 granddaughter out of a Maverick daughter out of a Minn Max daughter. Four heifers are at the Iowa feed trial. This is just a heads up to you guys that this is a good year for outstanding breeding combinations if you have a Heritage influenced program.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 08:49:54 AM
There are regions in genome that are sensitive to mutation.

It’s not out of the question that multiple spontaneous mutations could occur in the same gene at the same spot.

Odds are probably affected by whether it’s a transition or transversion mutation.

It’s not clear yet I don’t think why different areas of the genome are susceptible to mutation from whatever like x-rays, UV, replication errors.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 18, 2020, 08:58:47 AM
I also came home with a white Leader 6th grandson. This animal was longer bodied than anything else in the pen and lighter boned. None of the other L6th grandsons were built this way.  I have to admit their is something in him that makes me think of Whitehall Sultan, and my hope is that he will be an outstanding  A2 cowmaker for my Blue Grey program of Galloway crosses.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 09:45:04 AM
Make sure you feed him in a contemporary group and get them all scanned.

That type is one type that is a suspect for marbling.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Medium Rare on January 18, 2020, 10:42:48 AM
Based on what I have been reading and learning lately the F94l variant is also called the profit gene as it improves cutability without adding any calving difficulty.  So if it occurs in native Shorthorns why is it a bad thing?

It appears a Native homozygous F94L bull calf has recently been identified, so it appears to be readily available if a program is looking to add the gene to it's population.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on January 18, 2020, 11:00:46 AM
The myostatin mutation probably came from Holland originally.   George Culley,  in his book Observations on Livestock,  published in 1786,  describes cattle imported from Holland called lyery or doubled-lyery.   They were described as follows in a quote from his book:  "it will feed to vast weight,  and though you feed it ever so long,  yet will not have one pound of fat about it, either within or without and the flesh (for it does not deserve to be called beef) is as black and coarse-grained,  as we generally suppose horse-flesh to be."    "However,  by the pains and attention of the breeders,  this useless disagreeable breed is now pretty well out of the country.   No man will buy one of this kind,  if he knows any-thing.  .   .  for people conversant with cattle very readily find them out,  from their round form all over,  particularly their buttocks,  which are turned like a black coach-horse."    This was before the publication of Coates' Herd Book in 1822 and this suggests that this gene had been severely discriminated against and mostly eliminated from the breed.   Reading early Shorthorn history books published subsequent to that date do not describe any cattle in the breed like this.  It is probable that  myostatin was already in the Maine Anjou progenitors (the Mancelle breed) in Europe before the Shorthorn  influence was introduced by the use of Durham bulls imported from England in 1839. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 12:05:09 PM
So if it occurs in native Shorthorns why is it a bad thing?


like most human logic, if it came from what i support, it's good.
if it came from something i don't support, it's bad.


it's the origin of morality, religion, etc.


the appeal of the argument is that it can never be refuted and anyone who disagrees is a pagan etc.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 12:13:36 PM
It is probable that  myostatin was already in the Maine Anjou progenitors (the Mancelle breed) in Europe before the Shorthorn  influence was introduced by the use of Durham bulls imported from England in 1839.

maine's have at least two variants.
since maine's are 70% shorthorn by (declaration only) and 30% mancelle, who really knows where the variant came from.

at the time breeds "originated", they were a mishmash of everything they were selected based only on a couple of easily reproducible traits like color, and propensity for a production trait that was obviously selected for until we have the inbred populations we have now.

breeds essentially evolved with man's ability to travel, protect their assets, a whole host of other factors before the concept of breed associations.

really, breed associations just weeded out "bad" stuff in the beginning and humans popularlized easily identifiable hide color and other easily identifiable traits.

it's why you see holstein in maine's and anything and everything in everything.

breeds have almost lost their utility as now we are barely entering the beginning of looking past the hide.

breeds are just a way to create pyramids of resources.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 18, 2020, 01:23:46 PM
I also came home with a white Leader 6th grandson. This animal was longer bodied than anything else in the pen and lighter boned. None of the other L6th grandsons were built this way.  I have to admit their is something in him that makes me think of Whitehall Sultan, and my hope is that he will be an outstanding  A2 cowmaker for my Blue Grey program of Galloway crosses.
regarding DMH Snowball....I reviewed an old post by r.n.reed that referred to the Magic Sultan Marshall cross. Maybe I am not so crazy to have a knee jerk impression of Whitehall Sultan when I look at this calf.
I will get a picture of the Leader 6th grandson and the Cat 20 grandson when I'm out this evening. Go back to page 3 to see my post about the Cat 20 grandsons I visited in Minnesota.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 18, 2020, 01:46:06 PM

It is probable that  myostatin was already in the Maine Anjou progenitors (the Mancelle breed) in Europe before the Shorthorn  influence was introduced by the use of Durham bulls imported from England in 1839.

maine's have at least two variants.
since maine's are 70% shorthorn by (declaration only) and 30% mancelle, who really knows where the variant came from.

I think we should take a more holistic view of mutation and try to understand the conditions that influence mutations, duplications, insertions, deletions, translocations, etc.
Artificial selection pressure in an artificial environment (domestication and confinement) could predictably influence the regulation of signaling for the inhibition or amplification of gene expression.
Myostatin, as I understand it, is involved in homeostasis of skeletal and muscle development.
Inhibit myostatin signaling and hyper expression occurs.
Exaggerate signaling and atrophy occurs.
Nature has genetic mechanisms...hacks or mutations...adjustments...that seek to correct imbalance.
My view is that Myostatin regulation is impaired by confinement, so nature seeks to overcome loss of muscle mass  feeding by blocking Myostatin expression.
What about draught? Here we have over training of muscles beyond what is normal used in the wild.  Somehow, again reduction in Myostatin expression is being signaled. In one instance to overcome hypertrophy, in another in response to overexertion.
Add to this the modern practice of growth hormone implants.
Why would we not expect to see similar genetic solutions to regulatory challenges in the same region of the same Chromosome across breeds? Mutation is neither random nor spontaneous. Mutation is a response  to alterations in metabolic pathways due to deviations from the conditions under which the pathway evolved.
These are just thoughts, and not that well thought out. I am just trying to advocate a modern synthesis view of how genetic expression changes rather than a narrow search for a single mutated ancestor.

