how to tell if bull is a calving ease bull

We have an oppurtunity to look at some February Black Angus bull calves next week. We are looking for a bull that we can use on cows and heifers.  A middle of the road bull so to speak. Last time we bought one all the info was available to us, EPD's, ultrasound, the whole nine yards including the calving ease on the bull. Does anyone have any pointers when it comes to walking into a pen of bull calves and by looking at the structure of the bull if it will be a calving ease bull? I know his own birht weight is important, the dam and sire's history is important but is there anything else we should look for? We are going to meet someone who we have never talked to so I would like to have as much info as possible before we go. Or do y'all think its a really bad idea to buy a bull calf that just got off the cow, and we should wait? The reason that we are intersested in getting one now is that this guy is selling at a good price and we don't know if we can afford to pay the price of a good bull come spring. Any help would be appreciated

shape of animal... big headed, big boned, super stout, big shouldered bulls, narrow pelvic, are not, and never will be calving ease.

Mr. Negitivity- with a goal of Negitive KARMA said:

shape of animal... big headed, big boned, super stout, big shouldered bulls, narrow pelvic, are not, and never will be calving ease.

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Maybe your new goal is an attempt at humour and I am too slow to get it ??? If it is actually your goal I just gave you positive Karma because that goal is just sad.

I would really be looking for a clean fronted bull with well laid in shoulders on top of all the BW and CE info.

As far as #'s, I wouldn't consider anything less than a +7  CED  for heifers no matter what the birthweight, positive scrotal epd.  The more information you have before you get there the better, that way you can study the genetics and epd.s and get an idea of those that would fit your criteria.  Get several animals wrote down you like on paper, and then go pick out the one you think looks the best.  Short wide headed animals are less desirable than longer headed ones (for calving ease), take a good look at the front end like the others said!  Ask if they have any older full sibs you can look at.  Good luck!

Jody,  I will start calling you man of many names!

nate53 said:

Jody,  I will start calling you man of many names!

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people on here are just so inspiring to me, and helpful in my search for a unique- fitting username...  I'm constantely searching for that one, perfect fit... but haven't found it yet...

You know, like the good old cow that's almost had the great one, just those peice, or two that don't quite click... you keep  breeding her to a different bull each year hoping that's the magical cross...

You see, I just can't quite find it...  ;D

nate53 said:

As far as #'s, I wouldn't consider anything less than a +7  CED  for heifers no matter what the birthweight, positive scrotal epd.   The more information you have before you get there the better, that way you can study the genetics and epd.s and get an idea of those that would fit your criteria.  Get several animals wrote down you like on paper, and then go pick out the one you think looks the best.  Short wide headed animals are less desirable than longer headed ones (for calving ease), take a good look at the front end like the others said!  Ask if they have any older full sibs you can look at.   Good luck!

Jody,  I will start calling you man of many names!

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I have a question for you....honest question if you can help me understand this...
the short broad headed? JPJ and some of his descendants tend to follow a traditional shorthorn head like Leader 21st.small heads rounded eyes broader at the forehead smaller ears,etc.  Some of the genetics with Trump in them tend to be elongated and what we call "mule" like. Can you explain your heads to me?

You said the last time you bought a bull you had alot of information available...do you have any information available on these or are you just gonna rely on conformation to pick one out?

OH Breeder said:

nate53 said:

As far as #'s, I wouldn't consider anything less than a +7  CED  for heifers no matter what the birthweight, positive scrotal epd.   The more information you have before you get there the better, that way you can study the genetics and epd.s and get an idea of those that would fit your criteria.  Get several animals wrote down you like on paper, and then go pick out the one you think looks the best.  Short wide headed animals are less desirable than longer headed ones (for calving ease), take a good look at the front end like the others said!  Ask if they have any older full sibs you can look at.   Good luck!

Jody,  I will start calling you man of many names!

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I have a question for you....honest question if you can help me understand this...
the short broad headed? JPJ and some of his descendants tend to follow a traditional shorthorn head like Leader 21st.small heads rounded eyes broader at the forehead smaller ears,etc.  Some of the genetics with Trump in them tend to be elongated and what we call "mule" like. Can you explain your heads to me?

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width b/w the eyes tends to lay the base for the skeletal width from that point backwards. 

just becuase trump heads are long and skinny, doesn't mean, they're narrow and small as compared to the rest of the body.. 
on the opposite, just becuase jpj heads are wider and thicker-- doesn't mean their bigger and stouter.

The ad we responded to said that there was EPD's available, but I'm assuming that this info would be from the sires not from the bull calves themselves. I didn't get a whole lot out of the guy on the phone, so I'm not really sure what I'm heading into here. But even with dam and sire information, I think we will still end up taking a lot from the bull calf's conformation to make a decision.  The smooth front end makes alot of sense, and a good look at his full sibs if there are any makes sense too.  Is there anything else that would give us a clue as to what we're getting into?

lightnin4 said:

You said the last time you bought a bull you had alot of information available...do you have any information available on these or are you just gonna rely on conformation to pick one out?

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OH Breeder said:

nate53 said:

As far as #'s, I wouldn't consider anything less than a +7  CED  for heifers no matter what the birthweight, positive scrotal epd.   The more information you have before you get there the better, that way you can study the genetics and epd.s and get an idea of those that would fit your criteria.  Get several animals wrote down you like on paper, and then go pick out the one you think looks the best.  Short wide headed animals are less desirable than longer headed ones (for calving ease), take a good look at the front end like the others said!  Ask if they have any older full sibs you can look at.   Good luck!

