Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: aj on August 14, 2008, 12:39:44 PM

Title: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: aj on August 14, 2008, 12:39:44 PM
Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect?I can think of breeds that do have defects. Angus,Red Angus,Shorthorn,Simmental, Limousin sp, holstein on and on.I know the shorthorn and maines have been hammered hard on this site. Do other breeds deserve scrutiny also and how deep is say marble bone, rat tail, mule foot, th and pha. I expect th to show up in limi's,gelbvievh and other breeds because of funny stuff with papers. I would think that there would be cattle out there with dwarfism in there makeup from the dwarfism of the Herfords way back when.I'm sure th will make its way to the commercial cowherds eventually also.I think that Shorthorn people and Maine people have a good concept of how the defect deal works. I'm not sure people of other breeds are aware of how the genetic defect deal can play out. From that standpoint at least the club calf people have a grasp of their situation.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: justintime on August 14, 2008, 01:20:49 PM
The Angus breed is dealing with a dwarfism breed right now.  Defects are a normal occurrence in any population. A prominent Angus breeder recently told me that if the Angus breed were to eradicate the defect lines in the breed, it would have to eliminate a couple of the most popular bllodlines in the breed. It is interesting to watch how various breeds deal with defects. Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental and probably some others have had defect issues for many years, yet they are seldom heard of. I guess it is because of the size of these breeds, and because of this it is not as big an issue.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: DL on August 14, 2008, 04:30:50 PM
aj - I knew from the title of the post it was yours!  Does your email work? Should I send you the article?

Mutations are everywhere (good t-shirt logo). As JIT says the Angus are "dealing with" the long nosed dwarf, but they also have fawn calf and a type of arthrogoposis on the horizon. Red Angus marble bone, which has also been seen in Angus, Holstein, and Simmental. Of course we have TH and PHA - in a variety of breeds with a variety of mutations.  Dwarfism of various types  ( the Angus, Brown Swiss, Danish Red, Dexter, Hereford, Holstein, Japanese Brown Cattle, and Shorthorns) has been reported in most mammals.  Brachyspina syndrome  and complex vertebral malformation (Holstein), idiopathic epilepsy and inherited congenital myoclonus (Herefords), mulefoot (aka syndactly  Holsteins), monkey mouth  and the list could go on and on.

I think JIT is spot on - it is interesting to see how the various breeds and breeders deal with defects - there are only 7 "new"  long-nosed dwarfs carriers related to the 7D7 bull listed on the AAA website - and yet the history of the long nosed dwarf goes way back. They want us to believe that this is  a point mutation without testing (or releasing results of tests) of sire and dam??

Increased use of AI and ET lead to rapid genetic improvements as well as proliferation of defects. Defects that cause calves to be born deformed or that are lethal at term are more likely to be identified than those causing abortion. Some like the long nosed dwarf may be thought of as small but "normal" until you get a cluster. Eyes in the sand have a hard time seeing defects. While other causes need to be ruled out (ie BVDV especially but also some toxins) this is often a convenient way to ignore the potential genetic implications.  Power, money, size of the breed, politics  all play a roll in how defects are handled.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: harley on August 14, 2008, 04:38:47 PM
I'm curious as to what genetic defects are associated with charolais cattle.  Been involved with charolais for 30 years and in thinking back, don't ever remember anything that would be classified as a genetic defect.  Not saying there aren't any, just must not have been in the bloodlines we've used.  The only thing I've seen is some rat tail calves out of charolais cross genetics, never seen one out of purebreds.  Have I just been lucky?
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: knabe on August 14, 2008, 05:29:00 PM
charolais

Junctional epidermolysis bullosa
some kind of sperm defect
arthrogryposis-cleft palate (chromosome translocation)
Ocular coloboma
Alopecia Anemia
double muscling

probably others
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: garybob on August 14, 2008, 05:58:58 PM
Will there ever be an atricle in any major industry publication ( Drovers, BEEF, etc) announcing these defects , found in any of the 6 most-popular breeds, to the Cow-calf Industry?

Nope!