at the time breeds "originated", they were a mishmash of everything they were selected based only on a couple of easily reproducible traits like color, and propensity for a production trait that was obviously selected for until we have the inbred populations we have now.

breeds essentially evolved with man's ability to travel, protect their assets, a whole host of other factors before the concept of breed associations.

really, breed associations just weeded out "bad" stuff in the beginning and humans popularlized easily identifiable hide color and other easily identifiable traits.

it's why you see holstein in maine's and anything and everything in everything.

breeds have almost lost their utility as now we are barely entering the beginning of looking past the hide.

breeds are just a way to create pyramids of resources.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 06:13:29 PM
Inhibit myostatin signaling and hyper expression occurs.


this would be another mechanism independent of a causal snp.


there may be some interactive effect, but probably hard to quantify.


perhaps what is really interesting is if this mechanism is in epd's and inflating or deflating them depending upon something else we don't understand yet.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 06:16:03 PM
Mutation is a response  to alterations in metabolic pathways due to deviations from the conditions under which the pathway evolved.


please find a reference. if this were true, there would be a lot more mutations.


current mutations are in line with dating evolutionary branch points.


this would disturb that whole premise.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 18, 2020, 07:13:46 PM
The myostatin mutation probably came from Holland originally.   George Culley,  in his book Observations on Livestock,  published in 1786,  describes cattle imported from Holland called lyery or doubled-lyery.   They were described as follows in a quote from his book:  "it will feed to vast weight,  and though you feed it ever so long,  yet will not have one pound of fat about it, either within or without and the flesh (for it does not deserve to be called beef) is as black and coarse-grained,  as we generally suppose horse-flesh to be."    "However,  by the pains and attention of the breeders,  this useless disagreeable breed is now pretty well out of the country.   No man will buy one of this kind,  if he knows any-thing.  .   .  for people conversant with cattle very readily find them out,  from their round form all over,  particularly their buttocks,  which are turned like a black coach-horse."    This was before the publication of Coates' Herd Book in 1822 and this suggests that this gene had been severely discriminated against and mostly eliminated from the breed.   Reading early Shorthorn history books published subsequent to that date do not describe any cattle in the breed like this.  It is probable that  myostatin was already in the Maine Anjou progenitors (the Mancelle breed) in Europe before the Shorthorn  influence was introduced by the use of Durham bulls imported from England in 1839.
So if I am reading between the lines correctly you are saying that the meat quality might not be very good, correct?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 18, 2020, 07:58:32 PM
I don’t know if I would make that conclusion.

The double muscle breeds were bred that way for “better” meat quality.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 18, 2020, 08:37:19 PM
Yes the Piedmontese pay a premium for the Myostatin gene.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on January 19, 2020, 10:09:35 AM
In the time before 1786,  lyery or doubled-lyery cattle evidently had poor quality meat and were descriminated against.   In the 230  years since then,  there  has been selection pressure exerted to find cattle with good meat quality combined with myostatin.   
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 19, 2020, 12:07:31 PM
In the time before 1786,  lyery or doubled-lyery cattle evidently had poor quality meat and were descriminated against.   In the 230  years since then,  there  has been selection pressure exerted to find cattle with good meat quality combined with myostatin.


there probably is some historical evidence of this.


not many people would think to even try this.


now there is pressure to reduce the use of double muscled cattle that don't have an intermediate effect in the homozygous state like Piedmontese cattle.


in Maines in France, the test and report culard (double muscle) status.


Limousin I think may be trying to market a hetero status product.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 19, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
Mutation is a response  to alterations in metabolic pathways due to deviations from the conditions under which the pathway evolved.


please find a reference. if this were true, there would be a lot more mutations.


current mutations are in line with dating evolutionary branch points.

this would disturb that whole premise.

Well, not surprisingly, my way of thinking turns out to be controversial. https://www.science-frontiers.com/sf064/sf064b07.htm (https://www.science-frontiers.com/sf064/sf064b07.htm)
The controversy concerns directed mutation, also called adaptive mutation. But, at least others have come to similar conclusions.
Keeping in mind that I am not an academic, but rather someone more interested in asking questions than defending ideas (many wrong ideas must be considered in the pursuit of better understanding) I persist in trying to conceptualize mutation as a response to stress rather than a random error. Myostatin mutations seem to be of two sorts...deletion of information and garbling of information. Myostatin research on fish turns out to be far more interesting than in mammals because the Myostatin occurs in many kinds of tissue, not just muscle. In mammals, Myostatin also regulates the storage of brown fat in adipose cells. Brown fat is the fat that is available for instant energy...running away from preadators, for example. Is this brown fat intramuscular fat? I think so, so it's of interest to us in terms of juicy tender meat. So, the "good" Myostatin mutation may result in increased ability to form muscle and increased ability to store brown fat. This fits pretty good with my cattle bred to pull a plow all day long. I'll call that the Conan hypothesis.But, I may have it all backwards. I'm still learning about this.
https://phys.org/news/2017-05-genetic-mutation-trade-offs-parallel-evolution.html (https://phys.org/news/2017-05-genetic-mutation-trade-offs-parallel-evolution.html)
https://elifesciences.org/articles/24669 (https://elifesciences.org/articles/24669)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 19, 2020, 07:48:43 PM
without diversity and a slow mutation rate, the ability to respond to environment is muted.


angus is bottlenecking it's population, the breed association knows it.


it's up to other breeds to preserve diversity, leverage it, and preserve it.


