lets have a different conversation about heifer calving ease

A.J.,One of the posters on the Keeney's corner site referenced by the Librarian mentions an experience with Simmental influenced cattle in the 70's.He also mentioned that all the cattle that had bumps on the pelvis also had high tailheads.It could be a valuable study to see if there was any correlation between the 2.
A.J. I know you are smarter than to use bulls just because they are 80lbs and you probably should of added that they needed to come from a herd that consistently produced those weights as opposed to the other extreme of 3 outliers from 3 different programs with much higher avg. birthweights.
Xbar,I greatly appreciate the many points you made in your post.I know you were using the birth to weaning spread to make a point but I would caution that we need to look at the big picture.In the 80's and the Marc data from that era will support this, we had cattle that could calve effortlessly and wean 700 pound calves that easily graded choice the problem was as the old timers use to say you had to tie the cow to the corn crib so she would rebreed in a timely manner.
A purebred breeder today needs to realize that they are supplying a component to the commercial industry .They need to reliably provide the traits their breed is strong in with the least amount of problems and even  more so in the Shorthorn breed where our greatest potential is influencing the cow herd meaning long term instead of just being able to walk across the scales at 16 mo.An amazing birth to weaning spread could be just that, amazing or it could mean a financial disaster.Looking at the big picture is the most important trait a purebred breeder can have.

I am still studying this.
If we believed in epd's, where would we want to move the herd averages to for MCE, YW and BW to center on an animal that would predictably generate cows suitable for today's beef industry? Or is this a dumb approach?
I have sorted for MCE above 9 and YW above 65 (average) and BW below 2.4 (average).
In that group, GAFA  Captain Macbest has 13 pages of progeny

Seems like he worked good enough. Is there a picture?
How about a picture of Stampede, if anyone has time.

librarian said:

I am still studying this.
If we believed in epd's, where would we want to move the herd averages to for MCE, YW and BW to center on an animal that would predictably generate cows suitable for today's beef industry? Or is this a dumb approach?
I have sorted for MCE above 9 and YW above 65 (average) and BW below 2.4 (average).
In that group, GAFA  Captain Macbest has 13 pages of progeny

Seems like he worked good enough. Is there a picture?
How about a picture of Stampede, if anyone has time.
Also two pics of Prophecy's dam, Diamond Kalika Baroness 28K as a bred heifer and as 3 year old.

Click to expand...

Gafa Captain Macbest 6G was the best bull I had ever had, he sired calves that came easy, 100% dehorner, they grew quickly, they were attractive, there was demand for both his bulls and heifers, his daughters calved easily, had good udders with lots of milk...BUT (because there is always a "but" in the seedstock industry) he was a TH carrier. It was a big disappointment. I had all his semen destroyed except 5 straws. We tested the entire herd for TH. We culled a lot of daughters and carried on with the THF and a few THC daughters. As we got THF daughters of the carrier cows we would ship the carrier dams. Diamond Prophecy 21P is out of a 6G daughter. Some day I plan on flushing to those five straws and hopefully will produce a THF son to use. We have one THF daughter left in production, raising a good bull calf at 15 years of age.
Here is a photo of 6G on pasture and a daughter.
Also a pic of Saskvalley Stampede.

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

I'm sure sorry about Macbest, I hadn't even figured out that he was your bull.  It's a good lesson that there are some things you just can't see.  I have this idea that if you really know what you are looking at, the animal will tell you most of the things you want to know. That's why I look at pictures all the time, and that's why I try to connect records with images...but it only goes so far.
But, as far as seeing what I am looking at, I see a similarity in the hind end and top line of these bulls that I think is relevant to breeding out calving difficulties.  But I'm just guessing.

r.n.reed said:

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

Click to expand...

What is this cow's frame and weight?

aj said:

Mill Iron.....thats so interesting. Our vet.....when she does pelvic exams checks for extra bone in the base of the pelvis. Every body I talk to about it thinks I'm crazy.....I wondered if she was crazy. Is there a name for this abnormality? Is it a mutation? Thanks in advance. Does this occur in all breeds?

Click to expand...

This isn't all that uncommon when we were palpating commercial heifers at the ranch  a lot of otherwise breeding sound heifers have ended up in the feeder pen due to extra bone at the base of the pelvis. Most of these culled heifers have been Red Angus crossed usually with Simmental.

