Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: matt999 on January 14, 2017, 06:53:01 AM

Title: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on January 14, 2017, 06:53:01 AM
Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C. Super excited about making him available for everyone to use.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mbigelow on January 14, 2017, 03:09:03 PM
Great looking bull with great cow power top and bottom!!!  <cowboy> did you use him as a yearling at all or will his first come next year?  He could work well on some of the smaller made JPJ type cattle.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on January 14, 2017, 03:24:17 PM
He was out breeding cows on grass for 60 days til August 1 then came in to get ready for the fall shows. Should have his first calves the end of janurary from hand breeding cows in April and May. Here is a link to his video:
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4viCvwNYOo
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: DCIL on January 15, 2017, 09:14:09 AM
Where is the US semen stored?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on January 15, 2017, 10:30:22 AM
We are currently looking at a few places to have it distributed by. Won't be able to get it down there til the end of February first of march due to export testing. What company has been the easiest for people to get semen delivered from.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 15, 2017, 06:01:37 PM
This bull is the real deal IMO. I think he checks more of the boxes than any other bull I have seen this fall.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: andy on January 15, 2017, 07:57:02 PM
I saw that bull at Hill Haven in Sept.  I thought he was the most complete, useful Shorthorn bull I'd seen in a long time.  I've been critical of some modern Shorthorn cattle being very far removed from the commercial world, but this bull is what I, as a commercial cowman want. I'd agree with Grant wholeheartedly that he is the real deal.  If I still ran purebred Shorthorns, I'd be all over him.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: Larissa on January 16, 2017, 06:42:52 PM
The Hereford and Shorthorn shows run at the same time at Agribition so I happened to catch the Champion bull class. Myself and the girl I was watching it with had Fire Storm picked as our champion hands down. The calves that ended up winning were nice and I don't mean any disrespect to their owners but that's just how us Hereford girls thought things would pan out. Nice bull!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 19, 2017, 08:14:32 PM
The Hereford and Shorthorn shows run at the same time at Agribition so I happened to catch the Champion bull class. Myself and the girl I was watching it with had Fire Storm picked as our champion hands down. The calves that ended up winning were nice and I don't mean any disrespect to their owners but that's just how us Hereford girls thought things would pan out. Nice bull!


I think there was a lot of people on the Shorthorn side of the fence that agreed with you. The two calves that were named Champion and reserve, were very good calves, but Fire Storm was in a category of his own. He won the Royal Winter Fair, in Toronto, and I heard people calling him the best bull over all breeds at the show. This bull is pretty exciting I think!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on March 28, 2017, 07:24:13 PM
Finally getting HH Firestorm semen into the US!!!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: shortybreeder on March 28, 2017, 07:35:36 PM
He was out breeding cows on grass for 60 days til August 1 then came in to get ready for the fall shows. Should have his first calves the end of janurary from hand breeding cows in April and May. Here is a link to his video:
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4viCvwNYOo
Any calf pics? BW?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on March 29, 2017, 07:48:29 AM
Calves have been born from 93 to 100lbs all have been unassisted. our calves in general have been 7lbs heavier on average this year. No pics way to much mud and feel that it wouldn't do them justice.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: 764wdchev on March 29, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
Did you find a USA distributor? Can we access his semen in the USA?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on March 29, 2017, 11:29:09 AM
Yes we did. Cattle Visions will have him listed by the end of the week.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: lingleylivestock on March 31, 2017, 03:00:45 PM
I really like this guy. He comes from some pretty awesome cow lines. Congrats on raising him! I can't wait to see offspring from him.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on March 31, 2017, 03:19:30 PM
Thanks we really like him he is going to be breeding all are donor cows that aren't related to him. Also the better cows in the herd. The few calves we do have look the part thick and hairy. His 3 full sisters will be a sale feature this fall in our sale. He looks even better now than he did last fall. Have had a lot of people purchase semen on him so far this spring.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: kiblercattle on March 31, 2017, 03:24:06 PM
He looks good but you should breed him to everything from for what little my opinions worth. Find out how good he really is my best cows would have a good calf if I bred them to a goat I think! 😂
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on March 31, 2017, 03:32:35 PM
He will get his fair share of cows forsure. We just have a very extensive embryo program so a lot of cows get eggs first. Plus we have a lot of Swagger and Waco daughters in the herd also.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on April 02, 2017, 09:27:21 AM
I have already flushed 2 donors to Fire Storm and am planning a few more flushes to him this spring. I am already planning to order more semen. As I said earlier, this bull is the real deal. When he showed at Agribition, I had a couple well known breeders in another popular breed tell me, that they wished they had a bull like him in their breed.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on May 31, 2018, 10:01:09 PM
Upcoming ad in Shorthorn Country herd reference issue