almost no breed has done this.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 19, 2020, 08:03:15 PM
the number of muscle cells is not increased, only their size.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 19, 2020, 08:27:49 PM
Brown fat is pretty confusing. It seems different from intramuscular fat. Myostatin is also involved in insulin sensitivity. http://www.oncotarget.com/index.php?journal=oncotarget&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=16822&path%5B%5D=53810 (http://www.oncotarget.com/index.php?journal=oncotarget&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=16822&path%5B%5D=53810)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 19, 2020, 08:51:09 PM
This is pretty interesting about breed differences in Brown Adipose Tissue in newborn calves and cold tolerance. Protein intake and cold exposure of the dam influences this. The brown fat produces non-shivering heat.
“We know calves born to cows that have gone through cold stress are usually a little bigger when they’re born. Other research has shown those calves and lambs that are born to dams that have been cold stressed posses more brown adipose tissue, or brown fat. It’s a way for those calves and lambs to adapt in utero,” explains Carstens.
The article comparing Angus and Brahman calves found that Brahman calves had higher mortality rates, especially as the temperature dropped.
“Angus calves exhibit approximately 25 percent higher peak metabolic rates than Brahman calves, which may contribute to their greater cold tolerance. It was our hypothesis that reduced BAT thermogenesis in Brahman calves may be caused by limited BAT ontogenic development during the third trimester,” states the article.
Researchers also found that Angus calves had 60 percent more cells per gram of BAT, which consequently had 60 percent more adipocytes.   
Breed selection, nutrition and supplementation are all important factors that can be used to reduce cold stress and mortality and potentially increase BAT levels in newborns. As spring storms sweep across parts of the state, calf survival in cold temperatures is an important concern to many producers.
https://wylr.net/the-roundup/archives/239-livestock/cattle/2259-brown-adipose-tissue-increases-heat-production-in-newborn-calves-and-lambs
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 19, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
https://nutritionrestored.com/blog-forum/topic/less-poison-vitamin-a-in-cattle-more-brown-fat-the-good-bodyfat/ (https://nutritionrestored.com/blog-forum/topic/less-poison-vitamin-a-in-cattle-more-brown-fat-the-good-bodyfat/)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 19, 2020, 09:50:02 PM
would be interesting story of who figured this out 200+ years ago.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 20, 2020, 07:35:35 AM
In my understanding, double muscle is part of west european cattle population.
Possibly was introduced on Shorthorn cattle through cattle from The Netherlands region on the breed formation on XVII century.
If Maine Anjou, Belgina Blue and other doube muscle breeds got their genes from Shorthorn or not will to be a question to be answered through adequate genetics tests.
By the way this population on west europe has this genes as many breeds without Shorthorn genes also show DM and cullard type as Parthenais, Aubrac, Asturiana de los Valles.
Bred and use the genetics that is useful for you. But, have in mind that the action always came with reactions.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 20, 2020, 09:33:31 AM
Here is a very good summary of Myostatin considerations from the Beef Shorthorn Society in the U.K.
https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2001/myostatin-and-its-use-in-beef-shorthorn-breeding (https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2001/myostatin-and-its-use-in-beef-shorthorn-breeding)

It is a follow up on this article.
https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn (https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 22, 2020, 06:28:03 AM
Thanks Librarian. Good articles.

Point 1 - "... This is not a surprise given that the first documented case of double muscling was 200 years ago in Durham cattle." ---- So, DM is credited to be inserted in the Shorthorn population, but seeing old pics, and I saw thousands, never saw a DM animal. Maybe Dm was in so little level on the population that was expressed very few animals expressed it in decades. And, the recent widespread appearance is cause by the Maine Anjou influx that increased the genes of Dm frequency in the population, as two variants are shared by both breeds.

Point 2 - nt821 is shared by Angus, Limousin, South Devon, BB and Blondies. Interesting as Angus have not "official" influx or was introduced on that breeds.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 22, 2020, 09:38:02 AM
None of the defects the American Angus Association recognizes have been found in the Lowline Angus population- as all their foundation cattle were acquired prior to the continental/dairy infusion(marble bone) in the US.

None of the defects the American Shorthorn Association recognizes have been found in the Native Shorthorn genetics, with the exception of clipper king who just so happened to phenotypically appear to be a roan Galloway and just so happened to have acquired TH, a defect only known to be in the Galloway breed prior.

I’m not sure it takes a geneticist to perform a little deductive reasoning.
 

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 22, 2020, 01:30:35 PM
It doesn’t matter what came from where.

Nothing is pure.

Pedigree tree is useful whether the same land race or not.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 01:48:08 PM
None of the defects the American Angus Association recognizes have been found in the Lowline Angus population- as all their foundation cattle were acquired prior to the continental/dairy infusion(marble bone) in the US.

None of the defects the American Shorthorn Association recognizes have been found in the Native Shorthorn genetics, with the exception of clipper king who just so happened to phenotypically appear to be a roan Galloway and just so happened to have acquired TH, a defect only known to be in the Galloway breed prior.

I’m not sure it takes a geneticist to perform a little deductive reasoning.

