Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: justintime on January 20, 2019, 01:19:11 PM

Title: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 20, 2019, 01:19:11 PM
About a year ago, I posted a picture of HC Cruiser 59C and I received a fair bit of abuse including being called a liar etc etc. A couple regulars on this site accused me of tampering with the photo with photoshop. ( obviously they didn't realize that I don't know the first thing about doing that and I have no desire to learn!) Well, here is a picture of him taken last week  and here are some facts for you to consider before you tell me what is wrong with him or me!( by the way, he is definitely not perfect, but I think he does have some strong traits) I will also say that these are the actual facts.

1) he was born from a 2 year old heifer unassisted with a BW of 82 lbs.
2) he was our high selling bull in 2016 at $16,500 at 9 months of age. After buying him, the new owners told me that they were surprised they bought him so reasonably. They said they had gone to the sale prepared to go a fair bit higher. One of the reasons they were so high on him was that they were tired of hard calving clubby genetics and having replacement heifers from clubby bulls that didn't milk or had poor fertility.  They bought him, to produce show steers and heifers. A week after they purchased him, a leading clubby producer in these parts offered them $16,500 for a 1/2 interest in him. They turned him down as they wanted to have the first calves from him. I was able to get back into him, after the man who purchased him died suddenly, and his wife offered to give me a half interest in him back if I would winter 25 replacement heifers for her. That really was a " no brainer" for me.
3) At 9 months of age, Cruiser had the highest score of all our sale bulls that year in his breeding soundness exam. He tested 93 % at 9 months
4) I bred a few cows and heifers to him from semen I collected before he left here. His first son sold in our sale at $9000 last year, selling to a commercial herd in Manitoba to be used on black cows.
5) I picked Cruiser up on December 12th, 2018 and since arriving here, he has been running on a quarter section with our other herd bull and he has only had a few pounds of bull pellets and hay each day. I know some will say that he is far too fat, but I will assure you that is meat you are looking at in this picture. When I picked him up on December 12th, he had been running with cows on pasture  and wheat stubble before that.
6) So far, we have had 12 first calf heifers calve to Cruiser. 100% have calved unassisted with most BWs between 78-88 lbs. We had one calf at 90 lbs last year, but the heifer calved this calf easily.
7) He is without any doubt the widest based bull we have had on this farm in my lifetime. I have had two pretty good cowboys ( that raise some really good Angus) see him recently. One of them said that Cruiser has as much natural muscle as any bull of any breed he has seen. The other guy said he ranked him as one of the best beef bulls he has seen of any breed.
8) He has great feet and is structurally sound. His feet are perfectly formed and I would be very surprised if he will ever need to have his feet trimmed.
9) since picturing him last week, I have had two inquiries from cattlemen who don't even raise Shorthorns, to buy into him, as well as numerous requests for semen. We have not collected semen other than the few straws of " in herd use " semen I collected when he was a year old.

So far, I am pleased with the calves I have had from him. He downsizes frame and adds thickness, without slowing performance. I have a couple coming two year old daughters to calve in April. They look like the right kind.  We are selling 5 sons in our March 5th Sun Country sale. All were born from first calf heifers and all were unassisted at birth. We are also selling two replacement heifers sired by Cruiser as well. 
I have also attached a picture of his first son we have sold. HC Enforcer 60E. He sold for $9000 at 11 months of age and went to a commercial producer.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on January 20, 2019, 01:43:25 PM
he has urine stains or something on the white part of his hide.


definitely a no go here.  (sarcasm)
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 20, 2019, 01:58:14 PM
he has urine stains or something on the white part of his hide.


definitely a no go here.  (sarcasm)


Thanks knabe!  That gave me a chuckle!  The urine stains come from him laying down by the hay feeder the night before we pictured. He had a big straw pack he could have laid on... but no.... he has to flop down in the S**t.!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: hntwhitetail on January 20, 2019, 03:14:57 PM
Who carries semen in the states?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 20, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
Who carries semen in the states?

The only semen that has been collected was some " in herd use only' semen that I collected for my own use when he was a year old. In order to get US qualified semen, he would have to be quarantined in a licensed AI stud for at at least 45-50 days and then after he passes all tests, semen can be collected. The closest stud qualified to collect US semen is 600 miles from here, so if I get a chance before breeding season, to get him out there, I will. If not, it will be next winter before we can get some.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 20, 2019, 03:46:28 PM
he has urine stains or something on the white part of his hide.


definitely a no go here.  (sarcasm)


Thanks knabe!  That gave me a chuckle!  The urine stains come from him laying down by the hay feeder the night before we pictured. He had a big straw pack he could have laid on... but no.... he has to flop down in the S**t.!

knabe... here is his other side. Maybe you can use this side?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on January 20, 2019, 04:23:55 PM
Who carries semen in the states?


the navy?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on January 20, 2019, 04:24:41 PM
knabe... here is his other side. Maybe you can use this side?


spoon
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Duncraggan on January 21, 2019, 12:46:20 PM
Bull is nice and thick JIT!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: oakview on January 21, 2019, 01:00:13 PM
What is there not to like about that bull?  He may be stained, but he's cleaner than any of my bulls right now!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Holm25 on January 22, 2019, 09:50:44 PM
Iíd be interested in seeing pics of some of his 2yo daughters.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Redwine Cattle on January 23, 2019, 01:42:15 PM
Interesting pedigree on that bull JIT, I like him. Wouldn't hesitate to use him on some of my larger framed cows at whatever point you get some semen cleared for the US.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: hevmando on January 24, 2019, 09:52:36 AM
Message I see loud and clear is there is US semen interest on this bull.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 24, 2019, 04:10:23 PM
His sire is a cow killer. His damís sire is a cow killer.  He ďhas as much natural muscle as any bull youve ever had.Ē  Yet, at 4yrs old, is wider than any bull youíve ever  had. (Including the 3000lbers)ó Yet heís being presented as a heifer bull option.  Truly remarkable. 


Just as a reference you know so I can exclude the possibility of my dealings with you being the remote exception, can you refetence even one Shorthorn breeder in all of the United States who has made a repeat bull purchase from you? 

The reality is that if even a 1/100th of your claims held any validity, there would be semen studs and breeders lined up at your doorsó  but thereís not.  Lots of stories from buyers in far off landsó but few papers being transferred (check the database) and even fewer notables using your bulls.   In fact,  I canít think of one single breeder in all of North America using any of your genetics.    Is there not anyone else that finds that wildly ironic considering how noteworthy he presents them as being?  Serious question. 

Funny background about how you re acquired this bull too.   Interesting how thereís always a convoluted dynamic of sorts that accompanies every latest and greatest bull you decide to champion.

So back to the question can you reference even one?  Iíd like to speak with them and get a first hand account.  Surely as a businessman you have a book of reference?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on January 24, 2019, 04:39:32 PM
I hate judging cattle by pictures. I guess you can doctor pictures. I try not to look at pictures. I hate pictures.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 24, 2019, 05:46:25 PM
I dont think the pictures are doctered-JIT usually has them pretty much minimally fitted: what you see is what they are -But The Bws on his sire Hot Shot can be up there-with a number of heifer calves well over 100. That being said I would put part of it on his dams sire-the problem there-is accuracy (LOL)-lotta registrations but a small number of reported BWS - but so far the reported BWS  on him are not anywhere near the BWS of his antecedents I would think that there would have been more calves-unless his first owner and family  for obvious reasons were not able to do the reporting O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on January 24, 2019, 10:39:34 PM
I hate judging cattle by pictures. I guess you can doctor pictures. I try not to look at pictures. I hate pictures.


i see a picture to the left of your posts.  remove it. i hate it. picture looks doctored.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 10:48:39 AM
His sire is a cow killer. His damís sire is a cow killer.  He ďhas as much natural muscle as any bull youve ever had.Ē  Yet, at 4yrs old, is wider than any bull youíve ever  had. (Including the 3000lbers)ó Yet heís being presented as a heifer bull option.  Truly remarkable. 


Just as a reference you know so I can exclude the possibility of my dealings with you being the remote exception, can you refetence even one Shorthorn breeder in all of the United States who has made a repeat bull purchase from you? 

The reality is that if even a 1/100th of your claims held any validity, there would be semen studs and breeders lined up at your doorsó  but thereís not.  Lots of stories from buyers in far off landsó but few papers being transferred (check the database) and even fewer notables using your bulls.   In fact,  I canít think of one single breeder in all of North America using any of your genetics.    Is there not anyone else that finds that wildly ironic considering how noteworthy he presents them as being?  Serious question. 