Firestorm ended his show career last fall winning Supreme champion bull over all breeds at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto Canada. Then went to the Canadian western agribtion and was selected Canadian National Champion bull and went on to make the top 10 RBC Supreme. Calf reports have been awesome.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: psmith624 on January 02, 2019, 01:56:35 PM
Do you have any data on his sexed semen conception rates? I am considering using him on my shorthorn cattle. His video and EPDs are impressive. Nice bull!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on January 02, 2019, 02:47:49 PM
We are loving our firestorm heifer calves we got last year and so far this year. We didnít get the Sexed semen til late last breeding season so didnít get a chance to use it ourselves but a guy bought 2 straws and went 2 for 2 for heifer pregnancies. If you look up sexing technologies website you can findout all the info on the sexed ultra 4M semen quality.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: psmith624 on January 02, 2019, 03:35:40 PM
Great! I may give it a try then. I have purchased conventional this year so I may try it with my spring calves. Thank you for your help!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on January 03, 2019, 09:03:55 AM
Progeny pics
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 03, 2019, 08:03:56 PM
I have been impressed with Fire Storm since I first saw him and have been using his semen in our ET program since it became available. I have just ordered another 20 straws, which makes 90 straws that I have used so far. I expect I will be using more in the future.
It seems that word is getting around the world as to how good Fire Storm and his offspring are, as I can hardly keep embryos sired by him in inventory. In the past two weeks I have had emails from Argentina and Chile asking only about Fire Storm embryos. I have already sent embryos by him to Australia, the UK and Ireland. A couple months ago, I posted a note on my facebook page offering a set of Fire Storm embryos and within minutes of posting, they sold to a breeder in Australia. I got real lucky, in that I found a tank that was being shipped to Australia that had room and we were able to get them to the buyer in a few days.  I am liking the calves I have seen from him as well
I was very fortunate to have been asked to be a judge of the Supreme Champions at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto in 2017. I thought Fire Storm was easily the winner, but I did wonder if a few people would accuse me of being partial to my own breed if I voted for him. It really wasn't a concern, as when the votes were in, every judge had picked him as Supreme Champion bull. The judges came from across Canada and the US, and some of them told me he was the best Shorthorn bull they had seen in years. I have a full sister to Fire Storm here that will be entering our ET program this spring.
Matt, Dale and Bob, you should be very proud of breeding and developing a sire like Fire Storm. I think he is a real breed improver!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: uluru on January 04, 2019, 08:18:16 AM
I have a Firestone heifer born 2 days ago
Matt says she looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 11, 2019, 06:13:48 AM
 What are the birthwts like. Ive heard some pretty scary reports here and there RE Waco-on US Genetics-which can be prone to calving problems O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 11, 2019, 08:28:33 AM
I am not hearing any horror stories about calving problems from Fire Storm here in Canada. Of course, if there are birth weight issues, the sires almost always gets the blame. A few years ago, I purchased some semen from a well known calving ease trait leader, and I used a few straws. I had two bull calves born and I castrated both because they were over my own rule of any bull calf over 110 lbs gets banded at birth no matter how good they are. These two calves were the only two I banded in that calf crop. I don't think it was only because of the sire.  I wish we could have an easier way to discuss calving ease besides by using birth weights. Birth weights are a component of calving ease, but as a leading cattle buyer said to me, " if I wanted lighter birth weights, the first thing I would do is select genetics that would produce shorter bodied calves". To me, this makes some sense. I have been told that taking 1 inch out of the rib of a new born calf represents 8-10 lbs, I have never been able to find research to prove if this is correct or not, but one person told me that Oregon State did some research that found this to be true.
Getting back to Fire Storm, I am pretty sure that we would be hearing about the horror stories if they were happening out there. So far, I have heard none. In regards to his sire, Waco, I looked back in my calving records and I have had 8 Waco sired calves born here. All unassisted with BWs of 90-102 lbs.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: -XBAR- on January 11, 2019, 10:31:35 AM
Blah blah blah  your post need to include a disclaimer that your cows are 500-800lbs bigger than most and that you regularly use the very highest birthweight genetics IN THE ENTIRE BREED.  This preface would provide some CONTEXT to your bullshit comments about birthweight.

Just the other day on Facebook, JIT was prompting a bull as a potential heifer bull option. Bayview Unique is the bulls name.  Per the bullís home country registry, this bull is in the very bottom of the breed for both calving ease and birthweight.  With high accuracies nonetheless.   As opposed to using THE ONLY INFORMATION AVAILABLE on the bull, JIT instead injects more salesman bullshit and chooses to pass the dystopia risk on to the googly eyed unsuspecting.     Additional, immediately after this fb convo I got an email stating that the only calf born in Canada do date out of this particular bull was cranked out with a calf puller!  Thatís a fact. 

