Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: Willow Springs on April 08, 2019, 08:11:14 PM

Title: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 08, 2019, 08:11:14 PM
Would appreciate pics if someone has them handy on their computer or knows where to find them.

Seven T's Greg
SRS Instant Replay
Homedale Equity
Matlock Torpedo
Deer Trail Goliath
Homedale Equity
Belmore Ultra-Bright
CF High Rise
Red Max Prince
Butterfield Krakatoa
Kenbar White Expansion
Minn Duke Darius (DP)
Green Row Everlasting (DP)
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 09, 2019, 08:28:03 PM
Well I'll add some that were sent to me

Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: oakview on April 10, 2019, 08:43:20 AM
That is one interesting mixture of bulls.  I am somewhat familiar with all of them except Red Max Prince.  Most of them were decent bulls in their day, don't know if that day is today, though.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Shorthorn-Fed on April 10, 2019, 08:45:38 AM
It would be nice if there was someone standing in the photo of Red Max Prince to gauge his size/frame. I would take a guess that he would be 4.5 ish and not any where close to hunting geese with a rake like the other two.



Russ
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: knabe on April 10, 2019, 09:03:07 AM
If 7tís head was on his butt and vice versa, he might be an ok bull.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 10, 2019, 09:20:08 AM
I prefer the look of Red Max Prince, but he was born in 1964 so chances are he was fairly small? Picture just not taken in 2 feet of straw, but I can sure appreciate the type he displays in the picture. Goliath looks fairly useful too - again picture taking/clip jobs probably make him look more extreme than he is. Gregs structure and type are just not good - but again just a picture so who knows.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: knabe on April 10, 2019, 10:23:37 AM
Middle 80ís was a waste of time.

More good cattle were sidelined probably than the 50ís

I remember showing  and judging thinking what the heck is wrong with these people.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: oakview on April 10, 2019, 10:39:09 AM
You need to remember who it was that told us those "Greg" type cattle were good.  The educated, smarter than us, college professors.  These were the same folks that told us we needed belt buckle cattle 20 years before.  Every calf in the late 70's and 80's needed to look like Friggio.  Every breed was the same.  I still have the old AI catalog describing Dollar II as "a comfortable 6 feet tall at the shoulder."  Clark was advertised as the Shorthorn bull that got the breed out of the mud.  There were ton junior yearling "Angus" heifers in Denver.  There was a rumor that some Herefords were actually Simmental crosses.  No kidding.  How much was Signal semen 30 years ago?  I'll wager it's not that expensive today.  Times change.  It's interesting and fun to use a little hindsight.   
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: GM on April 10, 2019, 08:05:15 PM
Was 1984 Denver the peak of Shorthorn interest in modern times?  I recall the sale being incredible with a bull selling for 100k - not much heard from him after that (2416).  From what I recall reading the stands were full of bidders, there was huge buzz, and the high seller sold for part interest to a breeder in South America.  Goliath was a monster and I donít think he won, or came close.  I think it was the first big wave of Ayatollah offspring at that show.  Curious what the historians recall.  Many amazing <7 frame cattle were pushed aside or lost in the chase.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 10, 2019, 08:56:40 PM
Quote
You need to remember who it was that told us those "Greg" type cattle were good.  The educated, smarter than us, college professors.  These were the same folks that told us we needed belt buckle cattle 20 years before.  Every calf in the late 70's and 80's needed to look like Friggio.  Every breed was the same.

I think the industry blames the college professors, ag fieldman, etc too much for their own screw ups. I agree that those types were advocating more growth and yield, however I doubt they were advocating for what the cattle became. The purebred show ring hype takes something and it becomes a game of one upmanship to the point that we move right past optimum to maximum - it happens with everything people do and is repeated over and over. First too small, then too big now it is chasing the highest EPD's and as usual show ring types that are not generally functional for a commercial range based operation.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 10, 2019, 09:27:28 PM
Some more pics
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: justintime on April 10, 2019, 10:51:39 PM
I prefer the look of Red Max Prince, but he was born in 1964 so chances are he was fairly small? Picture just not taken in 2 feet of straw, but I can sure appreciate the type he displays in the picture. Goliath looks fairly useful too - again picture taking/clip jobs probably make him look more extreme than he is. Gregs structure and type are just not good - but again just a picture so who knows.

