Is this a Market Heifer or Breeding Heifer

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shortyjock89

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I'm not so sure. If you had told me the last pic was a steer and I didn't look very hard I'd be inclined to believe you.

She's sure nice, but doesn't look to have the overall rib sweep or capacity that the breeding heifers habe nowadays.
 

BroncoFan

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From the most updated picture, I'd say breeding heifer but enter her in both classes since every judge is different and let different judges sort her out.
 

Tallcool1

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BroncoFan said:
From the most updated picture, I'd say breeding heifer but enter her in both classes since every judge is different and let different judges sort her out.

That is actually what we have done so far.  We have never showed her as a Breeding Heifer, but that option is still available to us.

It is actually pretty funny to listen to the conversations that have taken place regarding how to show this heifer.  We got her from 3 producers that have their sales together.  Even they can't agree with one another as to how she should be shown.  Where we are at right now is we are going to see how much hair the kids get on her by State Fair, and we will make the determination at that point.

The only thing that everyone agrees on is that she is going to be a club calf producing machine.  For whatever reason, every producer that has looked at her has told me that they like the "in between" females as cows.  They are moderate, easy doing, structurally hold together well, and give a lot of different mating options.

I appreciate the comments as to the quality of this heifer, but more importantly to me I appreciate what I have learned from all of you. 

I think from this year forward we will stick with steers!  This is the first heifer we have ever had, and the only reason we bought her is because she was the best calf we saw all fall.
 

Danielle1018

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DBL J1 said:
In the first pictures she looked like a market heifer to me , more of a breeding heifer in the most recent picture . Nice heifer either way !!

I would have to agree. I think in the first pictures she has tons of muscle definition in her rear end from what I can tell. In her most recent picture she doesn't appear quite as muscled through her rump and looks to have matured to a bigger framed, longer made heifer. But as stated before she is a nice heifer either way and in my opinion could compete in either division. (clapping)
 

Timber1

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I agree with showing her in both classes. We just had an open show at our fair and the same heifer won the market and breeding shows. So go for it!
 

sizzler14

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I love that heifers neck. Really I think it comes down to how you wanna clip her. I think if you would square up her hock and give her a lot of set, much like you did in her knee and really really take some time on that belly and carve it out, you can give her some sweep and make her a breeding heifer
 

Tallcool1

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A couple more pictures to add to the conversation!

My personal opinion is with Sizzler.  She will be whatever we have the hair to make her.  The picture I posted last week was at a County Fair, and we took very little hair off her for that show.  She was clipped in about 45 minutes, just to knock the edges off.  We didn't want to take anymore hair than was absolutely necessary.

If we don't get her bred pretty quick she is going to be a Market Heifer regardless of what we want her to be.
 

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Warrior10

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Looks really good either way, my personal opinion would be a market heifer but I understand why some think breeding. That front end could be the extra look that will separate her from some other market heifers at the top of the class. How has she been doing at the shows and what have the judges comments been? Just out of pure curiosity.
 