Waco has huge birthweights.  Thatís a fact.  This bull in this post is gonna have huge birthweights too.  How absurd is it to suggest that one specimen within a population is the exception to the entire lineage!! This bull and any other bred like him is gonna throw calves that revert to those all within the pedigree. Hello erratic birthweight city.   No one gives a **** about your anecdotes JIT.   There are literally hundreds of calves born across the country and in many times THE WORLD that dispute the opinions of a bullshit salesman like you.  Iíve talked to two people in S America who both told me MAJOR LEROY was the biggest birthweight bull they ever used. And these arenít pissants.  Iím talking people with hundreds of cows.  Myself and another guy in Texas used 2 different Major Leroy sons, and just like the S Americans experience with his sire,, these bulls had the largest bw calves either of us had as well.   The dishonesty of those LIKE YOU are the exact reason EPDS were created: to dilute your word and your reportings in favor of reportings from those who prefer HONESTY. 
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: -XBAR- on January 11, 2019, 10:45:04 AM
I have been impressed with Fire Storm since I first saw him and have been using his semen in our ET program since it became available. I have just ordered another 20 straws, which makes 90 straws that I have used so far.  I think he is a real breed improver!

90 straws youve used? Ninety? 9-0?  How many cows do you have JIT? What did you donflush them all twice?  ::)