Red Max Prince was a bigger bull than most in that era. He was raised by George Zelonka, Redvers, SK and we went down to try to buy him when he was about 6 years old. George did not have a scale on his farm, so he loaded him in his grain truck and took him to the grain elevator to weigh him. He told us he weighed just over 2400 lbs and my dad and I both thought that was fairly accurate. He had a massive body and was taller than most bulls in that era. George had him priced at $5000 and we did not buy him. That was a bunch of money back then, especially for a 6 year old bull. I remember my dad saying that he would have paid that for him, if he has seen some better calves from him. That day, we didn't see any calves that we thought would be as good as Red Max Prince was himself. He was very thick, and deep with exceptional softness, as well as smooth as an apple.  He looked like he was very easy fleshing.
There were some cattle in the 60s that were larger framed, especially here in Canada. They were the exception rather than the rule though. I remember Scotsmorr Fascinator being a massive bull, and he was a bull that bred very well. He was a 2500 lb bull that weighed that year round. Four Point Major was also a massive bull who weighed over 2600 lbs. Nupar Cherrio was another of the massive bulls I remember from the 60s and early 70s. We found him in a commercial herd near Yorkton, Saskatchewan when he was 8 years old. He was probably one of the biggest bulls I have seen.  There were several others that I remember, and almost all of them were bred by breeders who lived off the beaten track and didn't use much Scottish breeding from that era.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: idalee on April 11, 2019, 09:28:12 AM
Minn Duke Darius from the cover of the 1973 Milking Shorthorn Journal (Herd Sire Issue)  Darius weighed over 3000 pounds and sired a lot of growth and milk in Milking Shorthorns at that time. 
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: idalee on April 11, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Green Row Everlasting from the Western Ontario Breeders advertisement in the September 1975 Milking Shorthorn Journal.   Harley Headings of Kansas bred a bull from him named Double H GR Defender 4051361
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: oakview on April 11, 2019, 11:02:05 AM
In my 55 years of showing cattle, I would bet at least 90% of the judges I've shown under were college folks.  Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it was.  I was on the ISU livestock judging team until my wife made me retire after we were gone for over 2 weeks on a judging trip.  You would have a hard time proving to me that college livestock judging was not controlled by college people.  It's just a fact that they controlled type.  If you wanted to do well in the show or in the judging contest, you tried to show and pick the kind those in control liked.  You adjust your breeding program accordingly.  There's no reason to debate whether it's practical, good or bad.  That's just the way it is.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 11, 2019, 12:03:41 PM
Thanks for those Idalee.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Shorthorn-Fed on April 11, 2019, 01:41:36 PM
He was very thick, and deep with exceptional softness, as well as smooth as an apple.  He looked like he was very easy fleshing.
There were some cattle in the 60s that were larger framed, especially here in Canada. They were the exception rather than the rule though. I remember Scotsmorr Fascinator being a massive bull, and he was a bull that bred very well. He was a 2500 lb bull that weighed that year round. Four Point Major was also a massive bull who weighed over 2600 lbs. Nupar Cherrio was another of the massive bulls I remember from the 60s and early 70s. We found him in a commercial herd near Yorkton, Saskatchewan when he was 8 years old. He was probably one of the biggest bulls I have seen.  There were several others that I remember, and almost all of them were bred by breeders who lived off the beaten track and didn't use much Scottish breeding from that era.


What would you say Red Max Prince was frame score wise Grant? Was I undershooting at my guess of 4.5?

Russ
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: -XBAR- on April 11, 2019, 07:02:04 PM
 Zero chance he was a 4 1/2 frame if he indeed weighed 2400.  Though take into consideration  the embellishments that typically follow this particular storyteller. 

