If I could start all over again I would......?

justintime · Dec 9, 2013

caledon101 said:
I think it's our drive to continously improve that sometimes makes us look back and wish we had done this or that differently. Human nature! But it's our eternal optimism that keeps up going. It sure isn't the profit we all make.

Looking back I learned that there are no 'bad" breeds of cattle. They are all different and each breed works better in some environments than others. Every breed has attributes and qualities regardless of their popularity or lack thereof. We all think we have the best breed but the huge diversity of breeds and genetics is something should all celebrate.

I do recall asking a highly respected and knowledgable cattleman a direct question about 30 years ago while visiting his ranch. He was the producer of the original Angus bull QAS Traveller.
I asked him what he liked the most about the purebred cattle business. He said "the people".
I then asked him what he liked the least about the purebred cattle business.
He said "SOME people".
Never forgot that.

I agree with the comment about people in this business. I have said for years, that there are some people in the cattle business that certainly make a person like cows better. This is definitely a " people business" as much as it is just the " cattle business". Just like any other business in the town where you live, the ones that do the most business and the best business are the ones that treat you like you are important and that offer a good product with reasonable price and service. In most cases people are willing to pay extra when they like a person and/or think they are getting service with their purchase. It is no different than any other business.

Many years ago, Rodney James from Transcon Livestock, ( one of the longest running and most successful sales management firms in Canada) told me that it was so important to make herd visits. He also gave me this advice. He said that it was not important how long you stayed on each visit, but that you actually stopped when going by. He also said that ... even if the herd is one of the poorest you have ever seen, find one that is slightly better and ask the owner to price her. He said that you don't have to buy the animal, but you will make the owner feel great and this will pay major dividends in future years. I have thought about this many time... and I think he is right!

caledon101 · Dec 9, 2013

JIT....I knew Rodney very well. He was respected on the auction block because everyone understood when he started his speech and pushed hard for another bid he was not only trying to get more money for the consignor; he was also letting the crowd know they were under valuing the animal. He was certainly one of the best "color commentators" in the business. And, he had a tremendous knowledge of the history of importation. He documented it in great detail with the help of Ted Pritchard the editor/owner of Simmental Country at that time.
Lots of people don't realize the importance of Rodney James during that exciting time in the 60's and the work he did with the Charolais breed also. He was right in the middle of it all.
A man with tremendous interpersonal skills.

oakview · Dec 9, 2013

When I was younger, I wished for all sorts of things. There were times I wished I had more money to spend so we could have started nearer the top instead of from scratch. I learned more and appreciated it more the way it was. There were times I wished I had a crew back in the barn to prepare the cattle for the show ring and all I had to do was stand in the ring with the show stick, waiting for someone to bring the cattle to me. As it was, I never missed a class. The whole family chipped in and we made it. When the time came, the kids jumped in and helped fit their own calves. Funny how their shirt was always a little soiled when they entered the ring, too. There were times I wished I could have devoted my entire day to preparing the cattle for the upcoming show or sale. Instead, there were up to 100 cow/calf pairs to take care of, 100 or so sows and maybe 1,000 head of hogs to grind feed for. There were beans to walk, rocks to pick up, fence to fix, ball games to play in, watch, or teams to coach. Never a dull moment. I still have people tell me that some time I just need to sit and relax. They don't know that I do what I do to relax. One thing I do wish, though, is that I had the time, and money, to go to sales and buy an animal from all the good people with good cattle I've met over the years. Sometimes I think people don't realize that there are some very useful cattle, in every price range, in every sale that will fit in their herd. We need to support each other when we can. We've all made bad, maybe even stupid choices. We all seem to remember them. It may be harder to recall the good ones, but always remember that you must have made a few good choices to end up where you are!

caledon101 · Dec 10, 2013

One thing that really frustrated me; and still does to this day, is that some of the most decent, honest and kind people we all know as fellow breeders have seed stock that you simply can't justify buying. It's just not compatible with the quality you need in your program etc.

And conversely, some of the worst characters seem to have the best genetics and animals. The "win at all cost" arrogant and egotistical people who exude entitlement at every turn.
What an unfortunate dichotomy.

When you find good people with good cattle it certainly makes the decision to buy much easier that's for sure.

RyanChandler · Dec 10, 2013

caledon101 said:
As progressive, forward moving producers we all focus on the future of course. But, I do think it would be very interesting to hear what each of us would do differently if we had the opportunity to "do it all over again".
Potential new breeders could definitely learn from your collective experience and advice.

