How do you decide to make him a steer or leave him a bull?

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Tallcool1

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This is something that I have often wondered about.  When you look at these promotional bulls at Denver, about half of them look like they would have been phenomenal steers.  I realize that some of the power that they have is due to hormones that their steer peers didn't have.

When I have been going through pastures looking for show steers, the owner will often times have a few that he left as bulls.  They will catch my eye right away, and I will usually ask what that one is!  Well, from this distance you can't tell...but I left him a bull.

So what are the characteristics that you guys look for while determining what to do with a little bull calf?

 

Okotoks

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Tallcool1 said:
This is something that I have often wondered about.  When you look at these promotional bulls at Denver, about half of them look like they would have been phenomenal steers.  I realize that some of the power that they have is due to hormones that their steer peers didn't have.

When I have been going through pastures looking for show steers, the owner will often times have a few that he left as bulls.  They will catch my eye right away, and I will usually ask what that one is!  Well, from this distance you can't tell...but I left him a bull.

So what are the characteristics that you guys look for while determining what to do with a little bull calf?
I would think the ones that catch your eye right away are more likely to be a bull prospect. The return marketing semen might outweigh the the calf's value as a steer.
 

RyanChandler

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This is one of the primary reasons I like to buy young bulls as it gives me a better idea when I go to compare the offspring to their sire.  If I don't think a young bullcalf is an equivalent or superior to his sire then I band them. Almost always a Bull's sons will be inferior (as the sire was likely an outlier of his own contemporary group) but when you get a good one you know it-
 

CAB

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Also I think a lot of the times here the mating obviously goes into the decision. If the mating included a "club Calf" bull, the calf is almost for sure going to see the knife very early like day 1. If the mating is one made hoping for a heifer, we may leave the seeds in for some time to see if the calf has bull potential and we do make some matings hoping for calving ease bulls that we know will work for someone are their 1st calf heifers. Right now we have 7 bull calves left out of a calf crop of about 60 head.
 

savaged

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If you have a promotion quality bull calf (potentially) it will be rather evident, especially in the cross bred clubby arena.

I was lucky enough to have this calf this spring.  Pictured at five weeks and at three months.  He stayed a bull :)

 

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Tallcool1

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savaged said:
If you have a promotion quality bull calf (potentially) it will be rather evident, especially in the cross bred clubby arena.

I was lucky enough to have this calf this spring.  Pictured at five weeks and at three months.  He stayed a bull :)

This calf is exactly the type I had in mind when I asked the question.  By the way, I love the look of that calf!

He looks like one of those $40,000 steers that we see occasionally, or maybe one of the $80,000 that we hear about.

What is he worth as a bull?

 

librarian

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What if you have a bull calf that seems better than his sire in the desired traits of the sire, from a sire daughter mating, but the daughter (dam of the calf)  is cross bred?  Would you call that heterosis or a lucky recombination of the sire's genes?  Should the son breed more predictably than the sire or less?
 

Barry Farms

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Tallcool1 said:
savaged said:
If you have a promotion quality bull calf (potentially) it will be rather evident, especially in the cross bred clubby arena.

I was lucky enough to have this calf this spring.  Pictured at five weeks and at three months.  He stayed a bull :)

This calf is exactly the type I had in mind when I asked the question.  By the way, I love the look of that calf!

He looks like one of those $40,000 steers that we see occasionally, or maybe one of the $80,000 that we hear about.

What is he worth as a bull?

That is a question of do you want money now or more profit later from semen sales and selling the calves of the 'superior' bull.

He is one heck of a calf by the way  (thumbsup)  (clapping)  <cowboy>  <rock>  <party>  O0  8)  :)  ;D
 

RyanChandler

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librarian said:
What if you have a bull calf that seems better than his sire in the desired traits of the sire, from a sire daughter mating, but the daughter (dam of the calf)  is cross bred?  Would you call that heterosis or a lucky recombination of the sire's genes?  Should the son breed more predictably than the sire or less?

A + B = C

C + nothing = C

 

librarian

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mark tenenbaum said:
Ive found (through looking at calves-no science involved)that good horned bulls tend to throw more of thier desired qualities-such as bone,thickness etc,than polled bulls. O0
Would you venture a guess as to why?

XBAR, please help me with the units on your algebra. 
A + B = C
C + nothing = C
If I was good at math I would understand inbreeding coefficients.
My math says a sire gives 50% of his genes to his offspring.  If it's a sire daughter mating, then she gives 25% of her sires genes to her offspring.  So the calf would transmit half of that, or 37.5%.  But the question is about predictability, which I do not understand at all.  Really, I am asking for help understanding this.  And are those numbers real or potential?
 

RyanChandler

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It's imperative to remember that it's not so much the theoretical percentage of each breed transmitted in crossbred cattle as it is the random and unpredictable level of expression associated with each of those percentages.
 

librarian

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I follow that, but it is the individual I am concerned with, not the breed.  We are always crossing individuals with varying degrees of relatedness.  Different breeds are just at opposite ends of a bell curve for relatedness.
I can't frame the question very well. 
 

OH Breeder

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librarian said:
I follow that, but it is the individual I am concerned with, not the breed.  We are always crossing individuals with varying degrees of relatedness.  Different breeds are just at opposite ends of a bell curve for relatedness.
I can't frame the question very well.

I am FAR from the brightest bulb in the pack and I do not want to derail the thread, but .....
Monopoly seems to be more consistent than his father. Lots of calves that I have seen appear to be more predictable in type in kind for show calves. Is it because he had a mother that was more stabilized or pure?

We keep bulls based on performance. I think a good bull comes from a good cow. I also tend to lean toward masculine bulls verses androgenous bull calf. I guess it depends on what you are shooting for.
 
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