And $6000, in 1969, Mercy.  I was curious so had to look it up: the average annual income in both Canada and the US in Ď69 was between $5,800 and $6,000. With the average price of Saskatchewan farmland at the time being $60 an acre, where would a Western Canadian farmer have acquired that kind of disposable income to drop 100 times that on a bull ?
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: justintime on April 12, 2019, 08:12:45 AM
He was very thick, and deep with exceptional softness, as well as smooth as an apple.  He looked like he was very easy fleshing.
There were some cattle in the 60s that were larger framed, especially here in Canada. They were the exception rather than the rule though. I remember Scotsmorr Fascinator being a massive bull, and he was a bull that bred very well. He was a 2500 lb bull that weighed that year round. Four Point Major was also a massive bull who weighed over 2600 lbs. Nupar Cherrio was another of the massive bulls I remember from the 60s and early 70s. We found him in a commercial herd near Yorkton, Saskatchewan when he was 8 years old. He was probably one of the biggest bulls I have seen.  There were several others that I remember, and almost all of them were bred by breeders who lived off the beaten track and didn't use much Scottish breeding from that era.


What would you say Red Max Prince was frame score wise Grant? Was I undershooting at my guess of 4.5?

Russ

I'm not totally sure what frame he would have been. I am thinking he would have been a 5 to 5.5. He certainly wasn't small but he had a massive amount of body on his frame. Most people think that all the cattle back in the 60s were small framed. Most were, but there was some big framed cattle as well. Most of the bigger framed cattle were bred in herds that did not follow the fads of the day. Doug Morris who owned Scotsmorr at Saskatoon, told me that his dad went and found the biggest bull he could find to breed his cows, and this was the sire of Scotsmorr Fascinator and was a bull named Rock Rally. Doug showed me a dug out place near his barn where his dad would back the cow into so the bull could breed her. He thought this was ridiculous so he wanted to find a big bull. I remember the first time Gene McDonald from Shorthorn Country saw Scotsmorr Fascinator he stood behind the bull and the peak of his cowboy hat rested on Fascinators tail head. ( Gene wasn't super tall but he wasn't super short either!)  He said he was the biggest bull he had ever seen. Not only was he a big bull, he was also a very good bull. I have often wished there had been semen collected on Fascinator or even a son of his.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: justintime on April 12, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
Zero chance he was a 4 1/2 frame if he indeed weighed 2400.  Though take into consideration  the embellishments that typically follow this particular storyteller. 

And $6000, in 1969, Mercy.  I was curious so had to look it up: the average annual income in both Canada and the US in Ď69 was between $5,800 and $6,000. With the average price of Saskatchewan farmland at the time being $60 an acre, where would a Western Canadian farmer have acquired that kind of disposable income to drop 100 times that on a bull ?