Of course I agree whole heartedly with this.
However, I still maintain that mutations are balancing responses to physical and environmental stress. Myostatin mutations rebalance the signaling pathways for regulating differentiation of muscle cells, fat cells and bone cells. There is a lot of Myostatin research going on in obesity, and diabetes treatment as well as fat burning, weight loss and and muscle building. This is not really an on off switch, but regulation of energy resources with trade offs concerning which cells differentiate and propagate.
I remember reading about Waygu and how weaning calves straight on to high energy diets caused cells that would ordinarily develop into muscle cells into fat cells. The calves are forced into insulin resistance and become essentially obese diabetics. But they are finished before they die of liver dysfunction or whatever diabetic condition they develop. With double muscling, the script is flipped. More muscle progenitor cells differentiate and the trade off is smaller adipocyte cells more densely packed into the space not taken up by extra muscle. As I am able to understand it...I don't understand it very well. Perhaps others can help unpack this paper in terms of what the adaptive trade offs are.
https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/157/1/282/2251849
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 01:51:45 PM
And back to Heritage genetics regarding the phenotype remarks in the Denver bull thread. One cross of Haumont goes a lonnnng way.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 02:07:19 PM
The Conan Hypotesis actually seems to have some merit.
"In conclusion, our results suggest that myostatin endows skeletal muscle with high oxidative capacity and low fatigability, thus reg-ulating the delicate balance between muscle mass, muscle force, energy metabolism and endurance capacity."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Raphael_Denis/publication/263432884_Myostatin_is_a_key_mediator_between_energy_metabolism_and_endurance_capacity_of_skeletal_muscle/links/00b4953b126c59aa96000000/Myostatin-is-a-key-mediator-between-energy-metabolism-and-endurance-capacity-of-skeletal-muscle.pdf?origin=publication_detail (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Raphael_Denis/publication/263432884_Myostatin_is_a_key_mediator_between_energy_metabolism_and_endurance_capacity_of_skeletal_muscle/links/00b4953b126c59aa96000000/Myostatin-is-a-key-mediator-between-energy-metabolism-and-endurance-capacity-of-skeletal-muscle.pdf?origin=publication_detail)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Boreal on January 22, 2020, 02:40:55 PM
The Th defect in Galloway and the one in Shorthorn are different - so the Clipper King theory is wrong.

There have been other defects found in heritage Shorthorns. That doesn’t mean they aren’t heritage. The origin of most defects pre date the herd books of the breeds that contain them, so little can be deduced re: purity and defects.

nt821 is an old mutation shared by Galloway and Angus, among others. It’ll be in lowlines.

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 05:15:49 PM
The Th defect in Galloway and the one in Shorthorn are different - so the Clipper King theory is wrong.

There have been other defects found in heritage Shorthorns. That doesn’t mean they aren’t heritage. The origin of most defects pre date the herd books of the breeds that contain them, so little can be deduced re: purity and defects.

nt821 is an old mutation shared by Galloway and Angus, among others. It’ll be in lowlines.
I did not know this. It's very interesting. My total agreement was that there was a Galloway infusion in Clipper King of Bapton.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 05:22:25 PM
Got some pictures today of my Heritage Shorthorn acquisitions.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 05:27:44 PM
This was the only one in the pen of this phenotype. He is to be used on Galloway cows to breed Blue Greys. The theory being that mating different phenotypes produces more heterosis.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 05:32:00 PM
Paternal half sibs
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 22, 2020, 06:22:14 PM
These calves have been here a week. I'm sure the feed was much better at DMH. This is late cut prairie hay and the roan bull has definitely gained weight since coming here. They get all they want of this hay and mineral. The white bull has lost weight, or at least lost gut. Very fascinating how the genetic cards get dealt.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: aj on January 23, 2020, 08:50:12 AM
Who is DMH?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: aj on January 23, 2020, 09:16:34 AM
The DMH Felix bull really interests me.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 23, 2020, 09:27:56 AM
Who is DMH?
DMH Cattle Company. Scroll down to Minnesota on this Heritage Shorthorn Society Breeders page. Their program is essentially crossing old Heritage beef sires from the pool of semen Roy Lovaas assembled on Native Shorthorn cows. Then they use the sons and daughters from those matings in different combinations useful in different contexts. Native/ Hertage Shorthorn genetics range from milking to beef type. The Haumont Maid of Promise 189th cow and the Rosabell 436th cow have worked especially well in the beef type crosses....or so I think.
  https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/breeders (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/breeders)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 23, 2020, 09:29:48 AM
The DMH Felix bull really interests me.
That Cat 20 is a type changer.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: aj on January 23, 2020, 03:20:54 PM
I hate to jump the gun or anything......would he be up for sale or rent in a couple years?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 23, 2020, 04:31:17 PM
maybe. I'll remember you want him when the time comes. He still has a long way to go to prove himself.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on January 24, 2020, 09:32:24 AM
Nice calves!    Too bad there is no weaning weights recorded.   Also,  with birth weights of 72 and 74 pounds,  yet they still have a recorded calving ease of 2.    Is this owner just a nervous nellie,  or did they really need a little  help?    Births weights that small should just spit them out without thinking.    Finally,  with all the talk about Myostatin,  are  you going to have them tested?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 24, 2020, 10:08:14 AM
Other than a testament to the quality of the environment they were raised in, what other insight would an actual weaning weight provide you with?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 24, 2020, 03:28:24 PM
Performance, indicated to some degree by weaning weight, ADG, and yearling weight certainly has some significance to me.  Many of you aren't old enough to remember 350-400 pound weaning weights on good Iowa bluegrass pasture, but I am.  I am more interested in calves that have the genetic ability to perform much better than that on my same pasture, handled the same way.  I don't need a lecture on the efficiencies of small cows.  The cows that raised those 350 pound calves didn't come close to weaning half their body weight.  Their udders hung so low the calves had to almost lie down to nurse.  I don't care what anybody else does, but I'm not real interested in cattle that look like Clipper King of Bapton or Cat 20.  If you ever have a chance, read the Leader 21 story from the old Thomas-Gordon-Draper sales catalogs.  He was an outlier, not at all like the other bulls in the sale where Bob Gordon bought him. That's why he bought him so cheap.   He became popular as a show sire.  That's why ABS had him and there's so much semen around.  He sired some performance and increased frame size.  If you'd look through the old Shorthorn Worlds, about half of the Shorthorn bulls advertised in the late 60's and early 70'w were sons of Leader 21.  Breeders were looking for what he offered.  Most of the heritage bulls that are being used today, were also popular  show sires in their day.  I have semen in my tanks from a dozen of those old bulls.  All but one was either a good show bull in his day or sired some show winners. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: aj on January 24, 2020, 04:20:04 PM
I do know that the bulk of Shorthorn cattle today are for the show ring. I bet I have bought seven of these show ring type bulls and zero of them had enough fleshing ability to last in my environment. These cattle don't deserve to be even looked at in todays beef industry. I don't think that that just a little bit of fleshing ability would hurt the breed right now. I get so sick of the show ring lines of cattle that have a feed bucket of show feed permanently tied to their head. It makes me cry that this is where 90% of the cattle are.....in the breed right now.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 24, 2020, 05:33:29 PM
But environment. We all raise them in a different one. I left the calves on the cows until just now. April/ May calves. My roan bulled weighed 750 today when we walked him across the scale. Is that a testament to his growth or my ability to provide enough fresh forage each day to maximize his growth potential. His dam weighs 1200 pounds wet. Ears half froze off. But she made a athletic bull calf that is a hog. I am in charge of running cows here on 500 acres of mostly fescue/ clover and bluegrass. Will the same animal that thrives here thrive in your environment AJ? I don’t know. The cows here have to walk a lot to graze and drink. A lot. But the grass is ******* deep too.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 24, 2020, 05:51:42 PM
His performance is a direct reflection of his ability to grow and perform in the environment you provide.  Some of the older type bulls I did not like would sire calves that couldn't approach 500 pounds in the time yours took to reach 750.  Some bulls of today wouldn't either, for that matter.  If you've got cows you're happy with that raise calves that you're happy with, I wouldn't change a thing.  The trick is to find the next herd sire that improves or at least maintains what you've got. 