Specifically what SH breed traits will this bull improve?  Birthweight, calving ease, fleshing ability, milk, marbling, fertility?  Because I have a pretty middle of the road herd of cows and this bullís infusion would worsen each of these traits I mentioned.  So again Iíll ask: what would this Ďbreed improverí  be improving?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 11, 2019, 08:51:43 PM
EPDS are only as accurate as the integrity of those report them. The Shorthorn breed has been drowning for years as far as real world usage-even though there are a few very serious breeders who are making a huge (and largely unheralded effort to correct some very basic problems through years of hard work and accurate documentation) My hats off these obviously are not all of them-Toby Jordan,Keith Lauer,Dale Allison,Byland, Jungels , Paint Valley and JMO the largest loss of a breeder as far as functional cattle that could also show Kevin Kimmerling  Unfortunately the show cattle EPDS might as well in a large part be picked from bouncing balls like the lottery. The most glaring example is a 0 BW EPD National show winning female Sired by SULL SALUTE ON A CF SOLUTION FEMALE THAT PROBABLY GOES BACK TO THESE FUNCTIONAL COMMERCIALLY APPEALING GENTICS AGAIN. I DO NOT SEE WITH ALL YOUR MONEY,SUCCESS, AND LUCK HOW YOU MR BIGSHOT COULD THINK EVEN THE MOST TRUE BELIEVING HANDRUBBING WANNA BE LEMMING THAT HAS MADE YOU WEALTHY WOULD BUY THAT SH%^&*)_T-OR YOU COULD WITH ANY KIND OF CONSCIENCE SQUANDER YOUR LIMITED CREDIBILTY LIKE A COMMON SHOP LIFTER AND ANY BREED SECRETARY THAT WOULD ALLOW EPDS LIKE THIS TO EXIST IN A STRUGGLING BREED SHOULD BE FIRED-GET MY DRIFT MR SOULES-THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WORK HARD AND DESERVE SOME INTEGRITY-NOT JUST THE FAT CATS-NO PUN INTENDED O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 12, 2019, 07:17:59 AM
I have no ideas what is wrong with you Ryan. It must be a pretty sad existence to have to live such a negative life. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care. I actually just got another 20 straws of Fire Storm since I posted the last post so I now have got 110 straws. The main reason I am using Fire Storm is that embryos sired by him are selling quickly. I have a partner in England who owns 10 donors with me. He tells me the Fire Storm embryos were the first to sell out. I have found the same thing. In regards to flushing cows, yes, I usually flush my donors at least twice, some 7-8 times before they come back home and get bred again. Right now, I have 7 cows at the ET center,  and I often have one or two more there. Why would I do this? Probably because I have made selling embryos a big part of my business. I just passed selling 2400 embryos in the fall of 2018 and they have gone to 14 countries. I am not bragging, it is a fact. There is a market for Shorthorn embryos if you work at developing a market. Two years ago, I sold the first Shorthorn genetics from North America to Costa Rica. I have recently got emails from Argentina, Chile and Sweden regarding Shorthorn embryos. I am doing it differently that most are, in that I do not concentrate on American show genetics. I will use them occasionally, but most of the time, I try to offer different genetics than most others do. My embryo inventory just arrived two days ago from the ET center and I have 358 embryos and have 3 more flushes in the next week. You  may be surprised to know that I just sold a set of 30 Shorthorn embryos to a guy in Texas. He has never owned a Shorthorn before.
I only commented on Fire Storm because I think he is a pretty good bull. I have not heard of any calving issues, but like any bull, use your head when you use him.
I have often heard that it is people who that are less successful than you are, who will attack you and that people more successful than you, will not. If this is true, you must be less successful than most any other breeder, because I have seen you attack most everyone. Unlike you, I will cheer for a good animal, regardless of it's breeding and regardless of who owns it, whenever I see one.
In regards to Bayview Unique K11, time will tell but from what I am hearing from Australia, he is going a good job. If you happened to even read what I said about him, I said that one breeder in Australia bred a group 70 heifers, and half were bred to Unique and half were bred to a calving ease trait leader. He said that there was no noticeable different is calving problems from each bull. I then said, until we see how he does in North America, I am not going to call him a bull to use on heifers. I had two young couples from Australia visit me 6 weeks ago, and they were very high on this bull and they said he looks far more impressive in real life, even in the severe drought they are experiencing. I have not seen the bull myself, but he is getting good reviews and I felt he offers some newer genetics. Time will tell if he works here, and if he doesn't, I will dump his semen. I am not going to lose my farm if I have to do so. So Ryan... please grow up!  I wish you would realize that you are hurting yourself more than you could ever hurt me by doing this.
One of the nice things about this business is that we don't have to use the same sires as anyone else. Ryan, you don't ever have to use Fire Storm, and quite frankly, I hope you don't. Just last night, I got an email from a guy who has just started calving and he mentioned that he has had 3 Fire Storm calves this week and they look very good. He didn't mention anything about calving problems, he just said his 3 calves looked very good and  that he was waiting for 2 more to arrive. He said he will be using more of him this year. And the reason for his email, was to ask me some questions on the Fire Storm embryos I have in our online embryo sale coming up later this month.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 12, 2019, 09:50:18 AM
Looks like a permanent case of buyers remorse and continuation of some earlier tantrums-XBAR is plenty smart enough to research breeding etc-and he made some valid points  supported by this-But he bought one that just didnt work on his genetics So did another guy in Texas-Which although the ones remarked about are performance cattle-appear to have some of the  the "low BW" Enticer Gold and maybe Byland Dazzler related breeding back there-which can be pretty adverse with some lines sometimes.  Thats the beginning of it-I do remember you stating that not everything out of Major Leroy was moderate at birth "and that you can get some big ones once in awhile out of him"-from what Ive heard here and there on my own-Better breed him to (hopefully) low BW genetics and or big cows down here-or make preparations for a train wreck That being said-the BWs are higher and the cows bigger up in Canada so a 100 pound calf is not a cow killer up there and probably more the norm Ive seen tons of bulls etc on sales up there with BWS over 100 pounds and the long and short is that Leroy at least through related experiences of a number of breeders-is a hard calving bull period. I think thats reflected in his EPDS-which I DO NOT SEE ON A GROUP OF US SHOW BULLS THAT ARE KNOWN COW KILLERS -in reality there are certainly alot of 100 pound calves down here too if they are shaped right and out of a cow with a large enough birth canalO0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: woodyc on January 12, 2019, 04:00:38 PM
I am not hearing any horror stories about calving problems from Fire Storm here in Canada. Of course, if there are birth weight issues, the sires almost always gets the blame. A few years ago, I purchased some semen from a well known calving ease trait leader, and I used a few straws. I had two bull calves born and I castrated both because they were over my own rule of any bull calf over 110 lbs gets banded at birth no matter how good they are. These two calves were the only two I banded in that calf crop. I don't think it was only because of the sire.  I wish we could have an easier way to discuss calving ease besides by using birth weights. Birth weights are a component of calving ease, but as a leading cattle buyer said to me, " if I wanted lighter birth weights, the first thing I would do is select genetics that would produce shorter bodied calves". To me, this makes some sense. I have been told that taking 1 inch out of the rib of a new born calf represents 8-10 lbs, I have never been able to find research to prove if this is correct or not, but one person told me that Oregon State did some research that found this to be true.
Getting back to Fire Storm, I am pretty sure that we would be hearing about the horror stories if they were happening out there. So far, I have heard none. In regards to his sire, Waco, I looked back in my calving records and I have had 8 Waco sired calves born here. All unassisted with BWs of 90-102 lbs.


would a longer calf not be easier born than a deeper bodied calf?  i suppose its all about balance in everything
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 12, 2019, 05:06:28 PM
I agree with that-but the hardest pulls ive seen were thick blocky calves that were too wide for the female attempting to have the calf O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: Duncraggan on January 13, 2019, 02:16:28 PM