Ryan, I really don't care if you believe what I say or not.  Despite what you think, there was some pretty good prices paid back in this era for breeding stock. I have spent my entire life in this business and I do remember a few things yet. So I plead guilty to being a bit of a storyteller, even if I don't consider myself to be one. Actually, I feel very fortunate to have been able to do the only thing I ever wanted to do( and contrary to what you think, I did have to buy my farm and I paid dearly for it). I have been able to make my living from raising cattle and have never actually had another job ( other than helping others at a few sales over the years)
 I remember my parents going to the Louada sale in Ontario in 1965 and they bought a son of Bapton Constructor at $5000. Another Saskatchewan breeder also went to this sale and he bought a bull at $12,500. He also bought 3 females between $2800 and $8000. The high selling bull in this sale was $30,000, and sold to Argentina.  The high selling Shorthorn bull at the 1968 Regina Bull Sale was $8000. I still have marked catalogs for almost all of the Regina Bull Sales from the early 50s through to when the sale ended just a few years ago. For many years this was the biggest bull sale in the world, and they sold bulls for 5 days from morning to night. I remember there was over 1000 Polled Hereford bulls there one year in the 70s,  and there was 14 bulls that sold at  $10,000 or more.I think the high price that year was $45,000 and very few bulls passed in the sale. In 1976, Crestdale Super Flag 14G sold in the Shorthorn sale at Regina Bull Sale for $41,500. And just like now, many breeders would place a higher price on an animal when someone was interested in it, and they did not want to sell it too bad. This was probably the case, when we asked for a price for Red Max Prince. He priced him and my dad decided he didn't want to pay that much for him. I don't think that is such a strange thing to happen. When I look back at some of the prices back 40-50 years ago ( or more) I really don't think prices for breeding stock have kept up with how costs have increased. Even in the 1990s when we also had a Charolais herd, we sold them privately out of the yard at your pick at $3000. We  sold 12-15 Charolais bulls for several years at this price. When I think of how much our costs have risen in the last 20 years, we are not keeping up with the prices we get for breeding stock today. For several years, we sold our Charolais bulls at $3000 and did not drop our price for the last few to sell. According to a inflation conversion table, $3000 in 1990 would be $5736 in 2019 dollars. We oftentimes sold 2-3 bulls at this price to some ranchers, and I remember one Montana rancher coming and taking 6 bulls at $3000 one year. Most of us don't think of this and still think $3000 is a good price today. My dad is 94 now, and still tries to keep up with what is happening in the cattle business. He attended our bull sale in March, and we averaged $4222 on the bulls. After the winter we had, I was pleased that we were able to sell them and was pleased with the sale average, My dad came to me after the sale was over, and said that compared to what we used to get, we were not keeping up with what our costs were. At first, I was a but upset that he was putting a damper on what I considered to be a good sale, but after thinking about this for awhile, I thought that he was probably closer to right than he was wrong. You can scratch your head on lots of things today, when you consider the price of grain, price of land, price of fertilizer and spray, and price of machinery. I don't understand this either. My neighbor just bought a new JD tractor on tracks and the largest air seeder they make ( I heard it was 76 feet wide). The cost of these two pieces of machinery was $1.7 million ( Canadian dollars) Another neighbor told me the interest alone on this purchase was $500 per day. He said that the guy who bought this machinery had told him this. Now how does anyone figure this makes any sense at any price you want to put on grain crops?
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: beebe on April 12, 2019, 10:48:57 PM
I would love to see a picture of Butterfield Krakatoa.  I have semen from him.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 12, 2019, 11:22:43 PM
I have a few calves coming from Krakatoa in about a month. Dan Stephenson thinks he can drum up a picture and was going to send one to me. In the mean time here is a daughter from Braun Ranch in Sask.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: shortybreeder on April 13, 2019, 07:21:11 AM
Zero chance he was a 4 1/2 frame if he indeed weighed 2400.  Though take into consideration  the embellishments that typically follow this particular storyteller. 

And $6000, in 1969, Mercy.  I was curious so had to look it up: the average annual income in both Canada and the US in Ď69 was between $5,800 and $6,000. With the average price of Saskatchewan farmland at the time being $60 an acre, where would a Western Canadian farmer have acquired that kind of disposable income to drop 100 times that on a bull ?