Show type cattle have needed a shot of real fleshing ability for a long time.  It's easier to make them look "fuller" with all the who knows what that's done to some of them, but it doesn't help them in the pasture.  I've had pretty good luck over the years either raising my own bulls or purchasing them from folks that raise them similarly to how I do.     
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 24, 2020, 06:53:22 PM
Performance, indicated to some degree by weaning weight, ADG, and yearling weight certainly has some significance to me.  Many of you aren't old enough to remember 350-400 pound weaning weights on good Iowa bluegrass pasture, but I am.  I am more interested in calves that have the genetic ability to perform much better than that on my same pasture, handled the same way.  I don't need a lecture on the efficiencies of small cows.  The cows that raised those 350 pound calves didn't come close to weaning half their body weight.  Their udders hung so low the calves had to almost lie down to nurse.  I don't care what anybody else does, but I'm not real interested in cattle that look like Clipper King of Bapton or Cat 20.  If you ever have a chance, read the Leader 21 story from the old Thomas-Gordon-Draper sales catalogs.  He was an outlier, not at all like the other bulls in the sale where Bob Gordon bought him. That's why he bought him so cheap.   He became popular as a show sire.  That's why ABS had him and there's so much semen around.  He sired some performance and increased frame size.  If you'd look through the old Shorthorn Worlds, about half of the Shorthorn bulls advertised in the late 60's and early 70'w were sons of Leader 21.  Breeders were looking for what he offered.  Most of the heritage bulls that are being used today, were also popular  show sires in their day.  I have semen in my tanks from a dozen of those old bulls.  All but one was either a good show bull in his day or sired some show winners.
In my opinion big should be measured in pounds rather than inches.  Clipper King of Bapton weighed 2650 pounds that is big enough for me.  I am sure Cat 20 weighed well over a ton.  I have a young granddaughter of Clipper King of Bapton that my granddaughter showed in 4H that still has not had any grain.  I believe she has a bright future in producing grass fed genetics.  I recently sold a steer that weighed 1250 and hung an 830 pound carcass that sold for $2.80 a pound hanging weight.  He was a straight Native Shorthorn whose mama was might weigh 1200 and his daddy is not quite a frame score 4.  That is profitable.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on January 25, 2020, 01:01:55 PM
Well, nothing is changed. Show winners on the semen catalogues on the past, and show winners on the catalogues today. All stay equall on the end.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Jacob B on January 25, 2020, 02:18:43 PM
Oak view....extremely wise words couldn’t say it better. Do what works for you. Not what someone else tells you works for you wherever you are in this world. There is a huge disconnect from the real world and what we can do to an animal to make em expectable in the show ring. Do what works for you and what makes you happy for whatever end of spectrum you enjoy
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Jacob B on January 25, 2020, 02:20:22 PM
Plus, why should I talk about what the post is intended for. That’s not what we do on this board anymore, we always make it a fight to tell others what they should do. Who cares about what the original poster was asking haha
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 25, 2020, 05:56:03 PM
All threads eventually jump the shark and then they become like the word thread.


it's not good or bad.


people who want more content might try providing content or whatever.


don't expect a 100% related response.


it's just the way it is.


there is more information on this website regarding cattle than just about all the others combined.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 26, 2020, 09:05:23 AM
Oak view....extremely wise words couldn’t say it better. Do what works for you. Not what someone else tells you works for you wherever you are in this world. There is a huge disconnect from the real world and what we can do to an animal to make em expectable in the show ring. Do what works for you and what makes you happy for whatever end of spectrum you enjoy

What is it that is working for you?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 26, 2020, 09:51:21 AM
Oakview do you still have your leader 9th son? I want to buy him if so

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 26, 2020, 11:47:14 AM
https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/classic-bulls/j-to-z#kinnaber-leader-9 (https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/classic-bulls/j-to-z#kinnaber-leader-9)
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 27, 2020, 08:58:35 AM
I sold my Leader 9th son a couple of years ago to a gentleman that markets organic beef.  He still has him and is very happy with him.  There's a photo of him on the ASA website.  He has been collected.  I have two sons that I am using.  They seem to be a combination of the things I liked about the Leader 9th bull himself with a little more "look" that I like.  I have used the Leader 9-18 bull for a few years and he is the easiest calving bull I have used along with siring calves with some eye appeal.