Specifically what SH breed traits will this bull improve?  Birthweight, calving ease, fleshing ability, milk, marbling, fertility?  Because I have a pretty middle of the road herd of cows and this bullís infusion would worsen each of these traits I mentioned.  So again Iíll ask: what would this Ďbreed improverí  be improving?
With all due respect, I must stand up for XBAR here.  Fire Storm's January 2019 ASA EPD's are not impressive for me and I would also question what 'breed improver' traits he would bring to my herd.
Phenotypically he is very impressive though!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: idalee on January 13, 2019, 05:47:25 PM
Fire Storm's EPD information is genomicaly enhanced which significantly increases accuracy and reduces the effect of cherry picking progeny.   Furthermore,  there are only 13 calves actually recorded so far.   When you look carefully at his EPD information,  he is clearly a below average bull.    For Growth and Maternal,  only 42% of traits are above breed average.   For Intake and Carcass traits,  all five are minus,  and when you look at the index values,  $CEZ is less than 20,  and $BMI is only slightly above 113.   
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: beebe on January 13, 2019, 06:20:56 PM
Do you have a lot of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: Medium Rare on January 13, 2019, 07:39:39 PM
Do you have a lot of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle?

Now there's a topic for a new thread.

Add recent epd movement to the topic and it could get interesting.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 13, 2019, 07:52:40 PM
Good points beebe and Medium-CONSIDER THE SOURCE O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: idalee on January 14, 2019, 02:54:07 PM
I do use EPD in my breeding decisions.   Not as a last word,  but as a tool.   Furthermore,  I can see in some of my embryo purchases that I should have used that tool  a lot more!   Secondly,  when a result is substantially the same from two disparate processes,  that tends to validate both processes.   So,  yes I have some level of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle and that confidence will increase as more and more cattle are tested.   That goes directly to the heifer incentive program recently offered by ASA.   Genomic EPD enhancements have the power to increase both the accuracy and honesty of EPD evaluations.  In regards calving ease,  it would appear that the $CEZ is more useful than any of the individual components of that index by themselves.       
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 14, 2019, 06:54:29 PM
My God......cutting all bulls with a birth weight over 110 pounds? That is so noble.....bahahahahahahahah. You guys live in a completely different world than the one in the high plains of the United States. To each area his own I guess. Bahahahahahahahah
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 14, 2019, 07:38:37 PM
I thought the Hi plains were in Colorado or something-my bad there dont seem to be any in Colorado My bad you must be taking about Dunkirk Iowa or something O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 15, 2019, 08:34:23 AM
The high plains includes all or some of the following states.Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, South Dakota and Wyoming and Kansas. Essentially the top cow\calf producing states in the United States.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 15, 2019, 09:24:17 AM
Guys and girls.. I have no dog in this hunt. I just gave you my honest opinions on Fire Storm. I have talked with several people who have calves on the ground from him, and not one of them has made any comments about calving issues. If you don't want to use him, that is perfectly fine. If you don't like his EPDs, that is perfectly fine as well. Personally, I think Shorthorn EPDs are moving in the right direction, but I don't think they are where they need to be yet. I used a bull here a few years ago, that many of you bashed very hard. I used him because he had the most performance of any bull I have ever produced and did this with a modest BW. I was bashed almost beyond belief, but I felt this bull deserved as chance to be used. He sired 5 calf crops here and I did not assist a single calf born from him. 99% of his bulls went to commercial cattlemen, and I did not have a single complaint about calving issues. Not a single one. After his 3rd calf crop I contacted the ASA as I was told his EPDs would improve over time. I had not helped a single calf to be born, but his EPDs had barely moved, I was told that they would definitely move as more data was sent in. I continued to send in my data and they still hardly moved. One of my best bull customers is still using 2 sons of this bull and he runs 400 cows and calves on grass. He recently told me he hopes he can use these two bulls for few more years especially since their daughters have come into production. If I had listened to all the doom and gloom some of you here had given me, I would have not used a very important breeding bull here that did an excellent job. I retained a son of him that was even better than his sire. I sold him as a 8 year old bull last year and I am now working on selling all the semen left on him to another breeder. The European and Australian semen rights have been sold as well. I think we have to use our heads when breeding cattle as well as any other tool we have available. I think both these bulls helped improve my herd, and their genetics are now being used all over the world. If I had just listened to the wisdom provided on Steerplanet, I would have missed out on some of the best breeding bulls I have ever owned. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we all have to use our heads in breeding better cattle... not just emotions.
In regards to my banding any calf over 110 lbs, that was a BW I picked for no apparent reason many years ago. It was a place to start.  I was planning to move it lower if it was too high based on any issues that arose. I have not had any complaints from over 400 bulls sold since I set this as my high mark for BW. I prefer my bulls to be less than 100 lbs and most are in the 90 lb range. In our environment, I have started to tell bull customers that if their cows cannot have a 90 lb calf on their own, they better sell their cows and buy some that will. I have very good friends that raise Angus cattle, and I cannot believe the number of calves they have that are over 100 lbs at birth. With all this in mind, I think we would be better off, if we started talking more about calving ease as opposed to just talking about birth weights. Birth weights are part of the equation but so is calving ease.
Getting back to Fire Storm, I have absolutely no interest in him, other than I like the bull. I have seen his dam many times and she is the type of female that most of us would agree than any good bull should have. She is a beautiful female with an outstanding record of producing good offspring. That is all I know. Time will tell and I am quite sure we will know a lot more within the next few months, as more calves from Fire Storm are born. Right now, all I know is I like a lot of things this bull offers. I know a lot of people are using him. I know that embryos sired by him are selling fast to breeders in many countries. We will know soon if all these people are completely mad in using him! 
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
I know a guy who had 2,639 cows as of January 1st. In two states. His cut off for a bull birth weight is right around 80 pounds. If you think he oughta sell his cows.......you better pack your lunch.....and have at least an ar15 with you. You said you sold 99% of the one bulls sons to commercial guys.....? So you must have sold exactly 100 sons to come up with that number. Bless your heart.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 15, 2019, 01:35:43 PM
And don't get me wrong. I am glad the Shorthorn breed is thriving in the show cattle world. They are good cattle. A lot of Shorthorn cows can have a 110 pound calf. That's great. They have a good disposition. The Shorthorn breed has what...........about a 1 % market share in selling bulls to commercial people in North America? Shorthorn breeders of today tend to tell commercial people how to run their operations. When the Shorthorn breed listens to what the beef cow industry wants and needs.......they might actually become a player in the industry.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: oakview on January 15, 2019, 03:04:24 PM
Judging from the results of the recently released MARC data, maybe the cattle industry should listen a little to what the Shorthorn breed has to say.  I certainly hope this data is well publicized. 

Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 15, 2019, 03:29:27 PM
Got a link to that newly released data? Iíd like to read that.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: oakview on January 16, 2019, 04:22:59 PM
It's on the ASA website and some of it was in the January issue of Shorthorn Country.  I'll have to see if my daughter can help me post it.  Several breeds were tested for numerous traits including ADG, yield grade, backfat, quality grade, etc.  I'll let you judge the results for yourself, but in my opinion, they need to be plastered all over the bulletin boards of every sale barn, sent to every feed yard, and mailed to every feedlot order buyer in the US and Canada.  After seeing the results, it's hard for me to figure out why "They're worth more if they're black."

As long as I'm writing, I might as well voice my displeasure with the personal attacks on SP.  I wish there was a way they could be edited or removed all together.  It's pretty easy for somebody to publicly complain on a faceless computer when something doesn't go their way.  Life happens.  Unpleasant things have happened to all of us.  We want everything to work out perfectly for all of our friends and customers, but sometimes they don't.  We've all been on both sides.  I sincerely want everyone who has ever bought cattle from me to make a million dollars or win the national championship.  I believe most everyone I've ever bought cattle from wants the best for me.  I don't think there's any place on SP for what could be interpreted as defamation of character or blackmail. 
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 16, 2019, 06:16:28 PM
If I remember right......academia brought us to the "baby beef" belt buckle cattle. The cow calf people who have survived the last 30 years ought to be listened to. They don't give a damn about a full brother to a national champion bull. The ones who did went broke 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 17, 2019, 08:16:28 AM
And don't get me wrong. I am glad the Shorthorn breed is thriving in the show cattle world. They are good cattle. A lot of Shorthorn cows can have a 110 pound calf. That's great. They have a good disposition. The Shorthorn breed has what...........about a 1 % market share in selling bulls to commercial people in North America? Shorthorn breeders of today tend to tell commercial people how to run their operations. When the Shorthorn breed listens to what the beef cow industry wants and needs.......they might actually become a player in the industry.//// This Is Darrel Jenkins the West Va cowpoke-Wheres tha black Shorthorns ? O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: -XBAR- on January 17, 2019, 04:34:53 PM

I have just ordered another 20 straws, which makes 90 straws that I have used so far. 


I actually just got another 20 straws of Fire Storm since I posted the last post so I now have got 110 straws.


Getting back to Fire Storm, I have absolutely no interest in him,   

Devils in the details

Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 17, 2019, 05:58:19 PM
I agree -the devil is also in the genetics-and they will come back to haunt sometines quite a few generations later This is an example of the show cattle epds-heres a Waco son I thought was cool looking etc but his Shadybrook dam-also very nice in the pictures ALSO went back to what could be called popular Canadian breeding-It sure aint CE-Hes been on Semex for several years so he had to have been used some or they would not have kept him up there with the other 3 Shorthorns Hes called  Blenview Chaser204 C hes Sired by Waco SUPPOSEDLY WAS 96 pounds at birth -And only 3 calves have been registered out of him -one a heifer at 115 pounds Waco was used alot-and may even have better EPDS than Salute first and second hand There have been ALOT of trainwrecks from both of them and the well known syndicated others-so much for EPDS across the board And its a good thing the huddled masses and the unworthy are far away from these genetics O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on January 17, 2019, 06:09:57 PM
Interesting.........
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 17, 2019, 07:57:33 PM
Interesting.........