sizzler14

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As a cattleman with taste and preference a little outside the box, I want to ask why people think she’s a market heifer now that she’s grown out, and why that's a bad thing. I'm not disagreeing with anybody's opinion, but I am asking you to put your thinking cap on... From my view, this heifer has a good neck, not a long freaky neck like some i-80's you see, but a clean refined neck with adequate length that appears longer due to hair. I think it’s a front end that should come on a lot of females. My experience with freak necked females are, they eventually become weak behind their shoulders and shallow in their heart girth, while being cows that are harder keepers. I know there is 1 in 10 that will say they have a cow that’s mother was half giraffe and is rolly polly fat. I get that, and not every single patriots football was deflated, but what is so special about the freak necked cattle not only to the commercial man but even people who RAISE clubbies? If a cow with a longer neck can reach more hay, but she has to consume more.... Anyway this heifer I think has adequate neck for a breeding heifer. 2nd, we can move into belly. We are demanding cattle to have more belly than ever, which is fine to me. My question is how are we expecting these cattle to have bellies that drag the ground, without "child-bearing" hips, because anytime we seem to see a heifer with a notch of power, she’s labeled a market heifer. To me, cattle are real life creatures and not something you toy around with on Photoshop and clipart. If we want a steer to have big rear quarters, to me we have to sacrifice some shoulder to help support that. If we want big bellies in females, I think they should have a little bigger tops and hind quarters to support that, otherwise these things are going to start looking as awkward as the moment you are in a bad car accident and your wife and girlfriend show up to the ER at the same time. Next I will ask about frame. Now from a picture I am the world’s worst at telling Hip Height so on this heifer I have no idea just how tall or short she really is. Nonetheless, what’s wrong with cows that are a little bigger framed? I have always bred with this philosophy, the cattle industry is one big circle. One year we want this, 5 years from now we want this, 10 years from now we want what they wanted 15 years prior etc. In my experience, it’s much easier to breed a cow down then it is to breed one up, and I know people talk about how much the bull matters, but I think cows mean 100 times more. When you pick up a sire catalog, there are about 250 bulls that seem to be bred the exact same. Which to me means, the only thing stopping me from being John Griswold is cow power (so to speak, I am nowhere near the cattleman He is, just using him as an extreme example)? And like I said, I think it’s easier to breed a big cow to a small bull and downsize her then it is to breed a little cow to a taller bull to try and get a bigger calf. Lastly like I said about power earlier, why is it bad? I’m not talking about a heifer that looks like Smiling Bob in Denver, but a heifer like this. I do not think this heifer IN MY OPINION is too stout and should be classified a market and essentially sent to market if she would win a market show. I think this heifer has a lot of guts and needs power to support it. Now I know people say a heifer should look like a heifer and a steer should look like a steer. I think the same thing goes for women as well..... And here is my example on that.... I was in high school once, pretty big school. About 1300 kids....We had basketball players, we had dancers, and we had softball, swimming, starving tapeworm want to be models, rednecks... Just about every stereotype there is. The ones that always got to me where those soccer players and volleyball players (especially Olympic volleyball). Only thing I can figure out why is,  they weren’t usually monster chested, usually had a pretty face, but the hips. Oh the hips... That’s how I liked my women, and that’s how I like my heifers; Pretty head and neck, clean chested, with a shot of power. If we keep picking these cat-ass heifers in the show ring and killing the ones with some power and dimension, we are going to start having out cattle look like Bruce Jenner, I mean Caitlyn Jenner, I mean dang it, it’s the same thing, they all look alike. No power, no balls, and just wanting to be skinny in high heels. I’m not bashing anyone’s opinions at all, I just don’t personally see how this heifer has pushed the envelope to the other side, and I want to know why we are letting the market head down this way making us  think we need such dainty females. 
 

skeeter

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^^^ agree one hundred percent.  from a show steer perspective only, I think to raise competitive steers you have to have cows with some muscle, bone, ability to travel, and overall complete package.  I think this heifer, with the right bull, has a chance to raise some competitive steers.  I think you should be looking forward to what she can produce for you.
 

Tallcool1

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I really enjoy these types of threads.  These are the kind of threads that teach me to look at things different or at least see things from another person's perspective. 

Sizzler makes some really good points in his most recent post, and not just about this heifer.  There is a lot of give and take with these cattle today.  We want whale assed steers that are flexible and long strided.  That doesn't happen.  You have to give up a little bit of one of the two traits.  (I am not talking about manufactured cattle, I am talking about cattle that WILL pass the post race inspection).  I believe that we have to make a choice on which traits are the most important to us and just understand that you will give something up to get that trait.

If you look at the very last photo of this heifer, you will understand what I am going to say about her.

