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Author Topic: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway  (Read 9853 times)

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2019, 05:46:25 PM »
I dont think the pictures are doctered-JIT usually has them pretty much minimally fitted: what you see is what they are -But The Bws on his sire Hot Shot can be up there-with a number of heifer calves well over 100. That being said I would put part of it on his dams sire-the problem there-is accuracy (LOL)-lotta registrations but a small number of reported BWS - but so far the reported BWS  on him are not anywhere near the BWS of his antecedents I would think that there would have been more calves-unless his first owner and family  for obvious reasons were not able to do the reporting O0
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 06:11:23 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline knabe

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 10:39:34 PM »
I hate judging cattle by pictures. I guess you can doctor pictures. I try not to look at pictures. I hate pictures.


i see a picture to the left of your posts.  remove it. i hate it. picture looks doctored.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:39:57 PM by knabe »

Offline justintime

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2019, 10:48:39 AM »
His sire is a cow killer. His dams sire is a cow killer.  He has as much natural muscle as any bull youve ever had.  Yet, at 4yrs old, is wider than any bull youve ever  had. (Including the 3000lbers) Yet hes being presented as a heifer bull option.  Truly remarkable. 


Just as a reference you know so I can exclude the possibility of my dealings with you being the remote exception, can you refetence even one Shorthorn breeder in all of the United States who has made a repeat bull purchase from you? 

The reality is that if even a 1/100th of your claims held any validity, there would be semen studs and breeders lined up at your doors  but theres not.  Lots of stories from buyers in far off lands but few papers being transferred (check the database) and even fewer notables using your bulls.   In fact,  I cant think of one single breeder in all of North America using any of your genetics.    Is there not anyone else that finds that wildly ironic considering how noteworthy he presents them as being?  Serious question. 

Funny background about how you re acquired this bull too.   Interesting how theres always a convoluted dynamic of sorts that accompanies every latest and greatest bull you decide to champion.

So back to the question can you reference even one?  Id like to speak with them and get a first hand account.  Surely as a businessman you have a book of reference?


Ryan... you can make all the assumptions you want. I will let my record stand anyday besides yours. I feel fortunate to have spent my entire lifetime in this business, and I have never worked for anyone but myself My cows have provided me with my income. I also feel fortunate that over 90% of my bulls sell to commercial customers and I have sold over 320 in the past 10 years. I sold completely out of bulls for several years and last year, I could have sold at least a dozen more. My bulls averaged over $5200 last year ( Canadian $) and 22% sold to repeat buyers. I expect your record is much better but I won't ask. My best bull customer has purchased 22 bulls in the past decade and he told me recently that he is going to need two more this spring. He runs 300 cowds and calves on grass.  How many have you sold Ryan? And how many purebred breeders are using your genetics?  I keep getting emails and texts from Americans apologizing to me for your comments. I always reply to these people that they don't have to apologize to me for anything you say, as I think most people consider the source.
I knew when I posted a picture of Cruiser on here, that I would receive abuse from you in particular as well as a few others. I thought that he was a bull that should be seen by others. I am a bit overwhelmed by the number of people who has asked about semen from him. I know that you would never buy semen from him, and quite frankly, if I ever collect Cruiser, I hope you never buy any. As for repeat buyers in the US, I try to concentrate on selling to Canadians but if Americans wish to buy, I will try to work with them to get their purchases delivered. I have several US customers, and I have made trips to Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma and Iowa numerous times with cattle to repeat customers. I have sold cattle to 21 states and there are several repeat buyers. I could go on and on but I won't bother.
Quite honestly, if I had listened to your advice over the years, my breeding program would be far lesser than it presently is. What you say to me and about me, does not concern me. The only thing that does bother me, is the thought that someone out there may actually believe the crap you spread. Enough said!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:51:48 AM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline oakview

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2019, 10:56:38 AM »
You might talk to Bob Miller.  Millvale Farms has been in business a long, long, time.  He used (may still be using) a bull called HC Tracer, I believe.  Bob used him for years, swears he's an easy calver.  Check out the past sale catalogs of the Minnesota State Shorthorn Sale.  There's been a picture of Tracer, or whatever his name is, numerous times.  If you know Bob Miller, he'll tell you what he thinks and won't sugar coat it.  He lives in North Dakota, which to the best of my knowledge is in North America.  The cattle there are raised in as everyday conditions you can get.  Charlie Obrecht in Iowa had pretty good luck with an HC bull.  I think the one he bought was reserve champion at our state fair a few years back, so I guess they can work as show animals as well as in the "real world."  The past few years, they have concentrated on the show end of the spectrum for the grandkids, but their HC bull was pretty good.  From what I've been told, most of the HC bulls sold go to commercial cattlemen.  That could be why there aren't thousands of their offspring recorded.  There have been several HC bulls offered that I would have liked to use.  I'm sorry yours didn't work out.