Ryan, I really don't care if you believe what I say or not.  Despite what you think, there was some pretty good prices paid back in this era for breeding stock. I have spent my entire life in this business and I do remember a few things yet. So I plead guilty to being a bit of a storyteller, even if I don't consider myself to be one. Actually, I feel very fortunate to have been able to do the only thing I ever wanted to do( and contrary to what you think, I did have to buy my farm and I paid dearly for it). I have been able to make my living from raising cattle and have never actually had another job ( other than helping others at a few sales over the years)
 I remember my parents going to the Louada sale in Ontario in 1965 and they bought a son of Bapton Constructor at $5000. Another Saskatchewan breeder also went to this sale and he bought a bull at $12,500. He also bought 3 females between $2800 and $8000. The high selling bull in this sale was $30,000, and sold to Argentina.  The high selling Shorthorn bull at the 1968 Regina Bull Sale was $8000. I still have marked catalogs for almost all of the Regina Bull Sales from the early 50s through to when the sale ended just a few years ago. For many years this was the biggest bull sale in the world, and they sold bulls for 5 days from morning to night. I remember there was over 1000 Polled Hereford bulls there one year in the 70s,  and there was 14 bulls that sold at  $10,000 or more.I think the high price that year was $45,000 and very few bulls passed in the sale. In 1976, Crestdale Super Flag 14G sold in the Shorthorn sale at Regina Bull Sale for $41,500. And just like now, many breeders would place a higher price on an animal when someone was interested in it, and they did not want to sell it too bad. This was probably the case, when we asked for a price for Red Max Prince. He priced him and my dad decided he didn't want to pay that much for him. I don't think that is such a strange thing to happen. When I look back at some of the prices back 40-50 years ago ( or more) I really don't think prices for breeding stock have kept up with how costs have increased. Even in the 1990s when we also had a Charolais herd, we sold them privately out of the yard at your pick at $3000. We  sold 12-15 Charolais bulls for several years at this price. When I think of how much our costs have risen in the last 20 years, we are not keeping up with the prices we get for breeding stock today. For several years, we sold our Charolais bulls at $3000 and did not drop our price for the last few to sell. According to a inflation conversion table, $3000 in 1990 would be $5736 in 2019 dollars. We oftentimes sold 2-3 bulls at this price to some ranchers, and I remember one Montana rancher coming and taking 6 bulls at $3000 one year. Most of us don't think of this and still think $3000 is a good price today. My dad is 94 now, and still tries to keep up with what is happening in the cattle business. He attended our bull sale in March, and we averaged $4222 on the bulls. After the winter we had, I was pleased that we were able to sell them and was pleased with the sale average, My dad came to me after the sale was over, and said that compared to what we used to get, we were not keeping up with what our costs were. At first, I was a but upset that he was putting a damper on what I considered to be a good sale, but after thinking about this for awhile, I thought that he was probably closer to right than he was wrong. You can scratch your head on lots of things today, when you consider the price of grain, price of land, price of fertilizer and spray, and price of machinery. I don't understand this either. My neighbor just bought a new JD tractor on tracks and the largest air seeder they make ( I heard it was 76 feet wide). The cost of these two pieces of machinery was $1.7 million ( Canadian dollars) Another neighbor told me the interest alone on this purchase was $500 per day. He said that the guy who bought this machinery had told him this. Now how does anyone figure this makes any sense at any price you want to put on grain crops?
Interest rates must be much higher in Canada, because with the figures you gave, your neighbor would've had to have bought that equipment with $0 down and 10.7% interest... a typical loan on $1.7M (CAD) machinery in the States would be around $280 (CAD) interest per day, assuming they had enough other collateral to avoid a down payment.

And in a quick Google search, I've noticed that the Bank of Canada rate is actually lower than the US fed fund rate by almost 1%. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on your financial institutions, but I'd say your neighbor is full of it claiming $500/day...
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: justintime on April 13, 2019, 07:52:42 AM
Zero chance he was a 4 1/2 frame if he indeed weighed 2400.  Though take into consideration  the embellishments that typically follow this particular storyteller. 

And $6000, in 1969, Mercy.  I was curious so had to look it up: the average annual income in both Canada and the US in Ď69 was between $5,800 and $6,000. With the average price of Saskatchewan farmland at the time being $60 an acre, where would a Western Canadian farmer have acquired that kind of disposable income to drop 100 times that on a bull ?