I have the luxury of seeing her on the wash rack every day, so I am able to see what is under all of that hair.  This heifer is a breeding heifer.  She is not very big.  Probably weighs in the neighborhood of 1200 pounds by now.  She is not overly thick, but certainly not narrow.  She is big bellied, but not a belly dragger by any means.  She is very angular in her shoulder which to me, is a sign of milk productivity.  The only way that this heifer will ever be shipped to a packer is if we can't get her bred or she is the Champion overall Market Animal at our State Fair......which neither is likely to happen.

The only thing that puts this heifer in the market category is clipping-fitting-hair.  She dresses really nice, and we have been reluctant to take all of her hair off to show her as a breeding heifer.  There is no going back after that.

She has done well for us in the show ring this year.  Stood 3rd at UNL AGR show in Dec, 2nd and 3rd at UNL B&B in February, won a couple weeks ago at our County Fair.  What do judges say about her...most recently the judge said she is the soundest and best moving heifer he had seen all day, including the breeding heifers.  He also said that she could be shown either way, and likely would have won either way today.  He said that he would take soundness and structure over a little extra muscle any day.

At any rate, this heifer will be for sale in a few months when we are done showing her.  She should be safe to I-80 to calve in April.  She has been a lot of fun, and has taught us a lot. 
 

Warrior10

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Good points by everyone, I had questions about her frame affecting her potential as a breeding heifer. But we are only looking at side profile pictures so it is hard to get a true idea for her width/mass/frame.
 

BroncoFan

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Sizzler14 said:
As a cattleman with taste and preference a little outside the box, I want to ask why people think she’s a market heifer now that she’s grown out, and why that's a bad thing. I'm not disagreeing with anybody's opinion, but I am asking you to put your thinking cap on... From my view, this heifer has a good neck, not a long freaky neck like some i-80's you see, but a clean refined neck with adequate length that appears longer due to hair. I think it’s a front end that should come on a lot of females. My experience with freak necked females are, they eventually become weak behind their shoulders and shallow in their heart girth, while being cows that are harder keepers. I know there is 1 in 10 that will say they have a cow that’s mother was half giraffe and is rolly polly fat. I get that, and not every single patriots football was deflated, but what is so special about the freak necked cattle not only to the commercial man but even people who RAISE clubbies? If a cow with a longer neck can reach more hay, but she has to consume more.... Anyway this heifer I think has adequate neck for a breeding heifer. 2nd, we can move into belly. We are demanding cattle to have more belly than ever, which is fine to me. My question is how are we expecting these cattle to have bellies that drag the ground, without "child-bearing" hips, because anytime we seem to see a heifer with a notch of power, she’s labeled a market heifer. To me, cattle are real life creatures and not something you toy around with on Photoshop and clipart. If we want a steer to have big rear quarters, to me we have to sacrifice some shoulder to help support that. If we want big bellies in females, I think they should have a little bigger tops and hind quarters to support that, otherwise these things are going to start looking as awkward as the moment you are in a bad car accident and your wife and girlfriend show up to the ER at the same time. Next I will ask about frame. Now from a picture I am the world’s worst at telling Hip Height so on this heifer I have no idea just how tall or short she really is. Nonetheless, what’s wrong with cows that are a little bigger framed? I have always bred with this philosophy, the cattle industry is one big circle. One year we want this, 5 years from now we want this, 10 years from now we want what they wanted 15 years prior etc. In my experience, it’s much easier to breed a cow down then it is to breed one up, and I know people talk about how much the bull matters, but I think cows mean 100 times more. When you pick up a sire catalog, there are about 250 bulls that seem to be bred the exact same. Which to me means, the only thing stopping me from being John Griswold is cow power (so to speak, I am nowhere near the cattleman He is, just using him as an extreme example)? And like I said, I think it’s easier to breed a big cow to a small bull and downsize her then it is to breed a little cow to a taller bull to try and get a bigger calf. Lastly like I said about power earlier, why is it bad? I’m not talking about a heifer that looks like Smiling Bob in Denver, but a heifer like this. I do not think this heifer IN MY OPINION is too stout and should be classified a market and essentially sent to market if she would win a market show. I think this heifer has a lot of guts and needs power to support it. Now I know people say a heifer should look like a heifer and a steer should look like a steer. I think the same thing goes for women as well..... And here is my example on that.... I was in high school once, pretty big school. About 1300 kids....We had basketball players, we had dancers, and we had softball, swimming, starving tapeworm want to be models, rednecks... Just about every stereotype there is. The ones that always got to me where those soccer players and volleyball players (especially Olympic volleyball). Only thing I can figure out why is,  they weren’t usually monster chested, usually had a pretty face, but the hips. Oh the hips... That’s how I liked my women, and that’s how I like my heifers; Pretty head and neck, clean chested, with a shot of power. If we keep picking these cat-ass heifers in the show ring and killing the ones with some power and dimension, we are going to start having out cattle look like Bruce Jenner, I mean Caitlyn Jenner, I mean dang it, it’s the same thing, they all look alike. No power, no balls, and just wanting to be skinny in high heels. I’m not bashing anyone’s opinions at all, I just don’t personally see how this heifer has pushed the envelope to the other side, and I want to know why we are letting the market head down this way making us  think we need such dainty females.
Great post but in the end it doesn't matter what this judge or that judge would classify her as, she would make a great breeding piece in most herds.  Speaking of trends, I would venture to guess that people like the Griswold's don't chase the trends like some people because good cattle is good cattle no matter what.  There are a lot that I like about the Griswolds, Yardleys, etc programs. Their maine, angus and simmi cattle are pretty even across the board in terms of power, size and mass.  I heard Mr.Yardley say and I'll paraphrase that his cattle are so uniform that you can't tell except for real subtle differences the difference between his angus, simmi and maine cattle. 
 