Funny background about how you re acquired this bull too.   Interesting how thereís always a convoluted dynamic of sorts that accompanies every latest and greatest bull you decide to champion.

So back to the question can you reference even one?  Iíd like to speak with them and get a first hand account.  Surely as a businessman you have a book of reference?


Ryan... you can make all the assumptions you want. I will let my record stand anyday besides yours. I feel fortunate to have spent my entire lifetime in this business, and I have never worked for anyone but myself My cows have provided me with my income. I also feel fortunate that over 90% of my bulls sell to commercial customers and I have sold over 320 in the past 10 years. I sold completely out of bulls for several years and last year, I could have sold at least a dozen more. My bulls averaged over $5200 last year ( Canadian $) and 22% sold to repeat buyers. I expect your record is much better but I won't ask. My best bull customer has purchased 22 bulls in the past decade and he told me recently that he is going to need two more this spring. He runs 300 cowds and calves on grass.  How many have you sold Ryan? And how many purebred breeders are using your genetics?  I keep getting emails and texts from Americans apologizing to me for your comments. I always reply to these people that they don't have to apologize to me for anything you say, as I think most people consider the source.
I knew when I posted a picture of Cruiser on here, that I would receive abuse from you in particular as well as a few others. I thought that he was a bull that should be seen by others. I am a bit overwhelmed by the number of people who has asked about semen from him. I know that you would never buy semen from him, and quite frankly, if I ever collect Cruiser, I hope you never buy any. As for repeat buyers in the US, I try to concentrate on selling to Canadians but if Americans wish to buy, I will try to work with them to get their purchases delivered. I have several US customers, and I have made trips to Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma and Iowa numerous times with cattle to repeat customers. I have sold cattle to 21 states and there are several repeat buyers. I could go on and on but I won't bother.
Quite honestly, if I had listened to your advice over the years, my breeding program would be far lesser than it presently is. What you say to me and about me, does not concern me. The only thing that does bother me, is the thought that someone out there may actually believe the crap you spread. Enough said!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: oakview on January 25, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
You might talk to Bob Miller.  Millvale Farms has been in business a long, long, time.  He used (may still be using) a bull called HC Tracer, I believe.  Bob used him for years, swears he's an easy calver.  Check out the past sale catalogs of the Minnesota State Shorthorn Sale.  There's been a picture of Tracer, or whatever his name is, numerous times.  If you know Bob Miller, he'll tell you what he thinks and won't sugar coat it.  He lives in North Dakota, which to the best of my knowledge is in North America.  The cattle there are raised in as everyday conditions you can get.  Charlie Obrecht in Iowa had pretty good luck with an HC bull.  I think the one he bought was reserve champion at our state fair a few years back, so I guess they can work as show animals as well as in the "real world."  The past few years, they have concentrated on the show end of the spectrum for the grandkids, but their HC bull was pretty good.  From what I've been told, most of the HC bulls sold go to commercial cattlemen.  That could be why there aren't thousands of their offspring recorded.  There have been several HC bulls offered that I would have liked to use.  I'm sorry yours didn't work out.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: oakview on January 25, 2019, 11:06:47 AM
Maybe I should have checked the ASA website first, but so far my memory has been pretty good.  In case you're interested, HC Tracer has a - 5.0 BEPD with over 200 calves recorded sired by him.  He is still shown as active at over 11 years of age, though only 1 2018 calf was registered by him.  Lots of them over the years prior to that.  Tracer has pretty good numbers across the board.  I don't know of very many bulls with that kind of BEPD that approach 200 recorded offspring.  If you don't believe me, call Bob or look it up yourself. 
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 25, 2019, 11:11:14 AM
So no references? Imagine that.  You can blow smoke up everyones ass and deflect and write paragraphs about irrelevancies but you Ďwonít bother to go on and oní to answer a direct question.  Thatís as telling as it gets folks.

Those that heed my warnings of what you and your cattle are all about will all be better off.   Itís essentially an obligation of those who have first hand experience to speak up and warn the unsuspecting who might be inclined to fall prey to your rainbows and butterflies bs. 

For those who may not be familiar with your reruns.  Hereís a classic http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/ (http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/) 

Would Iíd be safe at this point to call him a total bust?  The bull that was to save the world and merge the lines not having even one notable offspring.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 25, 2019, 11:31:57 AM
Maybe I should have checked the ASA website first, but so far my memory has been pretty good.  In case you're interested, HC Tracer has a - 5.0 BEPD with over 200 calves recorded sired by him.  He is still shown as active at over 11 years of age, though only 1 2018 calf was registered by him.  Lots of them over the years prior to that.  Tracer has pretty good numbers across the board.  I don't know of very many bulls with that kind of BEPD that approach 200 recorded offspring.  If you don't believe me, call Bob or look it up yourself.

I have no reason not to believe you.  You seem honest from my take on here.   So weíve got 1 bull bred over a decade ago.  Ok. Reasonable.  Would 1 in a decade be consistent with the Ďstrata of cattle breedersí he alone places himself in? 

Thereís just a massive disconnect between his claims and what can actually be objectively substantiated.   Conjecture suits most but Iím more inclined to dal with those who have first hand dealings. 
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
So no references? Imagine that.  You can blow smoke up everyones ass and deflect and write paragraphs about irrelevancies but you Ďwonít bother to go on and oní to answer a direct question.  Thatís as telling as it gets folks.

Those that heed my warnings of what you and your cattle are all about will all be better off.   Itís essentially an obligation of those who have first hand experience to speak up and warn the unsuspecting who might be inclined to fall prey to your rainbows and butterflies bs. 

For those who may not be familiar with your reruns.  Hereís a classic [url]http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/[/url] ([url]http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/a-bull-that-can-cross-the-boundaries-between-clubbie-and-cowboy-cattle/[/url]) 

Would Iíd be safe at this point to call him a total bust?  The bull that was to save the world and merge the lines not having even one notable offspring.



