Is milk a maternal trait?

Since I am on the mafia's hit list any way...I read kits last news letter. Is milk a maternal growth trait or a growth trait? In the desert I think high milk is a growth trait. In Arkansas where it rains milk may be a maternal trait. Is there any data that proves hard keeping cows don't breed back? I would think in some breeds this may be the case. But...if a hard keeping cow breeds back after milking like crazyis she really a problem...is there any hard data?

Milk is a growth trait period.  bigger frame = more milk.  But there are other factors that will add to milk production. longer necks and narrow frontends but then these are what make dairy cows and poor beef cows hard doing and inefficient.

we get darn near 40 inches of rain a year and our first bull was a Super Dazzler son that was huge and produced BIG daughters.  We had all the grass and hay you could want and they still got thin. Only his most balanced and smaller framed daughters were the ones that lasted to produce calves up or past 10... you are kidding yourself if you think its Ok for cows to be done at 8 or 9. 

I am sure there is lots of research done on this topic, and I know there has been quite a few studies done in numerous research facilities over the years. My graduate thesis in college was " The Economic Importance of Beef Cow Size in Relation to Reproductive Performance". While this was not entirely regarding milk production, it certainly was a part of the many research papers I had to review to complete this paper. I  did this back in the dark ages, before many on SP were even born, so I am sure there is much more that has been done since then.

My definition of what a great milking cow is, has changed over the years, and a few dry years have assisted me in coming up with thoughts on this. In my world , a great milking cow, is not the cow that produces the most milk. I am a very strong believer that milk like all other traits,( and virtually everything else in our lives,) is best in optimum amounts. Milk EPDs, vary in most breeds, and I see some breeds that put way too much emphasis on high milk than I think is desirable. I have friends who raise Angus cows that have piled so many high milk genetics on top of each other than they have developed thin skinned, hard doing cows that milk great, raise a big calf, come in from pasture and require additional supplement to get them back in shape before they calve again. This makes little sense to me. I see some breeders weaning their calves earlier every year so the cows can gain some flesh before winter sets in. I guess this makes more sense than having to sort the thin cows off and feed them during the winter, but it still does not seem to be the way things are supposed to work. The cows should work for us, rather than us just work for the cows.

I think the Shorthorn breed has had way too many cows of this type, and I do think there is a trend to move away from this... to which I say, it is about time! I honestly believe the number of cows like this that come in open each year, is higher than from cows that milk less and still raise a strong calf. Of course, environment conditions will dictate how much milk you can tolerate in your cows. My views differ from many on here in regards to a cows frame size and her ability to stay in condition, milk well, and calve every year. I have seen as many small framed cows that were frail, bone racks , that had no ability to stay in condition as I have seen large framed cows that do the same. There are exceptions to every rule, and for that reason, I do not agree that we can put all females of certain frame in the same basket, when we are talking about efficiency, and ability to flesh, and produce a valuable calf each year. It almost always comes down to Dollars produced compared to dollars invested.

In the Shorthorn  breed, negative milk EPDs do not scare me in using a herd bull. I would probably be careful not to stack negative milk genetics, but an occasional lower milk EPD usually works well in our conditions. Getting back to your original question.... I think a strong argument could be made for either milk being a maternal growth or a straight growth trait, again partially dependent on what conditions your cattle work in. Where I am, I think I would consider milk as being a maternal growth trait rather than just a growth trait. But then, we may all have slightly different definitions to what these terms mean.

In the same vein, I have often thought that the femininity is the most misused and misunderstood word in the beef business. Many breeders completely confuse femininity with fraility. What is a good definition of a feminine cow? Is it a smoooth fronted, angular shaped female, that is goose necked and with little to no brisket? Or is a feminine cow , simply a cow that consistently brings in a calf that weighs 60% of her body weight, while she stays in good condition and regularly calves within a 12 month window for several years without missing? Does femininity have more to do with a females production than it does her phenotype?  Again, the definition may differ slightly as to what conditions your cows have to perform in.... but I think it is good food for thought.

sjc.... I have never seen any research that indicates that bigger frame = more milk.There may be some trends like this in dairy cows, I am not sure.  I have at least one cow here that certainly didn't get the memo if this is the case. I have a cow that I purchased a few years ago, that is definitely the biggest cow in my herd, and is in the biggest 3 or 4 I ever owned, and she is without any doubt the poorest milking cow in the herd. Why does she stay here? Simply because she has enough milk to wean a calf and they simply explode after weaning, and they have all been very saleable. I have actually sold a couple of her calves to people  because they know she does not milk great. This cow also did not see the memo about the long neck deal. She is extremely long necked , yet each year I wonder if she will feed her calf when she calves. She stays in great shape, and like I said, she does a decent job, not a great job on her calf. If she is on poor pasture her calf resembles an Indian dog in the fall. I don't think we can generalize about frame size and milking ability. I think there may be certain bloodlines in any breed where this general statement may be closer to true, but I can see no evidence over an entire breed.

We have run Shorthorn cows here forever ( since 1903) and have also had breeding herds of Maines, Horned Hereford, Simmental,Angus and Charolais, as well as some smaller groups of Chis,limos, and Blondes . We dispersed all of these over the years ( other than the Shorthorns) and the last to go were over 100 purebred Charolais cows 5 1/2 years ago. If I were to sort these cows from biggest to smallest frame, I know that I would not have ranked them even close to their milking ability. It would not have been even close to being ranked by milking ability.  Some of my smallest Charolais cows had the highest milk EPDs, and actually milked way too much for our conditions. I probably shipped out more small framed cows that milked to much than I ever did a big framed cow that milked too much.

the research was done by Dr Jan Bonsma.


There are not many times that the bovine body type can and does contradict mother nature.....

Well, I have heard Bonsma on two occasions, and while it was several years ago, I do not recall him saying that bigger framed cows milk more. If this is true, is this across all breeds. My experience with Charolais cattle would make me almost think it was the opposite. The bigger the cow, the bigger the creep feeder had to be to raise a decent calf. I also had some huge Hereford cows that basically only kept their calf company for most of the summer. My experience with the Herefords was similar to that with the Charolais, that being the moderate framed cows raised the biggest calves. I have a bunch of Bonsma articles here, so i am going to have to see if I can find where he states that bigger cows = more milk.

By the way, I happen to agree with much of what Bonsma has to say on many things, however, some modern beef researchers are now claiming that he was a bit off base on some things. I am not sure of this myself, just saying what I have heard and read.

I will say that in our limi cows, bigger cows seem to be harder to breed back, and milk less than the more moderate framed cows. We have been raising limousin cattle since 1984, and we have seen this trend over and over. I have not seen the study about bigger cows giving more milk, but its never worked in our herd. I have culled way to many big cows because they were hard to breed back and took a HUGE creep feeder to get a calf like my moderate cows.
Just my observations.
Cody

cows that don't milk aren't any good either

I don't have an answer to your question, but I can tell you at my house bigger frame DOES NOT = more milk!

I have had big cows that only made good shade for their calves and I have had small cows that wouldn't milk enough for the barn cat to survive on. What I have experienced is that the daughters of good milking cows are likely to do the same if their sire has any maternal traits whatso ever. Cows that don't milk are useless and cows that milk too much are not good either as they are hard to breed back. Moderation, moderation, moderation. RW

Anything over average milk...isn't it overkill?