Jody,  I will start calling you man of many names!

Click to expand...

I have a question for you....honest question if you can help me understand this...
the short broad headed? JPJ and some of his descendants tend to follow a traditional shorthorn head like Leader 21st.small heads rounded eyes broader at the forehead smaller ears,etc.  Some of the genetics with Trump in them tend to be elongated and what we call "mule" like. Can you explain your heads to me?

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OH Breeder -  I have always been taught that the shorter and wider heads are more problematic for calving (in general), basically the head is the first thing that comes out after the feet so a longer head (more triangular would come out easier and really be a gradual size increase up to the front shoulders coming out,  than lets say a more square head).  It's just something I was always told to look at and it is logical, I wouldn't consider it as important as the shoulders, b.w., or CED, but it's worth looking at.  Not all longer headed animals are easy calving, and not all shorter - wide headed animal are hard calving (just a generalization). 

As far as what shape JPJ and Leader 21st heads are I wouldn't know (never seen a pic of them facing the camera and I'm no shorthorn expert. 
 
THis is off the ASA website.
Use BW EPD in conjunction with Calving Ease Direct (CE). Phenotypic traits like length of body, shoulder design, head shape, circumference of bone, and even frame score play a significant role in determining birth weight and calving ease.

nate is correct

My first reply was too negative.

Smooth with a well laid back shoulder ask to see the dams and her numbers as well Ask for pelvic as well you want the daughters able to calve easy

Calving ease in Angus bulls usually means EPD and performance as:

Actual birth weight < 85 lbs

BW EPD < 2.5

CED EPD 7 or greater

I also like to see the following maternal numbers:

CEM EPD that is 7 or greater and the cow should ratio < 100 for birth weight.

Are there any hard calving bulls in the pedigree?  I lost a good heifer this year to a 110 lb. calf even though both she and the sire were well within the specs I have quoted.  My best guess is this was due to both having the same grand sire with a BW EPD > 5.  Her half sister bred the same way calved unassisted.

Birth weight birth weight birth weight.  Throw the low accuracy epds out the window and check the actual birthweights 2 and 3 generations back.  Generations of low 70lb bws don't throw hundred lbers.  I've pulled dozens of 90-95lb calves.  I've never pulled one <70.

In my experience, cattle that have the elongated muley head have several common characteristics. They tend to be a hard doing, flat sided, large bw, hard calving, high maintenance, doll house type.

You usually cant get all that information from someone that is selling bulls intended for a commercial operation, which I'm guessing this is.  With Angus, you are unlikely to mess up too badly on CE, if they can at least tell you the sire.  From there go off frame size.

There are many qualities that help indicate calving ease. Birth weight and calving ease of the bull himself is a good place to start. Body shape is also a consideration. Head shape should be considered. I like bulls that have moderate width between the eyes, that is I tend to avoid bulls with very wide eye set, and also bulls that have very narrow heads. The Narrow headed bulls is not so much about calving ease but it tends to suggest harder doing animals. I am a big believer in the slope to the shoulder. I try to look to a bull with shoulders that are properly set into the body. Some of this is hard to put into words and it is almost a " learned" appearance that one gets over time.

I will try to take a picture of a bull I have here that I expect to be a very easy calving sire. Not only does he have a good BW himself ( 75 lbs) but he has the proper head and shoulder shapes I prefer in calving ease sires. I will find out for sure if I am right next spring as I bred 32 heifers to him this year. As a side note, this bull serviced this many heifers as a yearling bull and came in from pasture in good enough shape that he will be shown this fall. This is another trait I really like in a bull. My vet says that there is a high open rate in this area especially on heifers and she says many herds have had a 30% open rate. I'm not sure why. Of our 32 heifers, all were safe in calf and it appears that almost all were bred in a 3 week period.

Chandler said:

Birth weight birth weight birth weight.  Throw the low accuracy epds out the window and check the actual birthweights 2 and 3 generations back.  Generations of low 70lb bws don't throw hundred lbers.   I've pulled dozens of 90-95lb calves.  I've never pulled one <70.

In my experience, cattle that have the elongated muley head have several common characteristics. They tend to be a hard doing, flat sided, large bw, hard calving, high maintenance, doll house type.

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Ohhhh Chandler, so we should throw out all epds on younger or low accuracy animals?  Maybe you should call the all the different associations and tell them to forget the epd thing until the specefic animal has at least 5,000 progeny under their belt (in each specific category)- also they should be used on animals from Texas, Missouri, Michigan, Montana, California and Florida just to assure that they produce consistencey on a variety of animals in a variety of enviroments.  Actual birthweights, fluctuate a fair amount over the course of an animals life, from year to year, from enviroment to enviroment on same animal.  Vanridge also did say he wanted a middle of the road animal (for cows and heifers).  

Vanridge- I think visiting the program is probably the best idea.

I just visited a large nonpapered Angus deal "Housh Angus" in Haysprings, Ne. My favorite sire group was Rocking Horse Taylor Made. 

Chandler - on the shorthorn side of this deal I would agree with you about watching act BW. I met yet another shorthorn breeder that used a grandson of a HIgh bw epd bull. He averaged 119 lbs on over 20 calves.