Indeed. Letís exercise the demons folks. Right here. Right now.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 17, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
i aint that extreme-just research the cattle before u breed. The worst thing Ive seen other than the flat out liars in Shorthorns is how they shoot down and badmouth almost any useful animal  that alot of different people from outside the breed use-Two examples-good or bad that BROUGHT THE BREED TO LIFE INSPITE OF THE MIS DESCRIBED GENETICS OF THE POPULAR CATTLE  WERE DOUBLE STUFF AND PROUD JAZZ-both were used on more breeds than almost anything I can think of-including alot of the Angus -But-I NEEDS THE MONEY-YES FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS JUST SEND $19.95 to to the LONG DISTANCE PHONE LINE TO HEAVEN (managed by UB Shorthorns) AND I WILL DO MY BEST TO CHANGE THESE HARD CALVINGS O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: shortybreeder on January 18, 2019, 02:14:22 AM
I've seen 3 daughters down here in Australia, and they are all pretty handy. I have a video of one and pictures of all 3, PM me and I can email them to you because i'm tired of adjusting a bunch of pictures to fit the size limits. This particular farm used 5 straws and got 3 heifers, so they are what they are. He was used in mature cows and had no calving issues--if there had been problems they wouldn't have survived the birthing process.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 18, 2019, 07:40:28 AM
Obviously the cow is at least half of the equation-the Aussie cattle have been bred for commercial useage for many years-I would have to assume that they are genetically alot easier calving than most of the Shorhorns up here  O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: justintime on January 18, 2019, 02:09:09 PM
Obviously the cow is at least half of the equation-the Aussie cattle have been bred for commercial useage for many years-I would have to assume that they are genetically alot easier calving than most of the Shorhorns up here  O0
[/quote




Well I am hearing the same thing as shortybreeder. I spoke with two more breeders in the last 24 hours that have had Fire Storm calves born in the past two weeks. So far, I have not heard of a single  calf that was assisted at birth. One guy said he now has 5 on the ground and they look really good. He said they are weighing in the low 90s at birth.( From research done in the past, a 90 lb calf in Canada is similar to an 80 lb calf born in Texas from the same genetics ) But that really doesn't mean much to most of you EPD experts. You seem to be convinced he will be a cow killer, yet those with actual experience with calves on the ground are not saying anything like this. I think I know who I am going to believe. I have asked everyone I have talked with, if they plan on using Fire Storm again this year. Everyone has said, based on the calves they have on the ground that they will definitely using him again.... but I guess that doesn't matter.  There will be a bunch more Fire Storm calves born in the next few weeks. So far, I have seen several of them and I have not seen a poor calf yet.
So I am now wondering, that after you all are done bashing Fire Storm, have you got any plans as to who you are going to bash next? The negativity presented by some of the regulars on this site is a bit mind boggling!
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 18, 2019, 06:57:25 PM
1 How many of the breeders that used him are in the US IT IS A GIVEN THE THE COW IS AT LEAST 50% OF THE EQUATION-If anything the "bashing" is not only about him-but trying to recognize a distinct problem in US Shorthorns that needs to be addressed CALVING PROBLEMS-and pronto if the average purebred small breeder is going to sell a bull at all. CE isnt just about wieght-it can be the shape of the calf, nutrition a dominent gene per se  from a huge BW animal coming to fore a from few generations backetc: I MEAN WHO DONT KNOW THAT? That is why bulls like Hot Commodity-the  not clean and  clean Jazz Sons , Jazz himslf, the Angus in the background of the Jungels-Loving bulls, the Waukaru linebred (in some cases) deals the Red Reward Red Demand genetics available to the PEASANTS,have been coming into fashion for the last AT LEAST 10 years. Yea Yea-Im not listing everyone-but my hats off to all-BECAUSE-they honestly recognize a very distinct LIMITATION which has scaired many people away down here in many cases. 2-Nobody is trying to be an EPD expert from what I see on this thread-its about the LACK OF TRUE ACCURACY stemming from calving reports-ITS THERE PLAIN AND SIMPLE,-I have to say-Genomics are going to be a game changer of sorts-even if its in a small way.I said in the other thread-This thread is really about the US Market -US Cattle-and what is going on HERE. No Shorthorn Breeders that I know of down here have a hunky dunkle international fan club and just cant keep thier genetics on the shelf due to the insatiable demand of thier happy customers who do not have a care in the world-Different place different issues CERTAINLY DIFFERENT MODES OF ACCEPTANCE O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: kiblercattle on January 18, 2019, 09:12:08 PM
Not bashing the bull and agrguing that he's a cow killer but you can't argue that genetically his calves will be on the heavier end of the bw spectrum. My dad is running 7 sonny grandsons that are bred similar to firestorm on predominately angus/Hereford commercial cows. There's 800 cows and the rest get angus bulls. The cows are run out on dry grass for 9 months of the year so they are in moderate condition when they calve. Cows are calved turned out on range so they are not pampered or even checked regularly. But when checked their calves are obviously on the larger side( 90-100+ lb not uncommon)on of all the calves born by a good margin not that they are a problem but assuming that the cows were in great condition the calves should theoretically be larger. This is being observed over a course of 5 calf crops (750-850 calves) so it's not gathered from some guy that has 10 calves a year out of a bull that they picked out cows with traits to offset the bulls negative qualities or vice versa. IMO he's a bull that for most commercial guys that there is not enough benefit from the high bw potential to be relevant and not picking on him but there are lots of shorthorn bulls that fit this category.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 19, 2019, 07:55:50 PM
I agree and appreciate your feedback-There are also alot of good usefull bulls coming available that will be in some cases easier calving than alot of the others including the Angus If it ever gets down to it-Im glad to help you find some-An operation like yours is real world and I"d love to see what the cattle-calves look like-and there are Shorthorns out there that will work-and they ARE NOT THE FRAIL UNATTRACTIVE HARD DOING LOOKING KIND There is alot to be said for rotating the British Breeds-especially if you like to eat really good beef O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: matt999 on September 11, 2019, 07:18:11 PM
Hereís a bunch of firestorm progeny selling on September 29 as well as a picture of his dam at 8 years old.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: aj on September 11, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
I'm sure I will be crucified for asking but where does this bull shake out on the double muscle deal?
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: Medium Rare on September 11, 2019, 08:44:20 PM
I'm sure I will be crucified for asking but where does this bull shake out on the double muscle deal?