Ryan, I really don't care if you believe what I say or not.  Despite what you think, there was some pretty good prices paid back in this era for breeding stock. I have spent my entire life in this business and I do remember a few things yet. So I plead guilty to being a bit of a storyteller, even if I don't consider myself to be one. Actually, I feel very fortunate to have been able to do the only thing I ever wanted to do( and contrary to what you think, I did have to buy my farm and I paid dearly for it). I have been able to make my living from raising cattle and have never actually had another job ( other than helping others at a few sales over the years)
 I remember my parents going to the Louada sale in Ontario in 1965 and they bought a son of Bapton Constructor at $5000. Another Saskatchewan breeder also went to this sale and he bought a bull at $12,500. He also bought 3 females between $2800 and $8000. The high selling bull in this sale was $30,000, and sold to Argentina.  The high selling Shorthorn bull at the 1968 Regina Bull Sale was $8000. I still have marked catalogs for almost all of the Regina Bull Sales from the early 50s through to when the sale ended just a few years ago. For many years this was the biggest bull sale in the world, and they sold bulls for 5 days from morning to night. I remember there was over 1000 Polled Hereford bulls there one year in the 70s,  and there was 14 bulls that sold at  $10,000 or more.I think the high price that year was $45,000 and very few bulls passed in the sale. In 1976, Crestdale Super Flag 14G sold in the Shorthorn sale at Regina Bull Sale for $41,500. And just like now, many breeders would place a higher price on an animal when someone was interested in it, and they did not want to sell it too bad. This was probably the case, when we asked for a price for Red Max Prince. He priced him and my dad decided he didn't want to pay that much for him. I don't think that is such a strange thing to happen. When I look back at some of the prices back 40-50 years ago ( or more) I really don't think prices for breeding stock have kept up with how costs have increased. Even in the 1990s when we also had a Charolais herd, we sold them privately out of the yard at your pick at $3000. We  sold 12-15 Charolais bulls for several years at this price. When I think of how much our costs have risen in the last 20 years, we are not keeping up with the prices we get for breeding stock today. For several years, we sold our Charolais bulls at $3000 and did not drop our price for the last few to sell. According to a inflation conversion table, $3000 in 1990 would be $5736 in 2019 dollars. We oftentimes sold 2-3 bulls at this price to some ranchers, and I remember one Montana rancher coming and taking 6 bulls at $3000 one year. Most of us don't think of this and still think $3000 is a good price today. My dad is 94 now, and still tries to keep up with what is happening in the cattle business. He attended our bull sale in March, and we averaged $4222 on the bulls. After the winter we had, I was pleased that we were able to sell them and was pleased with the sale average, My dad came to me after the sale was over, and said that compared to what we used to get, we were not keeping up with what our costs were. At first, I was a but upset that he was putting a damper on what I considered to be a good sale, but after thinking about this for awhile, I thought that he was probably closer to right than he was wrong. You can scratch your head on lots of things today, when you consider the price of grain, price of land, price of fertilizer and spray, and price of machinery. I don't understand this either. My neighbor just bought a new JD tractor on tracks and the largest air seeder they make ( I heard it was 76 feet wide). The cost of these two pieces of machinery was $1.7 million ( Canadian dollars) Another neighbor told me the interest alone on this purchase was $500 per day. He said that the guy who bought this machinery had told him this. Now how does anyone figure this makes any sense at any price you want to put on grain crops?
Interest rates must be much higher in Canada, because with the figures you gave, your neighbor would've had to have bought that equipment with $0 down and 10.7% interest... a typical loan on $1.7M (CAD) machinery in the States would be around $280 (CAD) interest per day, assuming they had enough other collateral to avoid a down payment.

And in a quick Google search, I've noticed that the Bank of Canada rate is actually lower than the US fed fund rate by almost 1%. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on your financial institutions, but I'd say your neighbor is full of it claiming $500/day...

You are probably correct. I did not do any calculations as I have no idea what interest rates are on machinery, or anything else really. I only heard this second hand, but I have heard it now from two people, both of which are very good farmers and usually not people to make stuff up. In any event, I do know that the $1.7 million is what the price was, which by itself makes my knees weak to think about. I wish my neighbor well, but he has now purchased over $4 million in machinery in the last 6 months. One of the things I have always thought was that how differently most people consider the price of a good herd bull and most everything else we have to purchase. In 2015, we sold a bull in our sale for $32,000 which is by far the highest price I have ever received at auction. After the sale, I thanked the runner up bidder for bidding so high on my bull. He looked at me and said" I really didn't bid that much... my baler cost me more than that!  I just thought he was a good bull and deserved to sell for what he was worth". I thanks this man again and told him I liked how he thought.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: beebe on April 13, 2019, 07:55:50 AM
I have a few calves coming from Krakatoa in about a month. Dan Stephenson thinks he can drum up a picture and was going to send one to me. In the mean time here is a daughter from Braun Ranch in Sask.
Thanks for the picture, I like her that encourages me.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: justintime on April 13, 2019, 08:23:01 AM
I have a few calves coming from Krakatoa in about a month. Dan Stephenson thinks he can drum up a picture and was going to send one to me. In the mean time here is a daughter from Braun Ranch in Sask.
Thanks for the picture, I like her that encourages me.

I know I have a picture of Krakotoa someplace as well. Unfortunately I do not have it on my computer so I will have to try to find it in some old magazines and scan it. I remember this bull very well and wish I could scan my mental picture of him to my computer. I think you would really like him. He certainly was a bull that made them thick and easy fleshing. Far ahead of his time!
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: 764wdchev on April 13, 2019, 08:30:11 AM
The price of corn in 1973 was $2.50/bushel, in today's dollars that would be $14.78/bushel. Feeder calves were less than .50/lbs, but using .50 that would equal 2.42 today.