As far as what is working for me goes, I have a little of everything.  All I know is that I just turned 65 and need a lot less of it! 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 27, 2020, 10:28:14 AM
The white calf was born breech. I don't know about Felix, but I am very curious about the shape of the calves he will sire. This is a reservation I have and why I say he has a long way to go to prove himself.
Try to remember that I am a producer of grass fed beef. I don't have great grass and I'm not an intensive grazer. My cows are Galloways and Galloway/Shorthorn crosses. The Shorthorn crosses go to my old bull Amos, who was an ET bull from 60's semen. I have calves coming this summer from the DMH Ollie bull that was a Native x Lincoln Red Bull. His dam was a Minn Max daughter.
The Shorthorn maternal genetics in my population have a very long hip. My Galloway cows have a long hip. I won't use a bull with a short hip. I calve on pasture. I have a lot of confidence that the white calf, Snowball, who's sire is a Leader 6th son by a Maid of Promise 189th daughter, is going to work well for me as a maternal bull that I can save Blue Grey F1 cows from. Felix may be a terminal sire for weight gain on mediocre forage. All I know is that he hasn't missed a beat and is getting even fatter on the hay I'm giving him...which is bound to be low protein with our wet Nebraska summer. Will Felix transmit muscle gain on grass or fat gain? Only observation and following through under my own managment will give an answer. Direct marketing of beef is about flavor and tenderness. As long as finish weight at 20 months is 1000 lbs, I'm okay. Dressing % makes or breaks the profit margin. I'm not a superb business person and my goal is to provide holistic nutrition from farm to family. Cat 20 is not what I would consider optimal for the real world- but we don't know what he would look like on pasture after breeding 50 cows. All we can do is try something different. The beauty of a beef business is you can eat the mistakes. What I'm really looking for from Felix is a son out of one of my Amos x Galloway or Ollie x Galloway daughters or Snowball x Galloway daughters. I won't know who compliments the daughters and what the meat is like until I try.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 27, 2020, 10:31:23 AM
"Leader 6th son by a Maid of Promise 189th daughte" I'm supposed to say OUT OF about cows, not BY. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 27, 2020, 10:42:13 AM
The black cow with white underline is an Amos daughter out of a Galloway cow. She is a terrific F1 cow that raises better calves that my straight Galloway cows from the same cow family. As a calf, Amos was far more like the Felix calf than the Snowball calf. This is what I believe is the real usefulness of using Heritage Shorthorn genetics. Really using the old Shorthorn blood the way it has always been used...for complimentary crosses. I'm very appreciative of the work the Heritage Shorthorn Society is doing to make this possible.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 27, 2020, 11:15:24 AM
CSB has been using a Cat 20 son for several years and there is WHR info on 42 progeny.
https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=4198411
They also have a Leader 21 son in use.
https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=4162147
This is a real world operation in North Dakota and, I think, representative of working Heritage genetics x environmental interactions.

My Felix calf is by a Weston Resource son, but he is 3/8 Cat 20 by pedigree...I think. Adding up the percentages gets confusing.
 I can't find a photo of Weston Resource. Does anyone have a picture of him? Thanks.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 27, 2020, 12:41:51 PM
You are a prime example of a breeder utilizing the genetics available to produce what works for them.  More power to you. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on January 29, 2020, 04:29:22 PM
Shorthorn Country October 1981  Page C-4  Western Resource

Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 29, 2020, 04:34:47 PM
Thanks! I could not be more pleased  to find out what Weston Resource looked like and on pasture to boot!
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 29, 2020, 04:42:39 PM
I confess the way this calf is gaining condition is blowing my mind. I'm so happy I was able to get ahold of him before he was put on a "development ration". Whatever he grows into will be breeding, not feeding.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 29, 2020, 07:09:00 PM
I love the heart girth.  It is better than I remember.  I liked him back in the day but I didn't remember that much chest.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on January 29, 2020, 07:17:11 PM
I love the heart girth.  It is better than I remember.  I liked him back in the day but I didn't remember that much chest.
DMH Mr T is the Resource son. His calves looked good. Now that I see Resource, I may do a half sib mating from Mr T. Its neat that you saw the Weston herd for yourself.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 29, 2020, 11:09:04 PM
Doc was a friend of mine.  I worked for him a little, I learned a lot.  I had four Weston bulls.  My taste in cattle has changed.  In the 70s I would have liked less front than Resource shows in that picture.  Now that I am in the grass finished beef business I think that is spot on.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 30, 2020, 10:29:45 AM
Good looking deep bodied bull but I think most of what you see up front is just dewlap.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 30, 2020, 10:38:43 AM
Yes there is plenty of that but what I am talking about is from the shoulder blades down to just behind the front legs.  In the 70s I would have said he was a little out of balance, now I think that is a phenotype that I would like to work with.  I can put up with a little extra skin on the front.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 30, 2020, 11:47:41 AM
He has the appearance of many of the dual purpose bulls of his day.  After looking up the pedigree, I see why. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on January 30, 2020, 04:40:46 PM
Weston Resource -  45 registered calves,  3 birth weights,  2 weaning weights,  1 yearling weight.   Wow!   No wonder EPD's have a dismal reputation.   No data becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on January 30, 2020, 08:17:07 PM
Quote
Weston Resource -  45 registered calves,  3 birth weights,  2 weaning weights,  1 yearling weight.   Wow!   No wonder EPD's have a dismal reputation.   No data becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