I chose NOT to make any references in my post and I think that is the only fair thing to do to my customers. I certainly am not going to bring them into this discussion so you can bash them as well. You have to be totally NUTS if you think I am going start giving you a list of names. Probably what I should do, is list the names of people who keep contacting me, and apologizing to me for what you keep saying about me.  I will put my reputation against yours any day of the week, and I don't think I should have to be accountable to someone with about the worst reputation I have ever heard of in my 50+ years of breeding purebred Shorthorns. You don't like me. That is fine with me.  I have lots of other people who seem to think I am an OK person, and I will say that I am NOT a liar. I only state the facts as I have seen them. You bashed a bull that I used for several years and basically said nothing would ever come from him that would amount to anything. I sold him to another breeder at 8 years of age and I found out that he died a couple weeks ago. The people who bought him, just finalized buying all the semen that remains on him. One of the breeders in Ireland that purchased the European rights in him just emailed me and wants some more semen. I can't send any to him, because it is all sold now.
On another recent thread, there was a discussion as to where everyone has gone to on Steerplanet. I stayed out of that thread, but I will only say that a lot of people have left because of the attitudes of some of the regulars on this site, who have never set the world on fire breeding anything in their lives. A few of these people , including xbar, seem to only comment with negative comments. Very seldom will you see a post where they agree with something, and almost never will you see them mention any animal that they have raised that anyone who consider to be good for the beef industry.  We all have the freedom to use whatever bloodlines we want to. None of us have to be bashed and bullied by people like you, who have basically done squat in regards to producing cattle that are being sought out by others.
In the past hour, I have received another 3 texts from well known American cattlemen (not all are Sharthorn breeders) saying some pretty nasty things about you. I wasn't even going to respond to your ridiculous comments in your previous posts and then I ready where you slammed my honesty. That is where I draw the line. I have done everything in my life based on my reputation, and I consider my reputation to be my most valuable asset. Obviously, you don't care about your reputation, as you can just sit in front of your computer and make up any comments you dream up. Ryan, we live over 1200 miles apart. There is room for us both to raise whatever kind of cattle we want to. I simply cannot imagine what you are trying to prove here. You have damaged your own reputation beyond anything I have ever saw before. I will make you one promise. If you post pictures of some of the cattle you have raised that you think are the right kind, and I do not like the looks of them, I will not comment what I think on a public page such as this. If I like your pictures, I will definitely comment that I like them/ That is one of the big differences between us.
I could really care less, if I ever sell bulls to purebred producers. I have said this in the past, and I think  the same today, that, for me,  there really is no feeling quite as good as seeing cattlemen, who raise their families entirely from the calves they produce, bidding and buying bulls in your sale. It Is even better, when they return and buy some more. Ryan... you are a grown man... please grow up! I really haven't decided if I feel pity for you... or sorry for you... or both!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 25, 2019, 12:29:00 PM
The "classic" thread from 9 years ago awt to be in Faros next blog when it comes to cattle size and production-Hes more or less the self appointed conservatoire of small cows on grass-I sent him an email showing the Blue Greys and Highland cross cattle in Scotland -Northen England and Ireland-no response yet-they are the originals from as far back as the late 18th century-probably the last of the pure cattle over there,So whos thinking OUTSIDE THE BOX NOW? LOL O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 25, 2019, 01:42:38 PM
Quit promoting cow killers as viable options to new unsuspecting people and you wonít hear from me.   Keep up your swindling bullshit and Iíll make a point to provide context every time.  Your livelihood is contingent on taking advantage of good people who get suckered into your rosey stories, buy a bull, have disasterous experiences, and never go back.   The saddest part being that, for fear of reprisal, these people just keep their head down and go on their mundane way not looking to ruffle any feathers.  Not me.  F- that.  I have zero concern about what your Barney friends think of my reputation nor do I donít need anybody elseís money.  I actually have a secure occupation where I donít have to exaggerate and carry on for days about the laboró you see in the world I live in all people care about is showing them the baby.  Tangible products and results as opposed to your unsubstantiated salesman ramblings about how great you are.    Your only saving grace is that you inherited your existence and happen to be in an industry with little to no objective checks and balances and even less recourse for lying out your ass.   So remember, next time you put on your cowboy hat, get that leprechaun accent going as thick as you can get it and start that deceptive salesman talk you so frequently resort to, look for me,,, because Iíll be there.  Every.  single.  time. Warning any and all whoíll listen.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
More assumptions on your part Ryan. If you had any idea of what my family and I have been through, you may think before you say some of the things you said here. Actually I have had to pay for my farm twice, and thanks to my cows I do not owe 1 red cent to anyone now, except for a small balance on one credit card. I would never promote a bull that was a cow killer. Believe me, I would rather ship the bull and toss any semen before I did this. I invested a fair bit of money in two different bulls in the past few years that I shipped after seeing their calves. I will also remind you, that if we ever have a chance of regaining market share in bull use by Shorthorns, we can't just produce bulls as good as any other breed, but we have to produce bulls better than the breeds we are trying to gain the market share from. In a previous comment, I mentioned my best bull buyer. The first year I sold bulls to him, I also had a herd of 100 purebred Charolais cows. He came here to look at Charolais bulls. He bought 3 Charolais bulls and 2 Shorthorn bulls that day. Two years later, he started only buying Shorthorn bulls and he now also uses some Angus and Simmental bulls to keep some hybrid vigor in his herd, but he would be the first to tell you, that his Shorthorn sired calves are born as easily as either the Angus and Simmental sired calves. Another bull customer, who runs over 800 cows turned a Shorthorn bull out with a Polled Hereford bull with a set of yearling heifers. I kinda held my breath, because I did not consider the Shorthorn bull he bought from me, as being a good choice for heifers. He told me the next spring, that he wished the Shorthorn bull had bred all the heifers as he had far more calving problems from the Polled Hereford bull.
You can spread all the hate you want against me. As I said, I only took the time to respond because you are making comments on my integrity and that is where I draw the line. I have had a couple people send messages telling me to get a lawyer and sue you for what you have said, but I am too old to get that concerned about a bottom feeder like you.
Like I have said numerous times now, I would not hesitate to ship a  so called cow killer. I find it interesting that you have now called 3 different bulls I have commented on, as being cow killers, and I have yet to have a single calf from any of them require assistance except for a malpresentation. Two years ago, I did not touch a single calf at birth, which was the first time ever. Last year I only assisted two at calving. Both we cows I was keeping for another person but my own cows all were unassisted. I have said enough. I am quite sure I won't shut you up!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: doc-sun on January 25, 2019, 03:59:42 PM
you can't shut up an XPERT whether they know anything or not.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 25, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
you can't shut up an XPERT whether they know anything or not.

Yea god forbid anybody get in the way of yalls shamless plugs.  Salesman: the wretched of the earth.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 04:46:04 PM
I took a few pics of some Cruiser calves this afternoon.

The first one ( red and white markings) was the lightest bull calf we had at 75 lbs. He was born unassisted from a 2 year old heifer on February 24/18. The dam is a daughter of Waukaru Orion 2047 from the Picture Perfect cow family. He was weaned on October 25th and had a weaning weight of 504 lbs. No creep was fed to any of these calves.

The white bull was the heaviest Cruiser bull calf born in 2018. He was born March 13/18 and had a BW of 90 lbs. He weaned October 25/18 and weighed 632 lbs ( no creep) His dam is a two year old daughter of HC Bedrock 73B who is a low BW sire as well. There was 128 lbs difference between the lightest BW and the heaviest BW at weaning, with no difference in calving ease.

The red heifer was born March 3/18. She was the heaviest Cruiser heifer at 92 lbs and was born from a mature cow. She is a First Kiss cow from Waukaru. She weighed 646 lbs on October 25th ( no creep).

All the Cruiser calves have been unassisted at birth so far, with no visible differences in calving ease. The weaning weights were very consistent with the calves BWs, that is the lighter BW calves were also the lightest at weaning. I am weighing all the calves next week and it will be interesting to see if this pattern has continued after weaning.

This kind obviously won't work for xbar, but I think they will work for what I am trying to do. Hopefully they will also work for my customers. 

I have mentioned this here on SP before, but for the past 12 years now, I have weighed all my bulls every 28 days from weaning to our sale date in March. It has been interesting to see some trends. There has been many sires represented in these bulls. Counting the bulls in the pen this year, I have records on 404 bulls. The only bulls that go into the pen are those who were born unassisted  or have needed assistance because of a malpresentation such as a foot back, a head back or a backwards calf etc. If I help a calf, it does not get into the bull pen unless I feel it would have been born unassisted if it had been presented correctly. In 12 years of test figures, I have yet to find a single bull that was in the bottom 50% of my birthweights that has indexed over 100 for postweaning gain. NOT... A... Single... One!  I still offer the lower performing bulls as they are good choices for breeding heifers. Cruiser did not make the 100 index ( average in the pen ) the year he was in it. He was my high seller because of his shape and muscle. This is why I have been saying, that we should be talking more about optimum birth weights rather than minimums. The trend I am seeing may be more pronounced in the Shorthorn breed, I don't know. I have talked with lots of people in other breeds and most tell me that they occasionally see a very light BW bull with above average performance. I keep hoping I will eventually find one. I am starting to think that almost everything in life is best in moderation, and that includes birth weights.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on January 25, 2019, 06:15:03 PM
I know that I have spent 4 months or so trying to photograph a bull. After about 500 shots and three months.....I came up with the perfect photo. Half of the photo's sucked. But I could put two photos......of the same bull up.....taken on the same day......and they don't even look like same bull.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 06:55:06 PM
I know that I have spent 4 months or so trying to photograph a bull. After about 500 shots and three months.....I came up with the perfect photo. Half of the photo's sucked. But I could put two photos......of the same bull up.....taken on the same day......and they don't even look like same bull.