Would you invest in the same breed? Absolutely!

Would you have selected different foundation stock? If so, why? Both yes and no. I have some that I purchased because they were a good deal price wise and others that I've purchased that I feel define the direction I'm moving in. I started out buying groups of heifers 5-10 at a time and -across the board- only about half have made the cut. But for the most part, my primary recommendation would be to start w/ the most expensive cattle you can afford. Implicit here is that value accompanies the price. I financed all my initially purchases WHICH I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST. This gave me access to a lump sum of cash that I would have otherwise not have had the opportunity to enter the market w/o. My initial goal was to acquire a "set #" of registered cattle that I could then pay for, and leverage against a ranch. I figured if I could get a 100 registered cows paid for, I could let them ride against a pretty comfortable land note. Cows can pay for land- they can't pay for themselves and land (at the same time). This pursuit of a "set #" caused me to make some purchasing decisions that weren't in the best interest of the direction I wanted my cow herd to go in. That being said, I finally gave in and cut my loses - salebarned the ones that didn't assist my long term goals and am now moving forward. It's tough to take a 2 grand hit at the salebarn but it sure brings a smile to my face the next time I'm in the pasture and I don't have to look at that sorry bag of bones anymore. Outside of ET work, I will go against the grain here and say that purchasing open heifers is the only way to go. While buying breds might get the cash revolving, its been my personal experience that the quality of cattle being sold as bred heifers/cows is CONSIDERABLY lower than the quality being offered as weaned calves. True there is greater risk buying heifers- like w/ my experience of about 50% turning out how you want them- but I feel the reward is much greater.

Perhaps you would have invested in commercial livestock instead of purebred....or vice versa?
No way! Unless you have thousands of acres and can capitalize from economies of scale with commercial cattle, there is considerably more money to be made in purebreds. Not to mention- I prefer the finer things

Maybe you would have by-passed livestock production all together and invested your money and time in crop production instead?
Good god no! My sole interest in agriculture begins and ends w/ cattle.

I am presently in the unique process of "doing it all over again". I will certainly share some details on that along with my own observations but look forward to others posting their thoughts as well.

RyanChandler · Dec 10, 2013

caledon101 said:
One thing that really frustrated me; and still does to this day, is that some of the most decent, honest and kind people we all know as fellow breeders have seed stock that you simply can't justify buying. It's just not compatible with the quality you need in your program etc.

And conversely, some of the worst characters seem to have the best genetics and animals. The "win at all cost" arrogant and egotistical people who exude entitlement at every turn.
What an unfortunate dichotomy.

When you find good people with good cattle it certainly makes the decision to buy much easier that's for sure.

Easy going people are often the most complacent. That would account for their average at best cattle IMO.

But as far as doing business, personally, I could care less if you rape, rob, or pillage- If you feel you have some of the better non trump infused shorthorns- I feel like we can come to a mutual understanding

BTDT · Dec 10, 2013

caledon101 said:
One thing that really frustrated me; and still does to this day, is that some of the most decent, honest and kind people we all know as fellow breeders have seed stock that you simply can't justify buying. It's just not compatible with the quality you need in your program etc.

And conversely, some of the worst characters seem to have the best genetics and animals. The "win at all cost" arrogant and egotistical people who exude entitlement at every turn.
What an unfortunate dichotomy.

When you find good people with good cattle it certainly makes the decision to buy much easier that's for sure.

Do the people with the "good cattle" REALLY have good cattle, or are you being influenced by their "success"? Or maybe the livestock is "good" because they are not "purebred" but really crossbred with papers? Maybe mis-aged therefore have more "performance"?
I know of a breeder or two that is VERY successful in the show ring, but can't seem to get that ol' DNA to match the livestock. Darn DNA!

XBar, I am sorry you feel you have to sell your morals and ethics just to purchase cattle. I do not care how "great" someone's cattle is, if they are not ethical or moral by my standards, I will absolutely REFUSE to do business with them. Period. It is not that complicated or difficult.
I am really disappointed you said you would do business with someone who "rape, rob, or pillage". In my opinion, by doing business with individuals that "rape, rob, or pillage" you are condoning that behavior by financing it. I am not sure who to feel sorrier for, you or society.