Offline oakview

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2019, 11:06:47 AM »
Maybe I should have checked the ASA website first, but so far my memory has been pretty good.  In case you're interested, HC Tracer has a - 5.0 BEPD with over 200 calves recorded sired by him.  He is still shown as active at over 11 years of age, though only 1 2018 calf was registered by him.  Lots of them over the years prior to that.  Tracer has pretty good numbers across the board.  I don't know of very many bulls with that kind of BEPD that approach 200 recorded offspring.  If you don't believe me, call Bob or look it up yourself. 

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2019, 11:11:14 AM »
So no references? Imagine that.  You can blow smoke up everyones ass and deflect and write paragraphs about irrelevancies but you wont bother to go on and on to answer a direct question.  Thats as telling as it gets folks.

Those that heed my warnings of what you and your cattle are all about will all be better off.   Its essentially an obligation of those who have first hand experience to speak up and warn the unsuspecting who might be inclined to fall prey to your rainbows and butterflies bs. 

For those who may not be familiar with your reruns.  Heres a classic http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/ 

Would Id be safe at this point to call him a total bust?  The bull that was to save the world and merge the lines not having even one notable offspring.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2019, 11:31:57 AM »
Maybe I should have checked the ASA website first, but so far my memory has been pretty good.  In case you're interested, HC Tracer has a - 5.0 BEPD with over 200 calves recorded sired by him.  He is still shown as active at over 11 years of age, though only 1 2018 calf was registered by him.  Lots of them over the years prior to that.  Tracer has pretty good numbers across the board.  I don't know of very many bulls with that kind of BEPD that approach 200 recorded offspring.  If you don't believe me, call Bob or look it up yourself.

I have no reason not to believe you.  You seem honest from my take on here.   So weve got 1 bull bred over a decade ago.  Ok. Reasonable.  Would 1 in a decade be consistent with the strata of cattle breeders he alone places himself in? 

Theres just a massive disconnect between his claims and what can actually be objectively substantiated.   Conjecture suits most but Im more inclined to dal with those who have first hand dealings. 

Offline justintime

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2019, 12:10:32 PM »
So no references? Imagine that.  You can blow smoke up everyones ass and deflect and write paragraphs about irrelevancies but you wont bother to go on and on to answer a direct question.  Thats as telling as it gets folks.

Those that heed my warnings of what you and your cattle are all about will all be better off.   Its essentially an obligation of those who have first hand experience to speak up and warn the unsuspecting who might be inclined to fall prey to your rainbows and butterflies bs. 

For those who may not be familiar with your reruns.  Heres a classic http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/ 

Would Id be safe at this point to call him a total bust?  The bull that was to save the world and merge the lines not having even one notable offspring.