That is exactly why I had a lady who takes cattle pictures for a living take the picture of Cruiser that I posted. I have tried to do it by myself, and I have never had any that looked as good as the bull does. Her exact words were " he is the stoutest Shorthorn bull I have ever laid eyes on'. Her family has been in the beef business for generations and she takes pictures throughout Canada.
What you have said here is exactly right. We almost froze to death picturing last week when it was -25 and windy so I took some more today. It still took me a long time to feel my fingers when I came into the house, but I did get some taken. Sometimes you have to take several pictures to get one that even looks like the animal actually does.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 25, 2019, 07:06:29 PM
Seems to me that Grants sale has a sale average that would put him right there with Saskvalley and Muridale sale averages. I didnít crunch true numbers. Generally speaking is all Iím saying. I see lots of saskvalley and muridale genetucs being used down here. Almost every big ďcommercialĒ type sale here has offspring of genetics from sask and Muri. Studer, JSF, Bar N, Leveldale, BSG, Paint Valley, all have used those genetics heavily. Iíve never seen an HC bull being plugged in lately. Seems to me the HC cattle could be a nice outcross to those other ranches but you never see it in any of their pedigrees. I could be wrong. The JT Trans X bull must of done some good. Thatís a outfit that sells in Grants sale. I see lots of criss cross from the saskvalley and Muri programs. Similar environments maybe. Iíve never been to either place. Never seen JITís cows. Done lots of deals with XBAR and have some of his cattle here now. He had a bull calf hand picked for me. He didnít like how the calf was developing so he sent me a different bull. His opinion on bulls and his experience shouldnít be looked upon as an attack on somebody. Itís reality. Grant has a good thing going with his embryos and semen sales. He does good at the shows up there. Canít say he hasnít done his share of winning up there. Canít begrudge a mans success. I think the disconnect comes when another post comes up claiming a world beater of a bull with minimal evidence to back it up. If I pay 16k for a bull and somebody offers me 16k for half soon after, itís a ridiculous business decision to say no. Ridiculous. Unless itís a personal beef I canít see why somebody would say no. How many shorthorn bulls have sold 16k in semen? Offspring? That list isnít very long compared to angus. Iíve seen angus bulls bring 18,500 at a local sale in Ohio! Never seen a shorthorn bull bring more than 3500 at anything smaller than a beef expo. I donít know if any outfit here that sells every bull they have for sale. Maybe some do. I just donít know of any.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 25, 2019, 07:38:04 PM
Pretty on the mark E 6-When it comes down to it-though-there really isnt much available on HC genetics at SEK or Cattle Visions etc other than Touchdown: so the small breeders may not feel like hunting the genetics down-Why the Paint Valleys Bylands jungels and leveldales of the world dont use these genetics probably stems from the fact that JITs deal is not strictly a performance herd-they are purebreds-that right or wrong  also integrate show-popular cattle genetics-and as such have some NON-PERFORMANCE BASED breeding-such as Sull Salute, popular Canadian blood like Pure Gold, Shadybrook etc.  yatta yatta.He did produce several good CE bulls along the way too-but none of them were readily (or easily) available down here-Touchdown is about it down here: he is a hit or miss bull on US Genetics JMO-But he REALLY worked on a couple commercial simm based cows at least when we used him the females kept are good cows- he was an EZ calver and was used on  several heifers-live calves-but they went to the sale barn a bust on the shorthorns I used him on-just didnt knick on them thats about all the experience i have Bollums in Minnesota used a bunch of embryos etc from the female side-so have some of the guys like Ralph Larson (I think) in Montana tho that may be OKOTOCS cattle tooO0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 25, 2019, 08:05:16 PM
Iíve seen more of a co- mingle type situation unfolding more lately than ever. JSF has 4 Cates bulls in their sale. Cates is issuing a Leveldale bred bull. There is a bull in the Leveldale sale, Boardwalk x Maestro with a big ol rear hip. Lot 13 I think. PVF drove out to Shelly Petersonís to buy the Eagle bull. And thatís a long ass drive. The performance type breeders arenít afraid to plug in a show type bull. Itís not hard to find those examples in the sale books. Theyíll dive the distance and spend the cash if they think the bull is worth it. 

A bull as stout as Cruiser looks should be bred to a SULL Red Knight cow down here. Maybe Gilmans Envied on one of JItís cows in a flush would be cool.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 08:59:39 PM
Seems to me that Grants sale has a sale average that would put him right there with Saskvalley and Muridale sale averages. I didnít crunch true numbers. Generally speaking is all Iím saying. I see lots of saskvalley and muridale genetucs being used down here. Almost every big ďcommercialĒ type sale here has offspring of genetics from sask and Muri. Studer, JSF, Bar N, Leveldale, BSG, Paint Valley, all have used those genetics heavily. Iíve never seen an HC bull being plugged in lately. Seems to me the HC cattle could be a nice outcross to those other ranches but you never see it in any of their pedigrees. I could be wrong. The JT Trans X bull must of done some good. Thatís a outfit that sells in Grants sale. I see lots of criss cross from the saskvalley and Muri programs. Similar environments maybe. Iíve never been to either place. Never seen JITís cows. Done lots of deals with XBAR and have some of his cattle here now. He had a bull calf hand picked for me. He didnít like how the calf was developing so he sent me a different bull. His opinion on bulls and his experience shouldnít be looked upon as an attack on somebody. Itís reality. Grant has a good thing going with his embryos and semen sales. He does good at the shows up there. Canít say he hasnít done his share of winning up there. Canít begrudge a mans success. I think the disconnect comes when another post comes up claiming a world beater of a bull with minimal evidence to back it up. If I pay 16k for a bull and somebody offers me 16k for half soon after, itís a ridiculous business decision to say no. Ridiculous. Unless itís a personal beef I canít see why somebody would say no. How many shorthorn bulls have sold 16k in semen? Offspring? That list isnít very long compared to angus. Iíve seen angus bulls bring 18,500 at a local sale in Ohio! Never seen a shorthorn bull bring more than 3500 at anything smaller than a beef expo. I donít know if any outfit here that sells every bull they have for sale. Maybe some do. I just donít know of any.

I agree with you in regards to Cruiser's buyers deciding not to sell a half interest for what they paid for him. That was their decision and I had no part in it. I was not involved in Cruiser other than I had collected a few straws of semen when he was a year old. When the man that bought him died suddenly, his wife asked me if I would winter a set of replacement heifers for her. She offered me a half interest in Cruiser to do this. I accepted her offer and I am glad I did. I would love to use some bulls that you have mentioned here, but very few Americans collect Canadian qualified semen.
I have not pursued the US market for several years, and Touchdown is the last bull I had at Cattle Visions. I still get quarterly checks from them for sales. I prefer to sell semen myself, only because it gives me a connection with the people who are using my bulls. I have semen stored at Hawkeye Breeders and I have my bulls listed on our website and I still seem to sell a nice quantity each year. I also have semen from 8-10 bulls in Australia, and I sell far more semen there than I ever thought of selling in the US. Like I said earlier, my customers are basically commercial producers, but I have a few sales each year to purebred breeders. My top bull in 2015 was $32,000 and another at $14,000. Cruiser was the top bull in 2016 at $16,500. Last year, my top bull was $11,000. Last year I had commercial buyers pay $9000, $8000 and two at $7000 and these are prices I can certainly live off.  When I started my ET program, it didn't make much sense to me, to do the same thing as everyone else was doing. I have used some American breeding but I don't chase it. I don't particularly try to produce show cattle which is what most everyone else seems to try to do. The UK and Australia are my biggest embryo markets with several hundred embryos sold to the UK each year. Australia has been close but the wicked drought has slowed that market down some. I still am selling embryos down there though. I am doing things differently than lots of others do. The fact that since I started in this ET deal, as a way to get to genetics to the US when BSE hit Canada, I have sold over 2400 embryos to 14 countries is something I never imagined would happen. I think it proves that there is a definite interest in Shorthorn embryos around the world. I predict that the Far East countries like Viet Nam, and Mongolia could be the next big market that shows up. Both these countries have been buying thousands of doses of Red Angus semen in Canada in recent years. I recently had a Mongolian government official meet with me, and he is very interested in Shorthorn genetics some time in the future.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on January 25, 2019, 09:01:09 PM
Yea-Jits females have been around down here alot more than the bulls-Id read between the lines a little on the Jungles Cates deal-Cates just won Denver female show with 15 year old same (in this case Im saying it) old COW KILLER GENETICS and like some of the other big money breeders-they need some street cred birth wieght and otherwise the numbers are not gonna be in thier favor much longer (and shoudnt be-STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THAT) RE CF Solution and a flotilla of other MISREPRESENTED BULLS-i like Envied -especially on something real wide made from the rear-dont think hed knick on the Jit stuff Ive seen-Its too bad he wasnt around when the ground pounders like the Double visions, Navajos, Steer makers, Stuffs, Windstars,Okie Dokies, Double Downs etc were around-Hed work GANGBUSTERS ON THEM-just like 4S Impact shaker and the Dividends Impact influenced cattle did-Dividends Impact was the strongest blood ive seen in a bull-EVERYTHING LOOKED JUST LIKE HIM-so does Envied-its back there-but the resemblance is unmistakeable so is the color of Impacts best known son 3 W Payoff-who color wise looked just like a fullblood maine and he was polled too-HOWED THAT HAPPEN LOL?O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 25, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
Seems to me that Grants sale has a sale average that would put him right there with Saskvalley and Muridale sale averages. I didnít crunch true numbers. Generally speaking is all Iím saying. I see lots of saskvalley and muridale genetucs being used down here. Almost every big ďcommercialĒ type sale here has offspring of genetics from sask and Muri. Studer, JSF, Bar N, Leveldale, BSG, Paint Valley, all have used those genetics heavily. Iíve never seen an HC bull being plugged in lately. Seems to me the HC cattle could be a nice outcross to those other ranches but you never see it in any of their pedigrees. I could be wrong. The JT Trans X bull must of done some good. Thatís a outfit that sells in Grants sale. I see lots of criss cross from the saskvalley and Muri programs. Similar environments maybe. Iíve never been to either place. Never seen JITís cows. Done lots of deals with XBAR and have some of his cattle here now. He had a bull calf hand picked for me. He didnít like how the calf was developing so he sent me a different bull. His opinion on bulls and his experience shouldnít be looked upon as an attack on somebody. Itís reality. Grant has a good thing going with his embryos and semen sales. He does good at the shows up there. Canít say he hasnít done his share of winning up there. Canít begrudge a mans success. I think the disconnect comes when another post comes up claiming a world beater of a bull with minimal evidence to back it up. If I pay 16k for a bull and somebody offers me 16k for half soon after, itís a ridiculous business decision to say no. Ridiculous. Unless itís a personal beef I canít see why somebody would say no. How many shorthorn bulls have sold 16k in semen? Offspring? That list isnít very long compared to angus. Iíve seen angus bulls bring 18,500 at a local sale in Ohio! Never seen a shorthorn bull bring more than 3500 at anything smaller than a beef expo. I donít know if any outfit here that sells every bull they have for sale. Maybe some do. I just donít know of any.