RyanChandler · Dec 11, 2013

BTDT said:
caledon101 said:

One thing that really frustrated me; and still does to this day, is that some of the most decent, honest and kind people we all know as fellow breeders have seed stock that you simply can't justify buying. It's just not compatible with the quality you need in your program etc.

And conversely, some of the worst characters seem to have the best genetics and animals. The "win at all cost" arrogant and egotistical people who exude entitlement at every turn.
What an unfortunate dichotomy.

When you find good people with good cattle it certainly makes the decision to buy much easier that's for sure.

Click to expand...

Do the people with the "good cattle" REALLY have good cattle, or are you being influenced by their "success"? Or maybe the livestock is "good" because they are not "purebred" but really crossbred with papers? Maybe mis-aged therefore have more "performance"?
I know of a breeder or two that is VERY successful in the show ring, but can't seem to get that ol' DNA to match the livestock. Darn DNA!

XBar, I am sorry you feel you have to sell your morals and ethics just to purchase cattle. I do not care how "great" someone's cattle is, if they are not ethical or moral by my standards, I will absolutely REFUSE to do business with them. Period. It is not that complicated or difficult.
I am really disappointed you said you would do business with someone who "rape, rob, or pillage". In my opinion, by doing business with individuals that "rape, rob, or pillage" you are condoning that behavior by financing it. I am not sure who to feel sorrier for, you or society.

Not taking a random seller's personal life into consideration when purchasing cattle has nothing to do my moral or ethical standard. I'm looking for the best cattle - who has them or how that individual lives his/her life is secondary. I think it's best to remove sentiment from the equation when purchasing anything as it disconnects you from what you really want. You may feel as if you're takin the moral high road, but in reality, the only outcome your refusal leaves you with is inferior cattle.

BadgerFan · Dec 11, 2013

oakview said:
When I was younger, I wished for all sorts of things. There were times I wished I had more money to spend so we could have started nearer the top instead of from scratch. I learned more and appreciated it more the way it was. There were times I wished I had a crew back in the barn to prepare the cattle for the show ring and all I had to do was stand in the ring with the show stick, waiting for someone to bring the cattle to me. As it was, I never missed a class. The whole family chipped in and we made it. When the time came, the kids jumped in and helped fit their own calves. Funny how their shirt was always a little soiled when they entered the ring, too. There were times I wished I could have devoted my entire day to preparing the cattle for the upcoming show or sale. Instead, there were up to 100 cow/calf pairs to take care of, 100 or so sows and maybe 1,000 head of hogs to grind feed for. There were beans to walk, rocks to pick up, fence to fix, ball games to play in, watch, or teams to coach. Never a dull moment. I still have people tell me that some time I just need to sit and relax. They don't know that I do what I do to relax. One thing I do wish, though, is that I had the time, and money, to go to sales and buy an animal from all the good people with good cattle I've met over the years. Sometimes I think people don't realize that there are some very useful cattle, in every price range, in every sale that will fit in their herd. We need to support each other when we can. We've all made bad, maybe even stupid choices. We all seem to remember them. It may be harder to recall the good ones, but always remember that you must have made a few good choices to end up where you are!

Here's the best quote I've read on this site in a long time.

caledon101 · Dec 11, 2013

Badgerfan.....couldn't agree more. Oakview is precisely the kind of person you really want to do business with if he can meet your needs.
XBAR has his own opinions and they are controversial.
However, I personally think it is essential to share the same core values as the people you choose to partner with. And the key word is "partner".
When I spend a considerable sum to purchase a pedigreed animal I want to know the brand I am associating myself with is respected and trusted within my industry. I don't want MY customers questioning the validity or accuracy of the pedigree's, birth weights or birth dates of the foundation product I have chosen to build my own brand with.

RyanChandler · Dec 11, 2013

caledon101 said:
Badgerfan.....couldn't agree more. Oakview is precisely the kind of person you really want to do business with if he can meet your needs.
XBAR has his own opinions and they are controversial.
However, I personally think it is essential to share the same core values as the people you choose to partner with. And the key word is "partner".
When I spend a considerable sum to purchase a pedigreed animal I want to know the brand I am associating myself with is respected and trusted within my industry. I don't want MY customers questioning the validity or accuracy of the pedigree's, birth weights or birth dates of the foundation product I have chosen to build my own brand with.