Considering that he only has three offspring born in the 2000's and the rest in the early 1980's (one in 1989) would most of his offspring have not been born be prior to any type EPD system? In those days birth weight sometimes got recorded on papers and occasionally weaning weight but that wasn't very common in any breed back then and those numbers wouldn't have necessarily been transferred through from old pedigree systems to the new ones; not that it would matter without having proper management groups.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Okotoks on January 30, 2020, 11:01:55 PM
Weston Romeo was one of my favourite bulls, I saw him at Weston in 1978 as an aged bull but he still had lots of muscle and very long hip. He was a TPS Coronet Leader 21st son.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 31, 2020, 06:22:49 AM
Of the four bulls that I had from Weston my favorite was a Romeo son.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on January 31, 2020, 09:10:41 AM
Romeo was one of my favorites, also.  For those of you with old Shorthorn Worlds, look up Weston White Count and Weston Independence.  Mike Studer showed those bulls for Doc Nold.  White Count won Chicago and Independence was at least a class winner.  Two more of my favorite Weston bulls, both Leader 21 sons, I believe.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on January 31, 2020, 10:57:08 AM
Any of these genetics still around?  These deep chested bulls are exactly what I like to see. 
All to common to see bulls that have greater flank circumference than heart girth. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: kiblercattle on January 31, 2020, 03:46:13 PM
Here’s our Weston bull, Weston dingo a son of dynamo. This is him pictured as 2 year old as grand champion at the pacific international in Portland.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on January 31, 2020, 05:49:17 PM
Performance programs have been around a long time.  The first bull test station was in Texas in 1941.   In 1954,  The Red Angus Association of American became the first breed association to initiate a performance program.  In 1955,  a group of West Texas producers and Extension Agents developed Performance Registry International which quickly became national.   Milking Shorthorn had its own Gain Registry program which started in 1962.   In addition,  Milking Shorthorn originated the certified Native Shorthorn registry.   So it is discouraging that the great majority of bulls listed in this bull listing have ZERO DATA!
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on January 31, 2020, 07:00:56 PM
Back in the 70s I thought performance was the ability to gain fast.  Then Doc Nold told me that performance was the ability to turn something that we can't eat into something we can.  Now that I am producing gourmet grass finished beef. The rate of gain is not as important to me as the composition of the gain.   
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 31, 2020, 07:02:06 PM
Back in the 70s I thought performance was the ability to gain fast.  Then Doc Nold told me that performance was the ability to turn something that we can't eat into something we can.  Now that I am producing gourmet grass finished beef. The rate of gain is not as important to me as the composition of the gain. ///// Well put-Eliminate the sale barn Cretins
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: knabe on January 31, 2020, 07:10:39 PM
So it is discouraging that the great majority of bulls listed in this bull listing have ZERO DATA!


maybe the data is somewhere on paper and no one wants to find out what box it's in, or maybe it went out with the trash so lost forever.


that's the more likely scenario.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Heritage Shorthorn on January 31, 2020, 07:23:30 PM
I want to thank XBAR for asking the most pertinent question on this thread “Do any of these genetics still exist?”  Yes.  I know of several members of the Heritage Shorthorn Society who have these genetics, some of whom have posted on this thread.  The one I want to highlight is Wally Klose (Diamond K Shorthorns-Twin Bridges, Montana) who raises Heritage Influenced Shorthorns and owns a bull, Harvey Fulton 32A (ASA #4206631), who is the “spitting image” of Weston Romeo except he is bigger, thicker and still alive.  I have seen Harvey at different times of the year and he stays in amazing condition no matter what he has available to eat.  If you look closely at the Harvey pictures I have included you will see he is grazing on some of Wally’s “finest pasture”.   No Iowa corn for Harvey.  I am sure many of you know Wally and realize he runs a no frills operation.  They either make it or they are on a one way trip to town.  Harvey is sired by Kenmar President 26A and includes Kenmar Ransom 32Z, Pleasant dawn Seal 2nd, and HHFS Dream Weaver on his maternal side.  Wally’s market has always been the commercial cattlemen and he has made a living selling Shorthorns to that market for approximately 60 years.  Too bad there are not many Shorthorn breeders left that have his “MO” (modus operandi for Dragnet fans).
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on February 02, 2020, 01:43:41 PM
Quote
maybe the data is somewhere on paper and no one wants to find out what box it's in, or maybe it went out with the trash so lost forever. that's the more likely scenario.

Yes exactly - doesn't mean that it wasn't done, just that the time wasn't taken to hand add all this stuff into computer systems and/or transferred over as new computer systems were used. Even with the recent Canadian move to Digital Beef there were animals left off if they weren't deemed relevant (or so I understand).
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: Willow Springs on February 02, 2020, 01:46:40 PM
On another note - the semen from the older Heritage bulls sold really well the other day in Horseshoe Creeks Frozen in time sale.

Semen is near bottom of first page and there is more on the second.

https://edjeauctions.com/auction.php?aucid=141
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 10:00:21 AM
We have a lot more data than our fellow Breeders could easily acces in the pre computer age. Most of those breeders are alive and kicking and what is necessary is to go look at their cattle and ask questions. This method has worked for a long long time. You really don't know until you go look.
But the data we can access online is very rich. Just search the progeny of the old bulls. See who was used the most, then see how many progeny are recorded for the daughters and sons. In this case, search by Bulls, Name and Weston. Or Females, Name and Weston. Or any other herd prefix or animal name. Only by longevity of the individual through the longevity and influence of their get can you figure out if the animal was useful in the real world. Then you must ask, useful for what?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on February 03, 2020, 10:20:58 AM
Of course there's all sorts of information out there on many of those old bulls.  I've mentioned on this site several times the ASA sire tests of the mid to late 70's.  Nearly all of the bulls tested were either straight beef, straight dual, or a combination of the two.  Irish influence had not become extremely popular yet.  I believe there were about 25 bulls compared the year my bull was in the test.  The ASA has got to have this information somewhere.  I know it was published in the Shorthorn magazines of the day.  The test basically ran from conception to carcass.  My old ABS sire books also have performance information on the progeny of all their bulls, as do the other AI magazines I have.  The ABS issue I look at the most has performance data on progeny of Leader 21, Leader 9, Merriwong Smuggler, Lone Pine Grand Society, and there's another Australian bull I can't remember.  Unfortunately, most of this data has been neglected for many years.  It's out there.   
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 10:37:05 AM
These are half sibs by the Weston Resource son. The bull is out of a Cat 20 daughter and the heifer is out of a DMH Maverick daughter. Maverick is by Ball Dee Perfect Count. Both come from Cherry Blossom cows by Promise A Chief 01...I think we have plenty of reason to believe these genetics will perform even without the (low accuracy) epd's the cattle industry is trying to convince us can predict the future. As recorded data...well it all depends on the environment so we can start recording now and include better info on the plane of nutrition during gestation and growth to put those numbers in context.
Perfect Count photo from 1970.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 10:42:06 AM
And...In my ( limited) experience, I've never seen a calf grow as fast as this DMH Snowball call by a Leader 6th son. I don't understand how he is doing it...the other calves, including the homeborn Galloways and crosses are just going along steady, but this one is getting heavier and taller every day. I wish he was named Snow Chief or something.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: idalee on February 03, 2020, 11:09:23 AM
Glad to see the white bull doing so well,  but it reminds me of going to look at cows from breeders years ago and when asked how much milk they gave,  the answer was "Lots"!    Need to get weights on this bull and his contemporary group,  then we know how he performs compared to others under the same environment.    Also,  Promise A Chief -  63 calves,  40 birth weights,  18 weaning weights and zero yearling weights. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 11:29:40 AM
Idalee...no argument here. I'd like to see ultrasound for IMF as well. I was just wondering if I could load him every week and run down to the gravel pit to weigh the trailer...but there is so much mud right now it would never work. I'm afraid he is headed for frame 6.., not what I need.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on February 05, 2020, 06:12:38 PM
White bull reminds me a lot of a white ball dee royal commando son that was in the Oklahoma shorthorn sale 2017ish.   Same type as royal commando himself. To me that design appears exceptionally flat sided but the outcome may surprise me when crosses on some squattier type cows. 