The world wants cheap food. Even if it takes expensive equipment to produce it. So far in history, farmers have little control over prices. Maybe one day, when we have consolidated into very large farms, the market can be controlled by the producer. Deere and CNH control prices, because while they are producers, they don't have a neighbor that will sell it for half what it is worth. It also helps that their product isn't sold on the board. 
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: -XBAR- on April 13, 2019, 09:52:48 AM
Producers do control the market.  They consciously choose to participate in a market where vast overproduction takes place.   I realize itís an easy option to stay home and take the tractor another round but when everybody realizes thatís the easiest life option, vast over production takes place.  And then they cry to the givernment that prices arenít keeping up.  As if they didnít realize the market was OVERSATURATED when they CHOSE to Ďfarm.í 


JIT asks, ďhow does it make any sense to be paying that kind of money for equipment considering grain prices.Ē

Well it doesnít.   Just as it doesnít make sense to drive a Ferrari to commute to work.  But for rich people, it doesnít have to make Ďcents.í    Return on investment isnít the goal or even a consideration; having the newest coolest shitt to impress passerbyís is the goal.  Just as paying $6000 for bulls in 1969 was.  Weaned calves were bringing a quarter and mightíve weighed 400 pounds at this time// thatís $80 bucks.

Itís not so much that modern prices arenít keeping up as it is that the affluent WHO WERE DISTORTING MARKET PRICES AT THE TIME have now moved on to embracing different status symbols.  Though, like with the buyer of JITs bluebook bull that vanished into the abyss, there are still a few of these old money types still out there who are willing to sprinkle their loot in Agís direction for one last name drop.  But these folks are few and far between and becoming fewer every day.   As far as seedstock is concerned, I think we re getting closer to aligning market price with INTRINSIC VALUE than we ever have.   The more generations the white-collar folks are removed from the farm, the more alignment thereíll be between market and intrinsic values.



Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: shortybreeder on April 13, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
Producers do control the market.  They consciously choose to participate in a market where vast overproduction takes place.   I realize itís an easy option to stay home and take the tractor another round but when everybody realizes thatís the easiest life option, vast over production takes place.  And then they cry to the givernment that prices arenít keeping up.  As if they didnít realize the market was OVERSATURATED when they CHOSE to Ďfarm.í 


JIT asks, ďhow does it make any sense to be paying that kind of money for equipment considering grain prices.Ē

Well it doesnít.   Just as it doesnít make sense to drive a Ferrari to commute to work.  But for rich people, it doesnít have to make Ďcents.í    Return on investment isnít the goal or even a consideration; having the newest coolest shitt to impress passerbyís is the goal.  Just as paying $6000 for bulls in 1969 was.  Weaned calves were bringing a quarter and mightíve weighed 400 pounds at this time// thatís $80 bucks.

Itís not so much that modern prices arenít keeping up as it is that the affluent WHO WERE DISTORTING MARKET PRICES AT THE TIME have now moved on to embracing different status symbols.  Though, like with the buyer of JITs bluebook bull that vanished into the abyss, there are still a few of these old money types still out there who are willing to sprinkle their loot in Agís direction for one last name drop.  But these folks are few and far between and becoming fewer every day.   As far as seedstock is concerned, I think we re getting closer to aligning market price with INTRINSIC VALUE than we ever have.   The more generations the white-collar folks are removed from the farm, the more alignment thereíll be between market and intrinsic values.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think you're a touch off the mark on the bolded part. Truly rich people don't blow their money on this stuff, and people who gain actual wealth care very much about ROI. It's the wannabe rich people buying that fancy equipment and cool "shitt" to show off--they just aren't about to show you the balance sheets that come with it. I think this is an important point for people (especially younger people like myself) to keep in mind so that they can avoid trying to "keep up with the Jones's"
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: knabe on April 13, 2019, 01:47:07 PM
Truly rich people don't blow their money on this stuff, and people who gain actual wealth care very much about ROI. It's the wannabe rich people buying that fancy equipment and cool "shitt" to show off--they just aren't about to show you the balance sheets that come with it. I think this is an important point for people (especially younger people like myself) to keep in mind so that they can avoid trying to "keep up with the Jones's"