GB
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: fluffer on August 14, 2008, 07:08:46 PM
Well, I have been breeding Gelbviehs for about 12 years and I don't know of a genetic defect they carry.  Some of you may consider the Gelbvieh to be a defect all its own  ;)


Fluffer
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: itk on August 14, 2008, 07:55:18 PM
Not all defects are bad. The red gene in angus is a defect yet it gave us a whole new breed. Also the polled gene is defect yet it has helped out numerous breeds. 
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: Olson Family Shorthorns on August 14, 2008, 08:33:12 PM
Not all defects are bad. The red gene in angus is a defect yet it gave us a whole new breed. Also the polled gene is defect yet it has helped out numerous breeds. 

I thought that too, but I've decided that those are beneficial mutations. I figure if it's a good mutation, it's evolution; if it's bad, it's a defect.  I'm perfectly content to believe that, but I'm probably wrong.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: TJ on August 14, 2008, 09:42:13 PM
The Angus breed is dealing with a dwarfism breed right now.  Defects are a normal occurrence in any population. A prominent Angus breeder recently told me that if the Angus breed were to eradicate the defect lines in the breed, it would have to eliminate a couple of the most popular bllodlines in the breed. It is interesting to watch how various breeds deal with defects. Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental and probably some others have had defect issues for many years, yet they are seldom heard of. I guess it is because of the size of these breeds, and because of this it is not as big an issue.

It's pretty interesting that Angus have a dwarfism gene, but the Lowline Angus do not have that gene.    Don't know how the Australians were fortunate enough to get defect free lines, but they were. 
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: knabe on August 14, 2008, 09:50:17 PM
The Angus breed is dealing with a dwarfism breed right now.  Defects are a normal occurrence in any population. A prominent Angus breeder recently told me that if the Angus breed were to eradicate the defect lines in the breed, it would have to eliminate a couple of the most popular bllodlines in the breed. It is interesting to watch how various breeds deal with defects. Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental and probably some others have had defect issues for many years, yet they are seldom heard of. I guess it is because of the size of these breeds, and because of this it is not as big an issue.

It's pretty interesting that Angus have a dwarfism gene, but the Lowline Angus do not have that gene.    Don't know how the Australians were fortunate enough to get defect free lines, but they were. 

linebreeding and sire testing in the beginning, and essentially closed herd status afterward?
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: TJ on August 15, 2008, 04:17:02 AM
The Angus breed is dealing with a dwarfism breed right now.  Defects are a normal occurrence in any population. A prominent Angus breeder recently told me that if the Angus breed were to eradicate the defect lines in the breed, it would have to eliminate a couple of the most popular bllodlines in the breed. It is interesting to watch how various breeds deal with defects. Angus, Hereford, Charolais and Simmental and probably some others have had defect issues for many years, yet they are seldom heard of. I guess it is because of the size of these breeds, and because of this it is not as big an issue.

It's pretty interesting that Angus have a dwarfism gene, but the Lowline Angus do not have that gene.    Don't know how the Australians were fortunate enough to get defect free lines, but they were. 

linebreeding and sire testing in the beginning, and essentially closed herd status afterward?

I think that you are correct Knabe... I just typed before I really thought about it.  Yes, they did all those things & if something showed up, I'm sure they culled those animals.  The research center did cull animals pretty hard, especially in the beginning.

IMHO, more breeds should use linebreeding, then culling & then close the herds.   That would eleminate all the bad defects & any mutations that are considered desirable could be retained. 

Now, I am not saying that Lowlines don't have any defects, just none that I am aware of.  But they do not carry the dwarfism gene that is common in Angus cattle & I'm sure that all of the other bad defects were probably bred out by linebreeding & then closing the herd.   
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: cbcfarms on August 15, 2008, 05:07:08 AM
isn't the angus breed one of the largest breeds? i have heard that they have more registration applications than most other breeds do. if they are as large as i think they are, then proportionately they shouldn't be too bad off if they only have one genetic defect. ;)
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: dori36 on August 15, 2008, 12:42:53 PM
From TJ:

<<Now, I am not saying that Lowlines don't have any defects, just none that I am aware of.  But they do not carry the dwarfism gene that is common in Angus cattle & I'm sure that all of the other bad defects were probably bred out by linebreeding & then closing the herd.>>

From what I've read, Trangie over time culled rigidly any cattle that displayed or produced dwarfism.  One caveat, in general, is that we can only claim "clean" status on our fullbloods.   With all the various other breeds used to produce percentage Lowlines, we're surely going to see some of the genetic anomalies cropping up eventually in the percentage cattle. 