I chose NOT to make any references in my post and I think that is the only fair thing to do to my customers. I certainly am not going to bring them into this discussion so you can bash them as well. You have to be totally NUTS if you think I am going start giving you a list of names. Probably what I should do, is list the names of people who keep contacting me, and apologizing to me for what you keep saying about me.  I will put my reputation against yours any day of the week, and I don't think I should have to be accountable to someone with about the worst reputation I have ever heard of in my 50+ years of breeding purebred Shorthorns. You don't like me. That is fine with me.  I have lots of other people who seem to think I am an OK person, and I will say that I am NOT a liar. I only state the facts as I have seen them. You bashed a bull that I used for several years and basically said nothing would ever come from him that would amount to anything. I sold him to another breeder at 8 years of age and I found out that he died a couple weeks ago. The people who bought him, just finalized buying all the semen that remains on him. One of the breeders in Ireland that purchased the European rights in him just emailed me and wants some more semen. I can't send any to him, because it is all sold now.
On another recent thread, there was a discussion as to where everyone has gone to on Steerplanet. I stayed out of that thread, but I will only say that a lot of people have left because of the attitudes of some of the regulars on this site, who have never set the world on fire breeding anything in their lives. A few of these people , including xbar, seem to only comment with negative comments. Very seldom will you see a post where they agree with something, and almost never will you see them mention any animal that they have raised that anyone who consider to be good for the beef industry.  We all have the freedom to use whatever bloodlines we want to. None of us have to be bashed and bullied by people like you, who have basically done squat in regards to producing cattle that are being sought out by others.
In the past hour, I have received another 3 texts from well known American cattlemen (not all are Sharthorn breeders) saying some pretty nasty things about you. I wasn't even going to respond to your ridiculous comments in your previous posts and then I ready where you slammed my honesty. That is where I draw the line. I have done everything in my life based on my reputation, and I consider my reputation to be my most valuable asset. Obviously, you don't care about your reputation, as you can just sit in front of your computer and make up any comments you dream up. Ryan, we live over 1200 miles apart. There is room for us both to raise whatever kind of cattle we want to. I simply cannot imagine what you are trying to prove here. You have damaged your own reputation beyond anything I have ever saw before. I will make you one promise. If you post pictures of some of the cattle you have raised that you think are the right kind, and I do not like the looks of them, I will not comment what I think on a public page such as this. If I like your pictures, I will definitely comment that I like them/ That is one of the big differences between us.
I could really care less, if I ever sell bulls to purebred producers. I have said this in the past, and I think  the same today, that, for me,  there really is no feeling quite as good as seeing cattlemen, who raise their families entirely from the calves they produce, bidding and buying bulls in your sale. It Is even better, when they return and buy some more. Ryan... you are a grown man... please grow up! I really haven't decided if I feel pity for you... or sorry for you... or both!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:49:55 PM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2019, 12:29:00 PM »
The "classic" thread from 9 years ago awt to be in Faros next blog when it comes to cattle size and production-Hes more or less the self appointed conservatoire of small cows on grass-I sent him an email showing the Blue Greys and Highland cross cattle in Scotland -Northen England and Ireland-no response yet-they are the originals from as far back as the late 18th century-probably the last of the pure cattle over there,So whos thinking OUTSIDE THE BOX NOW? LOL O0

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2019, 01:42:38 PM »
Quit promoting cow killers as viable options to new unsuspecting people and you wont hear from me.   Keep up your swindling bullshit and Ill make a point to provide context every time.  Your livelihood is contingent on taking advantage of good people who get suckered into your rosey stories, buy a bull, have disasterous experiences, and never go back.   The saddest part being that, for fear of reprisal, these people just keep their head down and go on their mundane way not looking to ruffle any feathers.  Not me.  F- that.  I have zero concern about what your Barney friends think of my reputation nor do I dont need anybody elses money.  I actually have a secure occupation where I dont have to exaggerate and carry on for days about the labor you see in the world I live in all people care about is showing them the baby.  Tangible products and results as opposed to your unsubstantiated salesman ramblings about how great you are.    Your only saving grace is that you inherited your existence and happen to be in an industry with little to no objective checks and balances and even less recourse for lying out your ass.   So remember, next time you put on your cowboy hat, get that leprechaun accent going as thick as you can get it and start that deceptive salesman talk you so frequently resort to, look for me,,, because Ill be there.  Every.  single.  time. Warning any and all wholl listen.