I like a lot of these old bulls - wish those with access to semen on these bulls would breed them to native beef cows rather than the milking Shorthorns.  Anyone know of anyone doing this?
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: beebe on February 05, 2020, 06:25:36 PM
Tell me  where there are native Shorthorn cows that don't have dual blood in them and I will.  The Albaugh herd while having  dual purpose blood have compact smaller cows that produces grass finished beef for the California restaurant trade.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 05, 2020, 06:58:41 PM
When I was a kid I had Aberfeldy-louada-etc sired heifers and 2 by local dual bulls that were the best by far-outgrew everything and were the thickest of them all Those bulls were BIG-even by 80s standards and were thicker butted than anything around-including the Angus I dont know how much dual that horned bull in Closes ad has-i dont think much to look at him-He reminds me of a larger version the Leveldale and Waukaru bulls I used to see at the Eastern national in the 60s JMO-hes the best bull that has been recently alive in the ads on the native assoc O0
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on February 06, 2020, 08:59:26 AM
Tell me  where there are native Shorthorn cows that don't have dual blood in them and I will.  The Albaugh herd while having  dual purpose blood have compact smaller cows that produces grass finished beef for the California restaurant trade.

Yea I’m not sure if any exist either.  Maybe it’ll just take time: two or three top crosses to the old beef bulls to dilute to dual phenotype.   I hadn’t looked at Albaughs website in years. The bulls on there are as dual looking as you can find- though I did see some smaller beefier types shown on their fb page.

 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on February 06, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
Ball Dee Royal Commando was not a flat sided bull.  Several of us have phots, perhaps we can post one.  He was owned by Bert Moore's parents.  I know Bert has used him a little.  I would not be afraid of using him.  I'll post the photo I have as soon as my daughter has time to do it for me.  I will be shocked if you don't like his kind.  Some have told me he was a better breeding bull than Perfect Count.  I have semen on both, maybe some day I can find out for sure. 
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on February 06, 2020, 10:28:09 AM
You’re right- several of us do have photos.  Maybe more so than flat sided is how shallow his chest floor is.  This phenotype is nothing like the what I find desirable in the leader lines.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: oakview on February 06, 2020, 10:40:15 AM
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  I have had tons of Leader line cattle over the years.  None of them approached the top and rear quarter shown by the photo of Royal Commando.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: -XBAR- on February 06, 2020, 10:55:26 AM
Pretty is as pretty does.  And shallow chested bulls in my experience are much harder doing than the deep chested maternal types. 

‘Top’ and ‘rear quarter’.   Both terminal trait characteristics.   If I prioritized terminal trait characteristics, Charolais would likely be my breed of choice instead.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: librarian on February 06, 2020, 03:08:40 PM
White bull reminds me a lot of a white ball dee royal commando son that was in the Oklahoma shorthorn sale 2017ish.   Same type as royal commando himself. To me that design appears exceptionally flat sided but the outcome may surprise me when crosses on some squattier type cows. 
I like a lot of these old bulls - wish those with access to semen on these bulls would breed them to native beef cows rather than the milking Shorthorns.  Anyone know of anyone doing this?
Lincoln Red might be the only beef type Native genetics around. Looking at that old photo of Perfect Countt made me wonder if there is any Lincoln Red in him.
I think the beef looking type Shorthorn cow you are talking about can be acquired by using Minn Max Leader semen on a good dual type Native cow  or any un-ruined Shorthorn cow. Max is scurred. I don't know why, but Max throws a consistently wide backed and wide, long hipped 1100 lb cow that anyone would want to own. I always look for bulls out of Max daughters. His daughters  are short and easy to pick out of a group of maternally related animals.
Title: Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 06, 2020, 04:40:58 PM
Bad uphill picture of a Coming 3 year old whos been Out on cows and hay again  after 2 months-New EPDS are very good including below 0 BWS calves all are consistent with those EPDS other than one which is as good as it gets-One of the better Commercial Shorthorn bulls available.No Trump.No Canadian  ( But Hed sure compliment them in type),No Native till way way back when they were around the first time HOT COMMODITYx WILDSIDE DAM x 60 years of  all performance-Jungels Byland, Lauer, Tiemans etc=PS Wildside was one of the longest lived walking bulls EVER-and a very llegit EZ calver as well-100 plus year old herd,who have performance tested since it was initated  O0