I firmly believe that palpation should be done in breeding females purebred and commercial to avoid reproductive problems from becoming a common occurrence. 

Is there a picture of the bone?


Is it common that all vets should know about it?


Why does it cause problems?


Is it another defect?

There must be omething taught in vet schools about it. Surely there is something published some where.

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

Click to expand...

What is this cow's frame and weight?

Click to expand...

This cow was a 5 frame at weaning and maturity.I never had a mature weight but would put her in that 1300-1400 weight range based on the weights I have of similar type cows.She had a 591 lb. adj.weaning weight and ratioed 109 in a contemporary group of 9 several of which were bigger framed than her.

Questions
If that bone is a mutation, do bulls have it to?
Is this something an AI technician would know all about?
How does temperature interact with gene expression on birth weight?
If it does regulate something, would it be set at conception temperature?
Why do little cows like Galloways and Jerseys have large pelvises?
Does high BW correlate with A1 milk mutation?

I thought about moderate size for my own reasons and lowered the YW in my epd sort. I did this after really thinking about the big picture with Diamond Prophecy.
I looked back to the epds of older bulls like Ball Dee Perfect Count over many generations. I picked him because of Four Point Major and because some of my cows go to Kenbar Perfect Count 13th. The 13th bull fits right in with my best guess homemade cow maker phenotype image. His photo below.

So, those older epds hang in there for generations (maybe they are estimates or something) so I just plugged them into the search.
CE greater than 7
YW less than 30
MCE greater than 2
I am suggesting these as authentic average Shorthorn values for low input management, forage only functional production. Aiming at the herd average.
Using those numbers yields a lot of Native sounding breeding and a lot of very recent breeding. Hero is right in there and one of my favorites, Kenmar Ransom.
I see Deerpark Leader 18th come up a lot in various sort combinations.
But, now I am working on firewood for awhile. Thanks for your help.

r.n.reed said:

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

Click to expand...

What is this cow's frame and weight?

Click to expand...

This cow was a 5 frame at weaning and maturity.I never had a mature weight but would put her in that 1300-1400 weight range based on the weights I have of similar type cows.She had a 591 lb. adj.weaning weight and ratioed 109 in a contemporary group of 9 several of which were bigger framed than her.

Click to expand...

She looks good!

I had guessed her a little smaller than that by her picture.  Would love to start funneling 5-6 frame ~1400lbs females of her type back into the commercial herd.

librarian said:

I thought about moderate size for my own reasons and lowered the YW in my epd sort. I did this after really thinking about the big picture with Diamond Prophecy.
I looked back to the epds of older bulls like Ball Dee Perfect Count over many generations. I picked him because of Four Point Major and because some of my cows go to Kenbar Perfect Count 13th. The 13th bull fits right in with my best guess homemade cow maker phenotype image. His photo below.

So, those older epds hang in there for generations (maybe they are estimates or something) so I just plugged them into the search.
CE greater than 7
YW less than 30
MCE greater than 2
I am suggesting these as authentic average Shorthorn values for low input management, forage only functional production. Aiming at the herd average.
Using those numbers yields a lot of Native sounding breeding and a lot of very recent breeding. Hero is right in there and one of my favorites, Kenmar Ransom.
I see Deerpark Leader 18th come up a lot in various sort combinations.
But, now I am working on firewood for awhile. Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

A couple thoughts-

EPD's on modern bull w/ low accuracy are unreliable.

EPD's on these older bull's w/ zero accuracy are a literal joke.

Doing EPD searches for bulls, that undoubtedly have low or no accuracy, is a waste of your time-- data w/o information is just data.  Information is that which is useful.

Four Point Major is a bull I've always wanted to use as well.  But don't be deceived by his EPD's -- at over 2700lbs, they called him Massive Major for a reason.

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

Click to expand...

What is this cow's frame and weight?

Click to expand...

This cow was a 5 frame at weaning and maturity.I never had a mature weight but would put her in that 1300-1400 weight range based on the weights I have of similar type cows.She had a 591 lb. adj.weaning weight and ratioed 109 in a contemporary group of 9 several of which were bigger framed than her.

Click to expand...

She looks good!

I had guessed her a little smaller than that by her picture.  Would love to start funneling 5-6 frame ~1400lbs females of her type back into the commercial herd.

Click to expand...