There was a push not long ago to allow Lowlines that had been bred up past 15/16 to be registered as fullbloods.  I was and still am squarely NOT in favor of it just because of those little not-so-desirable genes that could be lurking and just waiting to be expressed as the cattle are closely bred.  And, let's face it, all Lowlines are "closely bred" as our genetic base, even in "outcross" programs, just isn't real large. 
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: fluffer on August 15, 2008, 01:36:37 PM
Im not trying to hijack this discussion!  ;D

I read and article yesterday that said that "mini" cattle could be the future of our industry.  #1 for kids as projects, these cattle would requre less feed there for being less expensive for the kids.  #2 for our industry, these cattle will produce more meat in relationship to their size and feed intake when compaired to larger cattle.  That makes them more economical and profitable for the feeder.  My question, however, is do packers discount these cattle for being smaller?

Fluffer
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: knabe on August 15, 2008, 01:57:52 PM
isn't the angus breed one of the largest breeds? i have heard that they have more registration applications than most other breeds do. if they are as large as i think they are, then proportionately they shouldn't be too bad off if they only have one genetic defect. ;)

um, angus have more than one defect.  there is at least two types of dwarfism.  since they are a "larger" breed, they have a disproportionately larger chance of passing on defects. large is as large does.

i sure wish i started with fullbloods, in spite of at least 6 or 7 defects.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: DL on August 15, 2008, 02:04:28 PM
isn't the angus breed one of the largest breeds? i have heard that they have more registration applications than most other breeds do. if they are as large as i think they are, then proportionately they shouldn't be too bad off if they only have one genetic defect. ;)

Yes the Angus have the most registrations and are the largest breed in the US, but they have more than one genetic defect - that depending on your point of view may or may not have been handled in a rational manner. Long nosed dwarf, snorter dwarf, fawn calf syndrome, arthrogoposis, marble bone, and others too obscure or numerous to mention.

IMO a mutation per se is not necessarily a defect - red and polled do not increase morbidity or mortality, are not associated with lethality - you may not like red, but it is not a defect and actually could be considered advantageous in warm climates (so would that make black a defect??? ;)
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: simtal on August 15, 2008, 02:06:17 PM
Im not trying to hijack this discussion!  ;D

I read and article yesterday that said that "mini" cattle could be the future of our industry.  #1 for kids as projects, these cattle would requre less feed there for being less expensive for the kids.  #2 for our industry, these cattle will produce more meat in relationship to their size and feed intake when compaired to larger cattle.  That makes them more economical and profitable for the feeder.  My question, however, is do packers discount these cattle for being smaller?

Fluffer

require less feed? absolutely, more economical? No way jose.
yeah they get discounted, they don't weigh up as much other cattle, nor gain as well or grow as efficiently, mainly due to composition.  If you sell on carcass weight your at a disadvantage, plus your gonna get killed on dressing perecent.  It maybe easier with a big choice-select spread, but when yield counts (lower cattle prices and tighter spread) its different. Granted, there is an ever increasing trend for smaller high quality beef supplies but, you don't see any of these big yards feeding these types.  However that doesn't mean that the cow sector couldn't benefit from some these genetics.  just my two cents.

Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: Rocky Hill on August 15, 2008, 03:35:51 PM
I've seen a dwarf angus heifer at the sale barn before. They ran it through with the bucket calves but you could tell it wasn't a newborn calf. When my dad was young, his neighbor raised registered angus cattle and they had a couple of dwarf calves each year.

My high school ag teacher used to have a dwarf hereford cow but someone shot her during deer season one year. She said that she raised a calf every year.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: fluffer on August 15, 2008, 04:56:06 PM
Im not trying to hijack this discussion!  ;D

I read and article yesterday that said that "mini" cattle could be the future of our industry.  #1 for kids as projects, these cattle would requre less feed there for being less expensive for the kids.  #2 for our industry, these cattle will produce more meat in relationship to their size and feed intake when compaired to larger cattle.  That makes them more economical and profitable for the feeder.  My question, however, is do packers discount these cattle for being smaller?

Fluffer


require less feed? absolutely, more economical? No way jose.
yeah they get discounted, they don't weigh up as much other cattle, nor gain as well or grow as efficiently, mainly due to composition.  If you sell on carcass weight your at a disadvantage, plus your gonna get killed on dressing perecent.  It maybe easier with a big choice-select spread, but when yield counts (lower cattle prices and tighter spread) its different. Granted, there is an ever increasing trend for smaller high quality beef supplies but, you don't see any of these big yards feeding these types.  However that doesn't mean that the cow sector couldn't benefit from some these genetics.  just my two cents.