i'm thinking maybe they buy mega yachts and large plots of land instead.  walmart kids have lots of land with lots of cattle. football team owners seem to keep up with each other and so does the largest temp agency in the US, he's got the priciest angus herd and all the best people working for him.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: beebe on April 13, 2019, 07:33:36 PM
I have a few calves coming from Krakatoa in about a month. Dan Stephenson thinks he can drum up a picture and was going to send one to me. In the mean time here is a daughter from Braun Ranch in Sask.
Does anybody have any birth weight/ calving ease information on him?
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 14, 2019, 03:40:21 PM
I will know more in a month. CSA has 18 calves from 4 herds with 83 lb average and 103 index (lighter than average) born since 2007. His BW and CE are both situated that he should be a calving ease type bull, but did see a few pulls on first calf heifers in the data.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: beebe on April 14, 2019, 04:25:31 PM
Thanks, Phillip Butterfield told me that he would be easier calving than Able Seaman.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 15, 2019, 08:54:05 PM
A couple more that were sent to me.

If anyone has pics of these bulls as well that would be great

NVS Valley Shadrack
High Time
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: E6 Durhams on April 15, 2019, 10:27:49 PM
Ridge Runner looks like an old school Maine lol. But with a shot of milking shorthorn.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: E6 Durhams on April 15, 2019, 10:30:54 PM
And CF Total........ looks like a total train wreck. What the hell was everybody smoking back then? The bad hashish? Wut in tarnation was going on
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 15, 2019, 11:34:44 PM
I think Ridge Runner is mostly Dual purpose by pedigree (Columbus son). Total was probably not as extreme as he looks as most pictures of that era were taken with hips towards camera to give the appearance of more hip height, with bull elevated or camera person low down to the ground and bellies shaved again to give appearance of size. And again the industry is always in the newest fad - I ask the same question about a lot of the show/popular cattle I see today - what the hell IS everybody smoking? The cattle of the 80's early 90's don't hold the monopoly on poor structure.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: E6 Durhams on April 16, 2019, 12:35:03 AM
Totally agree. Trends change and I was just trying to have a laugh. Those are way before my time. Show cattle is about extremes and that is ok. Iíve stood behind some club calf bulls and was in awe of how wide their ass is. To each their own. If show cattle is a way in for the youth to get into Ag, Iím ok with that.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: oakview on April 16, 2019, 08:39:10 AM
Ridge Runner was indeed 100% dual purpose, Milking Shorthorn if you will.  He was a pretty good bull in his day, as were so many other bulls at every end of the spectrum in every era.  There will probably come a day when he's "good" again.  Believe it or not, there was a time when Leader 21 was laughed at, before and after he became popular.  What's old is new again. 
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: GM on April 16, 2019, 11:30:57 AM
Things do have a tendency to come back around.  I just canít imagine the giants ever walking the earth again.  I have a Drovers Journal from 84 and itís just unreal. 
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: oakview on April 16, 2019, 11:49:59 AM
One of my favorite ways to spend some free time is to look through some of the 60+ years worth of various livestock magazines I have.  It is absolutely mind boggling to see the changes in types, both livestock and people, over the years.  Since this seems to be a somewhat show oriented site, I have to mention the 50+ year old guide to showing cattle I have.  The author states that it is a good idea to wash your show string once before going to the fair to get them used to the water.  How many of you know what a liner is?  Orvus?  Horn weights?  Have any of you taken a nurse cow to the fair and let your 2 year old show bull nurse her?   Nearly 50 years ago at the old Iowa Royal Shorthorn Sale in Des Moines we would rinse off the mud balls on our cattle underneath the sale pavilion.  Most people don't even know there were water faucets under there.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: Willow Springs on April 16, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Krakatoa as a 2 year old.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: beebe on April 16, 2019, 09:16:57 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: GM on April 16, 2019, 09:38:01 PM
Hereís a pic of High Time, assuming itís the High Time youíre referring to.  He was full irish by Improver 3rd and was used by Waukuru a little in the early 80ís.
Title: Re: Looking for old Shorthorn bull pics
Post by: knabe on April 17, 2019, 01:17:02 PM
Its too bad his rear end doesnít look like his front end in spite of the camera angle to accentuate that eraís emphasis.