I agree with you in regards to Cruiser's buyers deciding not to sell a half interest for what they paid for him. That was their decision and I had no part in it. I was not involved in Cruiser other than I had collected a few straws of semen when he was a year old. When the man that bought him died suddenly, his wife asked me if I would winter a set of replacement heifers for her. She offered me a half interest in Cruiser to do this. I accepted her offer and I am glad I did. I would love to use some bulls that you have mentioned here, but very few Americans collect Canadian qualified semen.
I have not pursued the US market for several years, and Touchdown is the last bull I had at Cattle Visions. I still get quarterly checks from them for sales. I prefer to sell semen myself, only because it gives me a connection with the people who are using my bulls. I have semen stored at Hawkeye Breeders and I have my bulls listed on our website and I still seem to sell a nice quantity each year. I also have semen from 8-10 bulls in Australia, and I sell far more semen there than I ever thought of selling in the US. Like I said earlier, my customers are basically commercial producers, but I have a few sales each year to purebred breeders. My top bull in 2015 was $32,000 and another at $14,000. Cruiser was the top bull in 2016 at $16,500. Last year, my top bull was $11,000. Last year I had commercial buyers pay $9000, $8000 and two at $7000 and these are prices I can certainly live off.  When I started my ET program, it didn't make much sense to me, to do the same thing as everyone else was doing. I have used some American breeding but I don't chase it. I don't particularly try to produce show cattle which is what most everyone else seems to try to do. The UK and Australia are my biggest embryo markets with several hundred embryos sold to the UK each year. Australia has been close but the wicked drought has slowed that market down some. I still am selling embryos down there though. I am doing things differently than lots of others do. The fact that since I started in this ET deal, as a way to get to genetics to the US when BSE hit Canada, I have sold over 2400 embryos to 14 countries is something I never imagined would happen. I think it proves that there is a definite interest in Shorthorn embryos around the world. I predict that the Far East countries like Viet Nam, and Mongolia could be the next big market that shows up. Both these countries have been buying thousands of doses of Red Angus semen in Canada in recent years. I recently had a Mongolian government official meet with me, and he is very interested in Shorthorn genetics some time in the future.

Highest selling bull I know of from Canada was Thermal Energy. What happened to your 32k bull? I honestly donít remember the Bull you speak of. Americans pay good money for bulls. The UK prefers bigger cattle. Australia seems to as well but not to the extreme of the uk. Americans want 6 frame at most, thick, easy calving cattle.  Thatís why Mark always wants to see them from behind.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 25, 2019, 09:26:58 PM
Yea-Jits females have been around down here alot more than the bulls-Id read between the lines a little on the Jungles Cates deal-Cates just won Denver female show with 15 year old same (in this case Im saying it) old COW KILLER GENETICS and like some of the other big money breeders-they need some street cred birth wieght and otherwise the numbers are not gonna be in thier favor much longer (and shoudnt be-STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THAT) RE CF Solution and a flotilla of other MISREPRESENTED BULLS-i like Envied -especially on something real wide made from the rear-dont think hed knick on the Jit stuff Ive seen-Its too bad he wasnt around when the ground pounders like the Double visions, Navajos, Steer makers, Stuffs, Windstars,Okie Dokies, Double Downs etc were around-Hed work GANGBUSTERS ON THEM-just like 4S Impact shaker and the Dividends Impact influenced cattle did-Dividends Impact was the strongest blood ive seen in a bull-EVERYTHING LOOKED JUST LIKE HIM-so does Envied-its back there-but the resemblance is unmistakeable so is the color of Impacts best known son 3 W Payoff-who color wise looked just like a fullblood maine and he was polled too-HOWED THAT HAPPEN LOL?O0

The JSF/ CF bull deal is what it is. The bulls in the sale are straight CF breeding. You canít sell a bull very well in Modoc. But in the Dakotas you can. Canít be much difference in environment from JIT to JSF. Yet the cattle sure are different in type.

The Envied bull has made some nice calves from what Iíve seen and heís available to the mere mortals. The Sneed cows have made some good offspring.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 09:43:14 PM
Highest selling bull I know of from Canada was Thermal Energy. What happened to your 32k bull? I honestly donít remember the Bull you speak of. Americans pay good money for bulls. The UK prefers bigger cattle. Australia seems to as well but not to the extreme of the uk. Americans want 6 frame at most, thick, easy calving cattle.  Thatís why Mark always wants to see them from behind.
[/quote]


Our bull at $32,000 was HC Bluebook 22B. He sold to a show outfit in Ontario. The runner up was a well known purebred herd in Canada, and there was at least 1 commercial man who I saw bid to over $18,000 on him. When I spoke with him after the sale, he said he has just sold 700 calves and averaged almost $1600 on them( the highest cattle market we have seen here in history), so I think he had some coin in his pocket that day. He did buy 4 bulls that day with a high of $9850 and the other 3 in the $4000- 5500 range. This guy is another repeat customer and he has bought bulls the last 3 sales for his herd of 800 black cows in Manitoba. I have attached a picture of Bluebook taken at 13 months of age. I have semen from him in Canada, USA and Australia. Unlike lots of American bulls that sell for good money and have syndicates formed to do so, The buyer of Bluebook was one breeder and an AI unit in Ireland. In order for semen to go to any EU country, they must be IBR negative, which means they cannot be vaccinated with IBR vaccine. I had not vaccinated Bluebook as I was trying to get another bull that would qualify for Europe. When this happened, I agreed to forgo their share of the purchase price and I took back ownership of the semen rights in him. It worked out OK for me, as I have sold just over $20,000 of semen in Canada, and close to $8000 in Australia as well as about $3000 in the US.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 25, 2019, 09:46:01 PM
Oh I remember him. Didnít the shorthorn place with the Clydesdales buy him?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 25, 2019, 10:09:07 PM
Oh I remember him. Didnít the shorthorn place with the Clydesdales buy him?