Here is the web site for that article.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/business/story/123369.html

Fluffer

Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: TJ on August 15, 2008, 05:18:21 PM
Im not trying to hijack this discussion!  ;D

I read and article yesterday that said that "mini" cattle could be the future of our industry.  #1 for kids as projects, these cattle would requre less feed there for being less expensive for the kids.  #2 for our industry, these cattle will produce more meat in relationship to their size and feed intake when compaired to larger cattle.  That makes them more economical and profitable for the feeder.  My question, however, is do packers discount these cattle for being smaller?

Fluffer

require less feed? absolutely, more economical? No way jose.
yeah they get discounted, they don't weigh up as much other cattle, nor gain as well or grow as efficiently, mainly due to composition.  If you sell on carcass weight your at a disadvantage, plus your gonna get killed on dressing perecent.  It maybe easier with a big choice-select spread, but when yield counts (lower cattle prices and tighter spread) its different. Granted, there is an ever increasing trend for smaller high quality beef supplies but, you don't see any of these big yards feeding these types.  However that doesn't mean that the cow sector couldn't benefit from some these genetics.  just my two cents.


simtal, here is some interesting data fro you to look at...  ;)

Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: TJ on August 15, 2008, 05:33:01 PM
In fairness, the data above is from 1/2 blood Lowline sired steers out of commercial heifers, and they are not mini steers, just small steers.   I agree that you can get too small.  Even the majority of grassfed people that I know want 1/2, 5/8 or 3/4 Lowlines.  They don't want anything smaller than a 3/4 blood & sometimes a 3/4 blood is too small.   For a commerical producer a 1/2 or 5/8 Lowline is all that you would probably want, but those genetics are proven to be profitable.

And yes, the article is correct, kids do spend much less money feeding mini's than they do most typical "show" animals.  But, you can get the same benefits from a 1/2 blood Lowline as you can with the minis, due to their "easy doing ability".   And as the data proves, you can still get a 1/2 blood Lowline steer to finish up in the 1,100-1,275 lb. range & you can get them to that weight cheaper.  1,100 - 1,275 lb. finishing weights are not too minature, but when you see your final feed bill you will think that you were feeding miniatures. 
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: knabe on August 15, 2008, 05:35:55 PM
put another way

is there a comparison of the same frame score cattle.

looking at the data, once could infer some dramatic window of frame score not to exceed with low lines with 4.7 being "optimum".

i'm not sure the graph says anything other than that the price varied.

it looks like the more important factor is to just add 300 lbs to the lowline animals rather than 241 or 349 lbs.

what would be more interesting to me is to track ultrasound ribeye area over time, corrolate that with on the hoof evaluation, add in fat cover, marbling after the fact etc and determine a product and determine age to quit feeding and fit a window one desired.  the more you could do that on grass while minimizing (not eliminating) corn, the better.  it seems the good feeders already know this, but most producers don't, producers that track data are doing it with less numbers than feeders, but with genetic tracking.  this looks like the conundrum of the feeder packer trying to influence more pressure on producers to have a more uniform product and just feed it a different number of days based on the terminal product, walmart vs restaurant.
Title: Re: Is there a breed that doesn't have a genetic defect.
Post by: aj on August 15, 2008, 06:34:22 PM
Wow...just checked back on my post and all kinds of genetic defects have broke loose. DL...if you snail mail me a copy I can cover costs. Didn't the limi's have a deal where they were sensitive or alergic to sun or something. Mutation and evolution has occured a long time. For instance if a polled buffalo bull existed....would he even get close to a female buffalo(cause he had no horns to help him battle)? Thus the polled line would never occur. I guess I need to go to a buffalo convention and get educated on this stuff. Mutations are forever unless you make them go away alot of times. Th is not going to go away unless you test and make it go away. So 500 years from now it will be floating around out there unless we make it go away.Alot of people can't understand how you can get a horned calf when both parents are polled. Or they don't get how you can have a red calf when both parents are black. Education is the key. I just wish I could figure out the Red Angus deal but I'm not sure anyone has yet. ;D