knabe

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if you have to ask, she's a market heifer.


from a commercial standpoint, if her calves have stockings, she and her calves will be discounted as dairy no matter what because they know they can get away with it.


the show industry keeps pushing these stocking females as something valuable to the industry, when really they only serve to get discounted down the road.


i have always wanted to take a pen of heifers, one with stockings, see what they bring, then paint them and see what they bring.
 

Tallcool1

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Messages
969
knabe said:
if you have to ask, she's a market heifer.


from a commercial standpoint, if her calves have stockings, she and her calves will be discounted as dairy no matter what because they know they can get away with it.


the show industry keeps pushing these stocking females as something valuable to the industry, when really they only serve to get discounted down the road.


i have always wanted to take a pen of heifers, one with stockings, see what they bring, then paint them and see what they bring.

Respectfully.....The show industry keeps pushing these stocking females as something valuable to the industry, BECAUSE THEY ARE.  The show industry is an industry in and of itself, and painted up cattle fetch a premium in the fall show cattle sales.  I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I do know that it is a fact. 
 

sizzler14

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What's the real purpose of registered cattle to begin with if the whole world is only supposed to focus on feeding itself and selling commercially. Why is black cattle worth more when in reality they can't handle the heat as well as colored breeds? Why do we pay $2 for tap water? Why do you pay $100-$1000 more for a dog with AKC papers if your not going to take it to Westminster? Why do girls think your just coming over to talk with fuel at $3.00 a gallon?
 

shortyjock89

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HA.

And how do some people make a living raising show ring Shorthorns?

I can't believe it's not butter!
 

diamonddls

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Delburne Alberta
knabe said:
Outside of the show ring, what is their value?

At the sale yard etc. they are docked.
Our are may be different but good cattle are good cattle the sale barn dockage based on colour is rarer and rarer each fall. As a Maine breeder I always have painted up calves that end up heading to the sale barn. The sell as well as the solid patterned calves. I've seen more dockage on fine boned plain made British influenced solid patterned calves than I see on our painted up Maine and Maine x Simmental calves. To each their own but I can say first hand our buyers don't discount for colour. The only colour discount that still takes place in our commercial industry is the feather neck/ line back Hereford calves.
 

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