Yup... that is correct. After Bluebook's show career was over, the owner said to me that he was only worth market price to him then. I told him I would give him market price, and of course he then said he would not do this. After a few months of negotiating, I was able to do a deal to bring him back here. 
As a sideline to the Bluebook story, when he was shown at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto as a two year old, we were approached  by two dark skinned men who asked if they could see Bluebook out of the stall. I took him up and down the isle a few times while they looked at him. They then asked if he would be for sale? it turns out that they were buying agents for a Shiek in Quator, and they said that they had been buying Charolais and some Shorthorns in England. Quator is the wealthiest country on earth. The guy who owned Bluebook said that most anything was for sale but he would need $50,000 in US cash in order to sell him. They did not even blink at the price and said they would agree to this and would be back in 1 week with the money. One day later, there was a Muslim attack in Paris where a lot of people were killed. I talked with the guy in Ontario and we both agreed that there are times when money is not the only thing of importance. He emailed the Arabs and said that the bull was no longer for sale. I did some checking when I got home ( and I still have their business cards) and they were indeed who they said they were. I found the name of the Shiek in Quator, and read that he has a dairy herd of 1800 milking cows and that he was also starting to raise beef cattle that had been purchased in England. They were distilling water from the ocean and irrigating the desert to produce forage for the cattle herds. The story also said that he had purchased several Thoroughbred horses in sales in Kentucky at some very high dollars. ( Some in the $1 million range).  Bluebook is  here now and is doing a very good job for us. I ma not sure what would have happened if they hadn't attacked Paris that day. There is a good chance Bluebook would have boarded a private 747 and now be living on a sand pile.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on January 26, 2019, 08:00:18 AM
The shiek in quator!? Qatar I assume you mean? Or is this Quatar a Fantasia type place of yours!?  but boy the **** is getting deep in here!  The stories just keep getting more and more convoluted.  If it werenít for the unsuspectingís hard earned money on the line Iíd just fín laugh at the outrageousness. 
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 26, 2019, 08:17:03 AM
Sorry for the spelling mistake xbar. I am so used to using a " u" after a " q" that I did not even notice that I had done that. I thought it was a interesting story to mention. Nothing more than that. I also know that these two Arabs came very close to purchasing one of the Charolais champions at the Royal that year as well. The deal fell apart after the terror attacks in France as well. I heard this from the General Manager of the Canadian Charolais Assocation. I only mentioned this story as I thought it may interest some. Obviously, not you. I am fine with that.  To me, it just shows that the entire world is becoming a market place for beef genetics.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on January 26, 2019, 08:30:16 AM
Seems to me that Grants sale has a sale average that would put him right there with Saskvalley and Muridale sale averages. I didnít crunch true numbers. Generally speaking is all Iím saying. I see lots of saskvalley and muridale genetucs being used down here. Almost every big ďcommercialĒ type sale here has offspring of genetics from sask and Muri. Studer, JSF, Bar N, Leveldale, BSG, Paint Valley, all have used those genetics heavily. Iíve never seen an HC bull being plugged in lately. Seems to me the HC cattle could be a nice outcross to those other ranches but you never see it in any of their pedigrees. I could be wrong. The JT Trans X bull must of done some good. Thatís a outfit that sells in Grants sale. I see lots of criss cross from the saskvalley and Muri programs. Similar environments maybe. Iíve never been to either place. Never seen JITís cows. Done lots of deals with XBAR and have some of his cattle here now. He had a bull calf hand picked for me. He didnít like how the calf was developing so he sent me a different bull. His opinion on bulls and his experience shouldnít be looked upon as an attack on somebody. Itís reality. Grant has a good thing going with his embryos and semen sales. He does good at the shows up there. Canít say he hasnít done his share of winning up there. Canít begrudge a mans success. I think the disconnect comes when another post comes up claiming a world beater of a bull with minimal evidence to back it up. If I pay 16k for a bull and somebody offers me 16k for half soon after, itís a ridiculous business decision to say no. Ridiculous. Unless itís a personal beef I canít see why somebody would say no. How many shorthorn bulls have sold 16k in semen? Offspring? That list isnít very long compared to angus. Iíve seen angus bulls bring 18,500 at a local sale in Ohio! Never seen a shorthorn bull bring more than 3500 at anything smaller than a beef expo. I donít know if any outfit here that sells every bull they have for sale. Maybe some do. I just donít know of any.

There is no easy quick fix way to develop a market for Shorthorn bulls. Over 30 years ago, I made a long term goal of mine to develop a market for my bulls. I made this a goal as I watched several of my friends in other breeds sell their bulls to make their payments. I was always selling my females to do the same thing. It took years and years to start to sell Shorthorn bulls here, in quantity. It still requires a pile of work each year, but it is getting easier than it used to be.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on January 26, 2019, 07:22:23 PM
Oh I remember him. Didnít the shorthorn place with the Clydesdales buy him?

Yup... that is correct. After Bluebook's show career was over, the owner said to me that he was only worth market price to him then. I told him I would give him market price, and of course he then said he would not do this. After a few months of negotiating, I was able to do a deal to bring him back here. 
As a sideline to the Bluebook story, when he was shown at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto as a two year old, we were approached  by two dark skinned men who asked if they could see Bluebook out of the stall. I took him up and down the isle a few times while they looked at him. They then asked if he would be for sale? it turns out that they were buying agents for a Shiek in Quator, and they said that they had been buying Charolais and some Shorthorns in England. Quator is the wealthiest country on earth. The guy who owned Bluebook said that most anything was for sale but he would need $50,000 in US cash in order to sell him. They did not even blink at the price and said they would agree to this and would be back in 1 week with the money. One day later, there was a Muslim attack in Paris where a lot of people were killed. I talked with the guy in Ontario and we both agreed that there are times when money is not the only thing of importance. He emailed the Arabs and said that the bull was no longer for sale. I did some checking when I got home ( and I still have their business cards) and they were indeed who they said they were. I found the name of the Shiek in Quator, and read that he has a dairy herd of 1800 milking cows and that he was also starting to raise beef cattle that had been purchased in England. They were distilling water from the ocean and irrigating the desert to produce forage for the cattle herds. The story also said that he had purchased several Thoroughbred horses in sales in Kentucky at some very high dollars. ( Some in the $1 million range).  Bluebook is  here now and is doing a very good job for us. I ma not sure what would have happened if they hadn't attacked Paris that day. There is a good chance Bluebook would have boarded a private 747 and now be living on a sand pile.

Send me their phone number. Iíve got some shorthorns to sell them.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on December 03, 2019, 04:27:24 PM
This is a son of HC Cruiser 59C that we showed at Agribition last week. He is HC Gasper 55G and he was born March 23rd,2019. He had an actual BW of 73 lbs and he was the second lowest BW of all our calves this year. He was weaned in late October and did not have any creep feed through the summer. At the last minute he was substituted for a bull I had planned to show that got sick. He weighed 768 at the show so what you see here was all done with milk and grass.
His sire HC Cruiser 59C has recently been sold to Shadybrook Farm Ltd, West Brome. Quebec. We will continue to use him through semen we have retained in him. Last January, when I posted a picture of Cruiser, several people who are on this site regularly told me he was a cow killer and yet we have had another calf crop that was completely born unassisted. The heaviest calf ever born from Cruiser had a BW pf 102 lbs and was born unassisted from a huge Simmental X Shorthorn cow. This calf is a incredibly long bodied red neck roan and is very impressive  Most of his calves are in the 80-90 lb range. A well known breeder of another breed, recently referred to Cruiser as being the stoutest beef bull of any breed he has ever seen. i thought his statement was pretty amazing considering that Cruiser isn't black!
We have not decided if we will sell 55G or if we will retain him to replace Cruiser, but if he is sold, he will be in pur Sun Country Sale on March 10th. He won his class in the Agribition show and was Reserve Junior Bull Calf Champion. We had interest in him from many people, including breeders of 3 other breeds, and a few clubbie producers. I wish we could have got him on display in Denver, but we will be busy clipping and picturing our sale cattle while Denver is on. An American told us, that he is the best bull prospect he has seen anywhere this year, including Louisville, Toronto and Kansas City.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 04, 2019, 07:37:21 AM
Hes gonna sell some semen.Very interesting pedigree-his dam must be very unique-BEING HALF HAUMONT BREEDING (for all you maternal  JIT Bashers out there LOL)-along with Prosperity etc Then the documented performance cattle:gold, hot commodity and australian etc breeding on the top Hes got the deep Canadian look AND A  butt but remains prettier fronted than alot of bulls regardless of breed-Then ad real world  maternal that clubby and popular shorthorn show cattle need Just a JMO Spread him out and make it easy to get for everyone-Put him on  Cattle Visions and SEK that way those who want to try 3 straws etc will be able to try him along with the larger amounts-He will build some momentum long term If he breeds well: the flood gates will probably open-just takes time . Im sure you will sell a bunch of semen  in Canada England, Ireland as well O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 05, 2019, 07:29:04 AM
Bw on your sign at Agri sure doesnít say 73 pounds. Looks like it says 86 or 96 pounds. I zoomed in and couldnít be for sure. But that donít look like a 73
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 05, 2019, 09:23:24 AM
i saw that too. Looks like 86-Id still use him on a hardoing looking angular cow-lots of them around.I didnt think anyone would use one that massive on a heifer-Hes still got some pretty good bones in the pedigree O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on December 05, 2019, 11:07:51 AM
Bw on your sign at Agri sure doesnít say 73 pounds. Looks like it says 86 or 96 pounds. I zoomed in and couldnít be for sure. But that donít look like a 73

The BW on my sign at Agribition was a mistake. When I looked up his birth information in my calf book, I read the BW of the calf below him in it. Of course, I was filling out my stall cards in a hurry just before I left for the show. I came home after dropping the cattle off at the show and happened to look at my calving book again and realized that I had made a mistake. When I got back to the show I did not have a erasable marker to make the correction on the sign.( It was supposed to be in the top drawer of my tack box)  His correct actual BW was 73 lbs, and he was weighed on a calf scale and it was not estimated or one of those measuring tapes used. He was very tiny at birth, and I thought he was going to be a twin. There wasn't another calf.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Dale on December 05, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
On Digitalbeef (Canadian) his BW is 73 lb.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on December 05, 2019, 12:37:48 PM
No doubt in my mind he is a heifer bull.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 05, 2019, 05:22:44 PM
Remains to be seen-hes a really good one regardless sure spruce up some red ones-Probably the coolest Canadian Ive seen and not a whole lot of cow killer genetics in his pedigree O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on December 06, 2019, 03:23:53 PM
Looks like he has the white hoofs...Ö..doesn't seem to show much testicle......what was his age?
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on December 06, 2019, 05:57:07 PM
No doubt in my mind he is a heifer bull.