When you find the SH bull that will sire 5 frame 1400lb cows, please make a point to let me know!!! I'm trying to get there now starting w/ 1000-1100lb 4 and 5 frame cows.  It's very tough to add that extra depth/width w/o getting into taller cattle. 

Yes, it dawned on me that I put Native numbers in and got Native numbers out.
I think this man is teaching the kids about length of hip.

Tis has been an interesting read.  The bone you talk about I encountered in Kansas at a larger operation, it seemed to be occurring with out regard to bloodlines or where the heifers originated.  They had a cooperator deal going and it showed up when I went back to calve heifers.  They measured pelvic area one year and I don't think the tech even noticed. 

On the birth weights,  I wonder how much of it is heifers going over on their due dates and then in some instances someone with an ax to grind turning in birth weights let us say with several pounds added. 

-XBAR- said:

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

Medium Rare said:

r.n.reed said:

I was able to purchase Gafa Macbest's Lady 32d in 1999 she was a 3/4 sister to 6g and happened to be carrying Wolf Ridge High Level when I brought her down.Needless to say he played a very important role in my herd.Here is a pic of one of my favorite High Level daughters.

Click to expand...

What is this cow's frame and weight?

Click to expand...

This cow was a 5 frame at weaning and maturity.I never had a mature weight but would put her in that 1300-1400 weight range based on the weights I have of similar type cows.She had a 591 lb. adj.weaning weight and ratioed 109 in a contemporary group of 9 several of which were bigger framed than her.

Click to expand...

She looks good!

I had guessed her a little smaller than that by her picture.  Would love to start funneling 5-6 frame ~1400lbs females of her type back into the commercial herd.

Click to expand...

When you find the SH bull that will sire 5 frame 1400lb cows, please make a point to let me know!!! I'm trying to get there now starting w/ 1000-1100lb 4 and 5 frame cows.  It's very tough to add that extra depth/width w/o getting into taller cattle.

Click to expand...

What size cows would this bull be working on?  I am assuming you are looking for a smaller framed thick deep bull, is that correct?

I was reading about Smallflower Leader 2nf
http://rlshorthorns.com/smallflower_leader_2.htm
It says he was used on feedlot trials at KSU in the 1970's., so maybe there are good records on weights.
His sire was Butte Lee Leader 2nd. 
Butte Lee cows must have been pretty great, maybe try to figure out his recipe.

Thanks for your patience as I study this.
Here is a picture of Four Point Major from Bender's site. Those cows in the back look pretty big.
XBAR, how did you end up with 1100  pounds cows .
Anyway, I'm posting these old bulls because it  looks like they were pushing for growth from within the breed with these genetics. But  theoretically, they calved easily. My "research" made it seem that these days growth and asterix go together and that is a different subject. If we want to impart Shorthorn maternal strength, then dilution seems a mistake.

How did they get a 2700 bull back then? Were his calves averaging over 80 lbs?
Was Muridales Hero bull bred to "go native" and bring the averages back toward the old type? Or Frontline? Frontline only fell out of my Authentic group by being a few lbs heavy on YW.
Bonanza fell out for having way too much growth.....

beebe said:

-XBAR- said:

Medium Rare said:

I had guessed her a little smaller than that by her picture.  Would love to start funneling 5-6 frame ~1400lbs females of her type back into the commercial herd.

Click to expand...

When you find the SH bull that will sire 5 frame 1400lb cows, please make a point to let me know!!! I'm trying to get there now starting w/ 1000-1100lb 4 and 5 frame cows.  It's very tough to add that extra depth/width w/o getting into taller cattle.

Click to expand...

What size cows would this bull be working on?  I am assuming you are looking for a smaller framed thick deep bull, is that correct?

Click to expand...

Cows are mostly 5's w/ prolly equal amount of outlier 4's and 6's. 

Wouldn't be looking for anything smaller--  still takes a pretty sizable bull to sire 5 frame 1400lb cows.  Prolly 6 frame bull 2400lbs or so? What do you think??

The majority of 4-5 frame SH bulls I know of are just too small bodied to sire 1400lb daughters; they're only 17-1800lb themselves (In pasture conditions). It's important to mention what level of condition the cattle are in when discussing these things.  When I say I want 5 frame 1400lb cow, that's 1400lbs at their heaviest time of the year: around a bcs 6.