Offline justintime

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2019, 03:44:52 PM »
More assumptions on your part Ryan. If you had any idea of what my family and I have been through, you may think before you say some of the things you said here. Actually I have had to pay for my farm twice, and thanks to my cows I do not owe 1 red cent to anyone now, except for a small balance on one credit card. I would never promote a bull that was a cow killer. Believe me, I would rather ship the bull and toss any semen before I did this. I invested a fair bit of money in two different bulls in the past few years that I shipped after seeing their calves. I will also remind you, that if we ever have a chance of regaining market share in bull use by Shorthorns, we can't just produce bulls as good as any other breed, but we have to produce bulls better than the breeds we are trying to gain the market share from. In a previous comment, I mentioned my best bull buyer. The first year I sold bulls to him, I also had a herd of 100 purebred Charolais cows. He came here to look at Charolais bulls. He bought 3 Charolais bulls and 2 Shorthorn bulls that day. Two years later, he started only buying Shorthorn bulls and he now also uses some Angus and Simmental bulls to keep some hybrid vigor in his herd, but he would be the first to tell you, that his Shorthorn sired calves are born as easily as either the Angus and Simmental sired calves. Another bull customer, who runs over 800 cows turned a Shorthorn bull out with a Polled Hereford bull with a set of yearling heifers. I kinda held my breath, because I did not consider the Shorthorn bull he bought from me, as being a good choice for heifers. He told me the next spring, that he wished the Shorthorn bull had bred all the heifers as he had far more calving problems from the Polled Hereford bull.
You can spread all the hate you want against me. As I said, I only took the time to respond because you are making comments on my integrity and that is where I draw the line. I have had a couple people send messages telling me to get a lawyer and sue you for what you have said, but I am too old to get that concerned about a bottom feeder like you.
Like I have said numerous times now, I would not hesitate to ship a  so called cow killer. I find it interesting that you have now called 3 different bulls I have commented on, as being cow killers, and I have yet to have a single calf from any of them require assistance except for a malpresentation. Two years ago, I did not touch a single calf at birth, which was the first time ever. Last year I only assisted two at calving. Both we cows I was keeping for another person but my own cows all were unassisted. I have said enough. I am quite sure I won't shut you up!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 03:48:13 PM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline doc-sun

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2019, 03:59:42 PM »
you can't shut up an XPERT whether they know anything or not.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2019, 04:16:38 PM »
you can't shut up an XPERT whether they know anything or not.

Yea god forbid anybody get in the way of yalls shamless plugs.  Salesman: the wretched of the earth.

Offline justintime

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2019, 04:46:04 PM »
I took a few pics of some Cruiser calves this afternoon.

The first one ( red and white markings) was the lightest bull calf we had at 75 lbs. He was born unassisted from a 2 year old heifer on February 24/18. The dam is a daughter of Waukaru Orion 2047 from the Picture Perfect cow family. He was weaned on October 25th and had a weaning weight of 504 lbs. No creep was fed to any of these calves.

The white bull was the heaviest Cruiser bull calf born in 2018. He was born March 13/18 and had a BW of 90 lbs. He weaned October 25/18 and weighed 632 lbs ( no creep) His dam is a two year old daughter of HC Bedrock 73B who is a low BW sire as well. There was 128 lbs difference between the lightest BW and the heaviest BW at weaning, with no difference in calving ease.

The red heifer was born March 3/18. She was the heaviest Cruiser heifer at 92 lbs and was born from a mature cow. She is a First Kiss cow from Waukaru. She weighed 646 lbs on October 25th ( no creep).

All the Cruiser calves have been unassisted at birth so far, with no visible differences in calving ease. The weaning weights were very consistent with the calves BWs, that is the lighter BW calves were also the lightest at weaning. I am weighing all the calves next week and it will be interesting to see if this pattern has continued after weaning.

This kind obviously won't work for xbar, but I think they will work for what I am trying to do. Hopefully they will also work for my customers. 

I have mentioned this here on SP before, but for the past 12 years now, I have weighed all my bulls every 28 days from weaning to our sale date in March. It has been interesting to see some trends. There has been many sires represented in these bulls. Counting the bulls in the pen this year, I have records on 404 bulls. The only bulls that go into the pen are those who were born unassisted  or have needed assistance because of a malpresentation such as a foot back, a head back or a backwards calf etc. If I help a calf, it does not get into the bull pen unless I feel it would have been born unassisted if it had been presented correctly. In 12 years of test figures, I have yet to find a single bull that was in the bottom 50% of my birthweights that has indexed over 100 for postweaning gain. NOT... A... Single... One!  I still offer the lower performing bulls as they are good choices for breeding heifers. Cruiser did not make the 100 index ( average in the pen ) the year he was in it. He was my high seller because of his shape and muscle. This is why I have been saying, that we should be talking more about optimum birth weights rather than minimums. The trend I am seeing may be more pronounced in the Shorthorn breed, I don't know. I have talked with lots of people in other breeds and most tell me that they occasionally see a very light BW bull with above average performance. I keep hoping I will eventually find one. I am starting to think that almost everything in life is best in moderation, and that includes birth weights.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 07:13:21 PM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline aj

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2019, 06:15:03 PM »
I know that I have spent 4 months or so trying to photograph a bull. After about 500 shots and three months.....I came up with the perfect photo. Half of the photo's sucked. But I could put two photos......of the same bull up.....taken on the same day......and they don't even look like same bull.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

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