Oh absolutely.  Nothing in the pedigree to suggest otherwise  ::)


SB PROUD VENTURE BW EPD 5.4
CF TRUMP 3.8
JSF TOP HAND 4.6
SPRYS ALL GOLD 3.8
SPRYS AUSSIE GOLD 6.3
BYLAND GOLD PLATED 5.1
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 06, 2019, 09:04:56 PM
I have seen calves out of all but Sprys Aussie gold The Jungels, Brockmueller Bennett of washington Rocker Bros Byland Goldwalk incarnations et al were bred for growth in an era when a 90 pound calf was the norm - I WISH THEY STILL WERE I seriously doubt over a multi generation pedigree there are a bunch of 150 pound monsters out of the performance cattle listed I cannot vouch for bulls used by Ripberger etc-(I dont think they can either) but thier cows are the obvious other side of the equationThat leaves-CF prosperity his dams grandsire-Seen a ton of them used him myself and we will probably breed one heifer to him this year,hes every bit the DOUCUMENTED FOR 25 YEARS OR WHATEVER .08 CE bull as listed-just doesnt throw a great one every time I will take a wild guess you have some of the performance blood-RE RELATIVES TO SOME OF THE BULLS LISTED  blood in your herd -BREED THEM TO DIFFERENT COWS-different results THE SIRE-ON THE DAMS SIDE FROM PROSPERITY IS A LINE BRED HAUMONT WHOSE EPDS WOULD PROBABLY BE AT LEAST MINUS 3  FROM 100 YEARS OR WHATEVER OF LINEBREEDING IM gonna say if you average the top and bottom of this bull VERSUS what kind of U S reasonably sized female he is bred to-You are gonna see 85 to 90 pound calves due to the length and mass he posses-and the amalgom of cattle behind him-A large percentage of which are highly documented in the quest for some reason in bws and get there quick Grow. A real weighed 85 to 90 pound Shorthorn calf that isnt shaped like a football can come from many heifers -although i obviously dont advocate it-and just about any cow.Im sure they would be 5-10 pounds smaller out of real low BW genetics I have had a number of extremly low BW calves as well-NONE had the performance to merit keeping I dont think you are gonna produce 1175 pound yearling bulls made like him  in the 70s at birth in this breed down here  very often -Simple backwood physics they aint made like that O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on December 07, 2019, 08:34:11 AM
I don't consider any bull a heifer bull until I have had calves from them. I used his sire on a set of heifers, as a yearling after the bull I had planned to use, was killed by lightning. I was concerned but knew that he had been born unassisted from a first calf heifer. The heifers calved good.

I got an email from Shadybrook last night to let me know that Cruiser had arrived there after being 10 days on route from here. Lloyd Wright said he has never seen a Shorthorn bull that thick, and this is what others have said as well. While at Agribition, a well known Angus breeder stopped at my stall. He saw Cruiser last spring and he told me that he has told several others that Cruiser is the stoutest bull he has ever seen. I thought this was quite a statement to come from an Angus breeder.

If you don't like either of these bulls, you don't need to use them. Simple as that!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 07, 2019, 12:30:58 PM
 (clapping) Pretty well states it-They are both useful to me and I forgot about Hotshot being back there with Hot Commodity who made magic with the "EPDS" of very hi BW show genetics-between: him, Prosperity, and the Haumont bull there are several generations of  documented CE in this calf close to 68% of his recent pedigree: more so than several US bulls that are just sons of Hot Commodity Seems like alot of people rely only on the percentages of "capture" "accuracy" RE EPDS rather than the real world  cattle combined in an animal. There are alot of 90 pound plus BW bulls with "great" epds O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: justintime on December 07, 2019, 12:34:46 PM
Looks like he has the white hoofs...Ö..doesn't seem to show much testicle......what was his age?

I wouldn't call his hooves white,but they are a lighter brown that I would like. This said, his sire has hooves that are a similar color and they have never been touched and probably never will need to be, Cruiser has an excellent hoof structure. As for testicle size, he definitely is adequate. Again when we were semen testing for our bull sale when Cruiser was 7 months old, my vet said there was no reason to test him, as he was too young and would never pass. I suggested that she test him and we would at least have a test result to compare any future tests with. We all were amazed when at 7 months of age he received the highest score ( 94%) out of the 31 yearling and two year old bulls tested that day. When I took Cruiser to collect some more semen before he left here, the vet said he had one the best semen samples he had seen this fall. I am hoping 55G will be like his sire, but we won't know for a few months yet.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 07, 2019, 12:59:54 PM
validation from independent sources is always a plus.

slight knock.  the narrative always seems to be any negative is actually a positive at the opposite end of the spectrum.

this just isn't possible.

this type of narrative actually is not a positive because it's just so predictable and rarely comes with independent sources of verification.

the 10 standard deviation to the positive narrative is a little tiresome.

if the narrative were true even at a marginal level, shorthorn would register more than angus and dominate.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 07, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
Any negative as construed by whom? I would think :and stated that an 85 or 90 pound calf by that young bull out of a US bred female would be fine and more or less expected -Especially if it ended up being made like him In fact- my first reaction was that a great number of Canadian buyers may not think he has the performance because ALOT calves are above 100 pounds on a regular basis according to the sales posted O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 07, 2019, 03:13:47 PM
Any negative as construed by whom?


JIT frames many things that could be a negative as an extreme edge case to the positive.

one could easily look back at many posts.

not a big knock, but sort of a broken record.

take the hooves observation.  everyone has anecdotal evidence they would like dark hooves and they are the greatest thing since whatever and never crack except used in an argument, oh, i had a dark hoofed bull that cracked, but this light hoofed bull has never had a problem implying they never will except that when they do, it's some sort of outlier the other way with explanation xyz.

birth weights are another, paraphrasing.  "never had a problem and sold infinite embryo's all over the world no problem, but someone has a problem and it's not a problem"

for some people, it's a little tiring to keep hearing the same pitch over and over.


the blowback to that sales pitch is why this thread is named what it is.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 07, 2019, 04:05:59 PM
I would agree somewhat that his his answers seem to be agreeable and not very force full no matter what the subject  or how caustic things get However hes a little smarter than that. I distinctly remember him on several occasions stating that ONCE IN A WHILE there can be big ones out of leroy etc-And this was probably 10 tears or so ago. Hes a good salesman-who will describe a slight risk in using a bull-(any bull etc) in a manner that may make it seem remote. Understated if you will Thats what he was like in person the only time I met him 2007 I had just heard of leroy and he said what he knew about him no big accolades etc just matter of fact If I did that much business id be all happy face too-But i have what some think is a negative attitude and have talked my way out of sales if I dont think things will work  O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 07, 2019, 05:45:44 PM
I like the leroy bull.  not sure slight risk was way to represent him.


in general, like what JIT does, says.


the slight risk was not slight, meaning one needs a multiplication factor for those types of statements.


there probably would have been a couple customers in particular that if there wouldn't have been such an expectation gap, things would have been better.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 07, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
i think the perception can sometimes be a fire and ice mating portrayed as a type to type outcome.


i think it's ok to have portrayed leroy as more of a risk than he was portrayed as.
 
i think he also had some defect too, but i thought he was a good enough bull someone should have linebred him to dilute his bad qualities and concentrate his good ones. I think JIT had one such bull.  can't remember. probably needed a couple more generations to find the consistent balance between traits he could have been.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Steve123 on December 08, 2019, 06:54:20 AM
i think he also had some defect too, but i thought he was a good enough bull someone should have linebred him to dilute his bad qualities and concentrate his good ones. I think JIT had one such bull.  can't remember. probably needed a couple more generations to find the consistent balance between traits he could have been.

