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Offline Longway Ranch - SK, Canada

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Probiotics
« on: August 14, 2008, 08:13:12 PM »
What type/brand of probiotic does everyone use when they need them?  Is there an at home remedy that is cheaper...besides shoving a gallon of yogurt down ur steers throat? (clapping)
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Offline knabe

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 08:23:23 PM »
i haven't read too much on probiotics other than the supposedly reduce marbling and increase health and reduce E. coli populations.

is there a probiotic which is not antagonistic to marbling?

this is probably a stupid question, but could a type of stress actually encourage marbling?

why is marbling beneficial to the animal?
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Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 08:30:40 PM »
When we have one get off feed a little bit at home, we mix in some yeast in their feed.  It really seems to get them back on track.  A lot of the big time show supplements have yeast in them to promote rumen health.  We haven't given a probiotic paste in a few years, but if we HAD to, I think it would be either Probios or Fastrack.
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Offline Kansas Karl

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 08:49:51 PM »
I use the probios
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Offline simtal

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 08:58:47 PM »
i haven't read too much on probiotics other than the supposedly reduce marbling and increase health and reduce E. coli populations.

is there a probiotic which is not antagonistic to marbling?

this is probably a stupid question, but could a type of stress actually encourage marbling?

why is marbling beneficial to the animal?


Reduce marbling?  I haven't heard that, and some recent research says that there was no difference when using steam flaked corn. 

stress and marbling have the same relationship that gas and car have.

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Offline TJ

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 09:35:06 PM »
i haven't read too much on probiotics other than the supposedly reduce marbling and increase health and reduce E. coli populations.

is there a probiotic which is not antagonistic to marbling?

this is probably a stupid question, but could a type of stress actually encourage marbling?

why is marbling beneficial to the animal?


Reduce marbling?  I haven't heard that, and some recent research says that there was no difference when using steam flaked corn. 

stress and marbling have the same relationship that gas and car have.

I'm not buying that probiotics reduce marbling.  I don't honestly see how they could & I've seen too many steers grade choice & prime, that were fed probiotics to believe that it will. 

BTW, our mineral has yeast mixed in with it.  We also have used Fastrack quite a bit.  When it's fresh & stored properly, I've seen Fastrack do some amazing things.   

 
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Offline knabe

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 09:49:04 PM »
probiotics, marbling.

http://www.library.uow.edu.au/adt-NWU/public/adt-NWU20061205.102712/index.html

gonna read this thesis.

A trial involving newly inducted cattle in a feedlot, formed the basis of initial attempts to assess the benefits of a commercial probiotic formulation Protexin on intestinal health by enumeration of a select subset of cultivable bacteria species and by assessment of immune modulation. The results failed to demonstrate a significant change in the population dynamics of cultured faecal microbes but did show that Protexin stimulated immune responsiveness in T cells.

Carcass analysis demonstrated a significant reduction in marbling or intramuscular fat deposition.

In the course of examining the faecal microflora from feedlot cattle, the presence of high levels of Bacillus spores suggested that one possible reason for the lack of a growth benefit may be attributed to a high endogenous level of bacilli. Since there were no reliable methodologies for identifying Bacillus species, an alternative procedure was developed involving amplified ribosomal DNA restriction analysis (ARDRA). With this protocol, we were able to show that cattle faeces contained large numbers of Bacillus spores representing different mesophilic species, where B. subtilis, B. licheniformis and B. clausii dominated. The presence of a stable population of coliforms in cattle faeces that was not altered by probiotic feeding highlighted the importance of developing better techniques to characterise diversity in E. coli, a potential food-borne pathogen of economic significance to the cattle industry.

maybe this guys's thesis is suspect.
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Offline Longway Ranch - SK, Canada

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 10:31:08 PM »
When we have one get off feed a little bit at home, we mix in some yeast in their feed.  It really seems to get them back on track.  A lot of the big time show supplements have yeast in them to promote rumen health.  We haven't given a probiotic paste in a few years, but if we HAD to, I think it would be either Probios or Fastrack.

We typically take calves to Agribition every year...and its a weeklong show.  It never fails that they go off feed and look like $hit.  Besides feeding beet pulp, I am looking for a way to keep them full and fresh.  We have gone the Appetite Express route, and would try it again.
Would you use regular grocery store yeast that is used when baking bread?  How much do you give?  How often?
Thank You.
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Offline Olson Family Shorthorns

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 10:39:14 PM »
Apetite Express  worked well for us too, I almost forgot about that one.
 
  We use brewer's yeast that we get from the feed mill.  I was told that you can't really over feed it, so we give them like a handfull per feeding for young calves, all the way up to a double handful for calves over 1000 lbs.  I would feed it the whole time you're at the show, and maybe a few days before, just to get that rumen in really good shape.  Maybe talk to your feed guy to see how much you can feed safely, I would hate for your calves to be messed up if I give you bad advice. 
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Offline TJ

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 11:25:05 PM »
probiotics, marbling.

http://www.library.uow.edu.au/adt-NWU/public/adt-NWU20061205.102712/index.html

gonna read this thesis.

A trial involving newly inducted cattle in a feedlot, formed the basis of initial attempts to assess the benefits of a commercial probiotic formulation Protexin on intestinal health by enumeration of a select subset of cultivable bacteria species and by assessment of immune modulation. The results failed to demonstrate a significant change in the population dynamics of cultured faecal microbes but did show that Protexin stimulated immune responsiveness in T cells.

Carcass analysis demonstrated a significant reduction in marbling or intramuscular fat deposition.

In the course of examining the faecal microflora from feedlot cattle, the presence of high levels of Bacillus spores suggested that one possible reason for the lack of a growth benefit may be attributed to a high endogenous level of bacilli. Since there were no reliable methodologies for identifying Bacillus species, an alternative procedure was developed involving amplified ribosomal DNA restriction analysis (ARDRA). With this protocol, we were able to show that cattle faeces contained large numbers of Bacillus spores representing different mesophilic species, where B. subtilis, B. licheniformis and B. clausii dominated. The presence of a stable population of coliforms in cattle faeces that was not altered by probiotic feeding highlighted the importance of developing better techniques to characterise diversity in E. coli, a potential food-borne pathogen of economic significance to the cattle industry.

maybe this guys's thesis is suspect.


It's going to take a whole lot more research to convince me that marbling is reduced by probiotics.  Furthermore, unless I am totally confused, B. subtilis, B. licheniformis and B. clausii are not found in Fastrack & I don't think that they are found in Probios.  I know that Fastrack contains more than just "lactobascillus".  However, it shouldn't matter what strains they are.  If one bacillus strain effects marbling, they all would likely have to effect marbling.  But, even so, & after reading that thesis, I still can't believe that any bacillus species would or could reduce marbling, especially when I've seen probiotics improve animal performance & condition & those same animals grade well.  Then again, maybe those animals would've graded better.  I've been known to be wrong, but I feel pretty confident that I am not (although that doesn't mean anything either).   
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Offline simtal

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 03:53:24 PM »
well the only way that  probiotics would alter marbling is changing the rumen population from less propionate to more acetate, I would think.  but even that really wouldn't have that much effect.

check out this study,
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/11/2686?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=probiotics&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
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Offline knabe

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Re: Probiotics
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 07:53:14 PM »
after reading the thesis, it appears there is no control for determining if the cattle maturity was just delayed and marbling % would have increased anyway.  perhaps probiotics are just curve shifters, not curve changers.

all in all, environment appears poorly understood with regards to marbling.
Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everyone.

Just do it. Nike and Stalin

 

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