Tested free of all three.

Many of the Canadian breeders should be commended for their level of testing. Their list of results dwarfs the US list.
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 12, 2019, 08:22:03 PM
Really good show cattle from one like him-HOWEVER-So how do the BWS shake out over time-There are just too many proven hard calvers up close in his pedigree to make him a .01-BW-like certain animals in the US with Salute-on a Solution female-which is an absolute JOKE.  This DOES NOT eliminate him from being a high quality deal if used carefully-I dont believe one shot of Proud Jazz-Hot Commodity etc will completely turn around the potential calving problems with these genetics in one generation any more than I can pick up the Empire State Building. However-JMO-second or third gen would be the deal-If there were 3 unrelated CE-high performing bulls to stack next-That would make show cattle. I want both the "new" dual purpose-cattle that will show that are also legitimately functional-Its an age old task and very hard to come up with O0
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: ty378 on September 15, 2019, 11:34:29 AM
I only have a handful of shorthorns and I used the bull only had one calf out of him this year but he was 130 pounds out of a mature AOD cow and he needed to be pulled, we sold him last week at the stockyards and he brought in a whopping 445 dollars after commission. I bred some more to him this year unfortunately it's to late to estrumate them. I feel they are going to be cattle that have a high input cost
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: Duncraggan on September 15, 2019, 12:18:57 PM
I agree with Mark on this one!

Hill Haven Bold 4X was a sire I would have used in a flash, Firestorm with his sire, maybe a bit reluctant! JMO
Title: Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
Post by: mark tenenbaum on September 16, 2019, 11:28:05 AM
Not bashing the bull and agrguing that he's a cow killer but  IMO he's a bull that for most commercial guys that there is not enough benefit from the high bw potential to be relevant and not picking on him but there are lots of shorthorn bulls that fit this category.
///// From the very polite manner that you state things and the numbers of cattle you run I am assuming you are up in Canada-There are a couple REALLY GOOD Shorthorn bulls with low 0 or close BW EPDS that have used almost exclusively on commercial cattle down here-Although there have been a few registered Shorts out of them too-Proven on hiefers-and POO POOEd by anyone Ive tried to introduce them to because they dont have 10 calves registered with the "accurate LOL" Epds". What these people fail to realize is that there are also $3-8000 show calves out of the SAME bulls-from-Shorthorns, Charolais XS, Angus, herefords,and Xs Simms etc. The commercial guys in iowa have used them both and like the breeders of rhe show calves that basically are RAISED COMMERCIAL-could give a RATS A$%^*(__S about the Shorthorn Assoc and the BS politics.  Wish you were down here so I could get you a little semen O0