Doesn't line breeding accentuate the bad qualities.  It turns a recessive trait into a dominate trait and most defects are recessive because they destroy a population when they are expressed.  Just wondering, I also don't need the abuse.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 08, 2019, 07:55:28 AM
Good point-but I think knabes a lttle tongue and cheek on that one. Linebreeding big bws results in the higher probability of big BWS . jmo Same applies to low bws and milk depends which side of the fence you are breeding O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 09, 2019, 04:31:42 PM
line breeding can speed up the selection process if segregation exists for traits of interests.


line breeding in and of itself doesn't really do good or bad.


if anything, it identifies bad things and allows faster positive selection.


pedigree anxiety 4th.


https://hereford.org/static/files/0708_Legends.pdf (https://hereford.org/static/files/0708_Legends.pdf)


https://books.google.com/books?id=PNFBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=anxiety+4th+pedigree&source=bl&ots=hm7wREUZMt&sig=ACfU3U1rH_QbQ0Im6dXWg3eBWPGRbFbFsQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu-qTWzanmAhV1LH0KHdBtCVEQ6AEwDHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=anxiety%204th%20pedigree&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=PNFBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=anxiety+4th+pedigree&source=bl&ots=hm7wREUZMt&sig=ACfU3U1rH_QbQ0Im6dXWg3eBWPGRbFbFsQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu-qTWzanmAhV1LH0KHdBtCVEQ6AEwDHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=anxiety%204th%20pedigree&f=false)




http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C5B5A202F2722 (http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C5B5A202F2722)


and down through the line of outstanding bulls

Title: !
Post by: Duncraggan on December 10, 2019, 02:49:04 PM

Oh absolutely.  Nothing in the pedigree to suggest otherwise  ::)


SB PROUD VENTURE BW EPD 5.4
CF TRUMP 3.8
JSF TOP HAND 4.6
SPRYS ALL GOLD 3.8
SPRYS AUSSIE GOLD 6.3
BYLAND GOLD PLATED 5.1
I bought the South African semen rights and 500 doses of Spry's All Gold D052 in about 2009.
Although the BW's are fairly high, the calves come easily. I calve at 30 and 36 months only, due to the environment. He has been used extensively over heifers here.
With that kind of growth there will clearly be higher BW's. They certainly haven't shown coarseness through the shoulders though, which I feel is a bigger indicator of calving issues!
I have had trouble when linebreeding progeny with a common link on both the top and the bottom of the pedigree to a bull I purchased in 2003 to improve the bone in my herd. I had some 56kg (123lbs) calves, one where I lost the heifer, one where there was a prolapse on a second calf cow, and another from a mature cow that calved with no problem.
I now know to avoid that genetic combination!
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: -XBAR- on December 10, 2019, 03:26:09 PM
validation from independent sources is always a plus.

slight knock.  the narrative always seems to be any negative is actually a positive at the opposite end of the spectrum.

this just isn't possible.

this type of narrative actually is not a positive because it's just so predictable and rarely comes with independent sources of verification.

the 10 standard deviation to the positive narrative is a little UNBELIEVABLY tiresome.

if the narrative were true even at a marginal level, shorthorn would register more than angus and dominate.




JIT frames many things that could be a negative as an extreme edge case to the positive.

one could easily look back at many posts.

not a big knock, but sort of a broken record.

take the hooves observation.  everyone has anecdotal evidence they would like dark hooves and they are the greatest thing since whatever and never crack except used in an argument, oh, i had a dark hoofed bull that cracked, but this light hoofed bull has never had a problem implying they never will except that when they do, it's some sort of outlier the other way with explanation xyz.

birth weights are another, paraphrasing.  "never had a problem and sold infinite embryo's all over the world no problem, but someone has a problem and it's not a problem"

for some people, it's a little tiring INSULTING to keep hearing the same pitch over and over.


the blowback to that sales pitch is why this thread is named what it is.

Everyone knows Knabe is the smartest person in the room but this here is just genius level greatness. 
Title: Re: !
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 10, 2019, 07:06:10 PM

Oh absolutely.  Nothing in the pedigree to suggest otherwise  ::)


SB PROUD VENTURE BW EPD 5.4
CF TRUMP 3.8
JSF TOP HAND 4.6
SPRYS ALL GOLD 3.8
SPRYS AUSSIE GOLD 6.3
BYLAND GOLD PLATED 5.1
I bought the South African semen rights and 500 doses of Spry's All Gold D052 in about 2009.
Although the BW's are fairly high, the calves come easily. I calve at 30 and 36 months only, due to the environment. He has been used extensively over heifers here.
With that kind of growth there will clearly be higher BW's. They certainly haven't shown coarseness through the shoulders though, which I feel is a bigger indicator of calving issues!
I have had trouble when linebreeding progeny with a common link on both the top and the bottom of the pedigree to a bull I purchased in 2003 to improve the bone in my herd. I had some 56kg (123lbs) calves, one where I lost the heifer, one where there was a prolapse on a second calf cow, and another from a mature cow that calved with no problem.
I now know to avoid that genetic combination!//// I agree especially on the shape of the calves RE Calving ease bWS etc. the point I was trying to make-Is that list posted with the EPDS is made up entirely (other than Trump) of performance breeders from back in the day WHO DOCUMENTED THIER CATTLE HONESTLY. THATS WHY THE EPDS on BWS may be higher-But like you said that didnt necessarily make them cow killers and they worked through the years to improve BWS and not lose Growth Today-alot of that blood remains effective as part of the functional cattle that have evolved O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on December 11, 2019, 06:18:51 AM
Agree with Knabe.
Linebreeding or inbreeding is not the matter. If you choose a good genetics and know what it have in background. Inbreeding is an interesting tool. Just need to know use it.
By the way, so many claimed outcross genetics that will introduce genetics defects, high BW, narrow butts (we raise a beef breed!!), thin ugly necks, coffin heads, leggy animals, makes inbreeding the lesser problem for the breed.
I will ever use linebreeding to use claimed great sires that will bring me a pandora box on her calves.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on December 11, 2019, 04:18:33 PM
If you are trying to sell something....all you need is a picture. It doesn't matter if it is a painted portrait or a photoshopped deal. There is always someone out there with more money than brains. The average lifespan of the purebred herd is 5 years...Ö..these are the people who are vulnerable. These are the people merchandizers target.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 11, 2019, 05:19:52 PM
Ryan Wernicke is neither rich nor new at all-Hes been in these cattle all of his life-and Dale was as sharp as they come.Hes seen the calf-seen him walk-Says hes the real deal,walks like an Egyptian one of the best hes ever seen and the stall pic is just that. Id like to see a little better heal versus dew claw on him-which makes him appear a little small footed: Ryan says he is not small footed- good enough for me-The big U S show boppers seem to wax and wane dependent upon how many lemmings are left after they"ve tried to either turn the heifers into cows or get even 10% of their investment back.I dont see a whole lot of fluffy puff in the 40 below 0 frozen snow sales that most of the JIT and the other Canadian cattle are pictured in . A lot of the time they arent even clipped and are stained from laying in the bedding And given the number of commercial buyers who keep showing back up: I dont buy the fake news - O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on December 12, 2019, 07:52:33 PM
You have dropped names...Ö.that's good....tactical......But I live west of the Missouri river......out here in fly over country.....so your effort is lost on me. Bahahahah
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: E6 Durhams on December 12, 2019, 10:54:35 PM
Iíd take what Mark is saying as good for me. As much as it may pain me to say it, JIT Bree a good one.  Good cattle are good cattle. I appreciate people who call it like they see it.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 13, 2019, 05:58:20 PM
Dont hate me cuz Im beautiful LOL  The calf is not absolute just like everything else- but he checks quite a few boxes  O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 13, 2019, 08:50:37 PM
You have dropped names...Ö.that's good....tactical......But I live west of the Missouri river......out here in fly over country.....so your effort is lost on me. Bahahahah///// YOU TAWKIN BOUT THEM THINGS THAT MAKE NOISE AND FLY? SWAMP GAS/// IF PIGS HAD WINGS THEY COULD FLY TOO Maybe you could bring civilization to the land of outdoor plumbing-In West Va and SouthWest Va BUT IT WOULD  BE WISE TO CARRY A GUN FLAT LANDER O0
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: aj on December 18, 2019, 06:36:29 PM
Stereotyping......it's what's for dinner.
Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: knabe on December 19, 2019, 03:49:33 PM
in out grouping is done by all species.


denying it has merit invites demographic elimination

Title: Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 19, 2019, 05:24:02 PM
in out grouping is done by all species.


denying it has merit invites demographic elimination    /// Well put-what we address here by PROSPECTUS is the interaction between a group of APPALACIAN APES and an academic cowboy from an area 8 miles +-from a lesser known Wallmart in kansas and what could possibly transpire when such a ceature enters their territory