How do you form the conclusion that all those who don't share the same 'core values' as you are somehow untrustworthy? How arrogant.

caledon101 · Dec 11, 2013

XBAR....I didn't "form THE conclusion". I expressed my personal opinion. Having a preference to do business with individuals, organizations or corporate entities that possess compatible core values isn't arrogant or judgemental. It's SMART.
I created this thread so as to engage many of the diverse cattle producers who choose to participate on this Board.
The contributions thus far have been wonderful and I trust helpful to any potential new investor. Some great input from various thoughtful and experienced people.
I was actually waiting for you to jump in and turn a very positive, polite and respectful exchange of thoughts into a public forum to insult. You're right on time.

RyanChandler · Dec 11, 2013

The only insult in this entire topic is from BTDT. In your prior stated opinion, you absolutely suggest that those who don't share your core values are untrustworthy. It's my opinion that this is an arrogant position to hold and one that will cost you- like pride usually does- a lot of money. My bad for getting carried away, I seem to forget that all you speak in is hypotheticals-- as you have no skin the game.

knabe · Dec 11, 2013

I was thinking you were describing yourself to a tee.

The irony is deafening.

Chap · Dec 11, 2013

I am pleased with the direction our program has taken and feel blessed to have met some great folks along the journey. I wouldn't change that at all. the struggle from start up is what makes you appreciate where you have gone and the direction you are headed. I absolutely love to walk into the cow herd these days and think about how far they have come since the beginning with a mongrelized group of crossbred, commercial oriented cows. The regrets are mostly based on the fact that as a young, cattle enthusiast with limited funds and no equipment, I had to sell some of those early heifer calves from our first few years of AI breeding. We got along well selling them and got to a financial situation where we could buy some better cows, but I continually find that we are happiest with the stock that we raise ourselves. We buy a couple every year, but now try to find something we don't have or are better than we are raising.
Start with less than you think you need, stay financially independent, focus on quality, be especially critical of structure, tailheads, attitude and udder quality. Those things will create more headaches than you want to deal with, especially as you get older. Buy semen from reputable sources, with quality standards. Be careful not to get sucked into the ET game until you are ready and have a proven producer.

caledon101 · Dec 11, 2013

Just thinking here....one thing I would definitely do differently is ensure that I have semen tested before using it for ET purposes.

caledon101 · Dec 11, 2013

Chap....agree totally. Making sure we invest in the right females for ET is so important. I can still hear Rodney James from the block saying "more money is made or lost in ET than any other aspect of the purebred industry". I do believe he was very correct.

I won't flush a female unless I am prepared to implant the resultant eggs for internal additions to the program or, unless I have clients ready and waiting to buy them from us.
I do wonder how many embryos sit in storage both private and corporate that will never be used? Same thing with semen; I really try to limit my purchases to only what I need and will use up within a reasonable time period. Yes, sometimes if you store semen long enough you are fortunate enough to see it become very valuable. Most of time the opposite happens I think.

caledon101 · Dec 11, 2013

XBAR....against my better judgement......It would appear we agree on something. Yes, people who are known to be dishonest and exhibit all of the clinical signs, are indeed untrustworthy.

As for having no skin in the game; my partner and I have travelled thousands of miles since the summer and have invested just under 70K in the past 100 days on seedstock for our modest re-start. 34K USD alone on December 1st for a heifer calf.

Not sure why you are such an angry guy but directing it at others on these Boards isn't the solution. JMO

RyanChandler · Dec 11, 2013

caledon101 said:
XBAR....against my better judgement......It would appear we agree on something. Yes, people who are known to be dishonest and exhibit all of the clinical signs, are indeed untrustworthy.

As for having no skin in the game; my partner and I have travelled thousands of miles since the summer and have invested just under 70K in the past 100 days on seedstock for our modest re-start. 34K USD alone on December 1st for a heifer calf.

Not sure why you are such an angry guy but directing it at others on these Boards isn't the solution. JMO

Your dishonest claims about the white Liar (lol) bull being heifer safe puts you in the untrustworthy category then. Deceptive marketing practices anger me.

If I had it to do over again, I would never tell a sale rep how much I was willing to pay for an animal. That would be my #1 advice- never let someone you don't know bid for you. The biggest mistake you can make in this industry is to ASSUME that just because someone 'looks like you, walks and talks like you, hates Obama like you, and goes to the same 'type' Church as you' that they're good, HONEST people!

knabe · Dec 11, 2013

Hi, i'm from the government and i'm here to help is pretty much a similar scenario. Moderation seems to be a vice anymore.

If I could start all over again I would......?

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