low input smokies in Nebraska?

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librarian

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Is there an all forage, prairie hay winter feeding, producer in Nebraska using a moderate Charolaise bull on pasture calving Angus cows? I am looking for 2 heifer calves to use with a dun Galloway bull next year. In a perfect world, dark brown with wide muzzles and backs.
Thanks for any help.
 

Tallcool1

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Send Freddy a PM.  He is in North Central Nebraska, and raises Angus and Charolais cattle as well as some club calves.  He will have what you are looking for.
 

crystalcreek

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LIBRARIAN it took me some digging, but I finally found this just for you. 
 

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crystalcreek

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Another one for you, LIBRARIAN.
 

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librarian

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Thanks, CC. I really appreciate that. I have been spending a lot of time looking over fences and studying the cattle around my new home. The low percent of smoky cows seem to have a high percent of extra nice calves. I know they've had good results with Galloway/Charolais crosses in Canada... So I'm going to try it with smokies and try to line up on a heavier grass fed hanging weight on this good prairie grass.
I'm thinking maybe the NY grass I had cows on before is so full of water that a larger animal just can't eat enough hill grass to grow that heavy in under 3 years. Thus the low weight targets. With more nutrition/bite maybe I can build in more frame?
Why stick Angus in there? To make it 3/4 British.
 

crystalcreek

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Would Red Angus x Char work for your program?  Or are you trying to keep with the silver side of the color spectrum as a fit for your Galloway?  I really like that big group of HooDoo Red Angus x Char heifers I saw in that last big sale offering by one of these big outfits..... 

Factor in some magic milk from the Galloway and I think you're about to build the perfect cow.  At least up there where you're at, not down here where it's 105.
 

crystalcreek

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There was a similar article about the red angus x char more recently.  I'll see if I can find that one for you, too.
 

crystalcreek

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Red Crosses
 

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crystalcreek

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Something that stumps me is why Char bull over angus female makes such nice F1's, but flip it the other way, Angus bull over Char female, and the results aren't so impressive.  Both are 50 percent of the genetics of each so it should be the same end product, but it doesn't seem to work that way.  Why? 
 

librarian

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I don't know about the differences between reciprocal crosses either. An Old Timer told me the same thing about the Char bull on Angus cows, though.

I tried the Galloway/Shorthorn cross both ways this year and the calves were almost indistinguishable.  Guess time will tell.

Red Angus would probably be a better, functionally safer, genetic foundation for the cross.  I keep hearing stories about Red Galloway bulls being delivered at night to Red Angus breeders back in the incipient days..and other stories of red Shorthorn heifers being delivered to Red Angus breeders in the same era.  Legend, Myth, Lie or Truth, it sure would work in my favor. I just like that mule deer color, but maybe I could get some honey colored cattle going.

Thanks for the links and for giving it thought.
 

librarian

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Freddy, I studied your website trying to learn something about Charolais and the cows you have.
Looks like daughters of this 9108 bull should be the right kind. Probably why the semen is $100? http://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd2.asp?idProduct=1934&id2nd=35
What breed do you think he works best on as a cowmaking cross?
 

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Mark H

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LT Unlimted Ease is an early 1990s calving ease bull.  Nothing is remarkable about him except he was easy calving and put out some good cows.  Generally speaking any of the good Bluegrass sons available such as WR Big Ben  (for calving ease)or WR Wrangler (calving ease and growth) are better bulls. If you want easy fleshing nothing beats Full French for a Charolais.  A Full french bull like  Hamm Mogo U23 should fill the bill as I am very familiar with this bulls blood lines and they work good on small British cows.  I would talk to some of the breeders in Nebraska on what works best to produce easy fleshing Angus Charolais Crosses since most of then raise Chars and Angus.  Note that most of these cattle are aimed for the feedlot not grass finishing.
What size carcass do you wish to produce?  How much marbling?  external fat?  What kinds of grass do you have available in different times of the year?  These are important questions on  coming up with the ideal grass animal for you. If you want a leaner, faster growing animal then Charolais ay work for you.  remember all the European breeds as grass breeds in Europe.  they just produce a leaner product.  If you want Marbling and a diluter gene then look at the Murray Grey or even using a Hereford.
 

Freddy

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To start with I have to disagree with Mark H on LT UNLIMITED EASE 9108 not being  a very exceptional Charolais sire , were not very many calving ease bulls with adequate growth to go with his calving ease ...The look's really didn't blow you away ,but they were functional especially for the PB breeders wanting a bull to change some big birth weight plain Charolais cow's ....Just remember 25 year's ago is a long time back on the Charolais breed .....ALSO  50 years ago 80% of the Charolais  being used to raise more Charolais  had at least  1/4  Brahma in them .....There also was the RED Charolais  because you could buy them cheaper ....IN MY OPINION THEY WERE AS GOOD AS ANY NOW A DAY'S ,BUT NO ONE WANTED THEM THEN be cause of different market ..... Back to 9108  M301930  I feel very fortunate to have used him for females at that time ,and not knowing that in 25 year's he would be one of the top 15% for INTRAMUSCULAR trait ....Back then it wasn't a concern of any ones ....With 9108 and FREDDY 178 my cow herd has a strong influence of the IM trait ,sometimes I have some luck ....For your crossbred females the best options is your red or black angus ......  But look for the old blood line cattle in both breeds because they have been chasing these big type cattle to raise these 1500 lb. fat's and in the process have mixed other breed's in them to make  this happen.... All those genetic problems in the ANGUS  wasn't from the Angus but other breed's used ....
 

Mark H

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Freddy,

25 years ago was 1985.  The Brahma influence was a a 1960's and earlier concern.  By 1985 we had plenty of french influence and cattle graded up from British cows so the Brahma influence was very low by then.  We had plenty of calving ease bulls (purebred and french) around back then that did a decent enough of a job to retain bull customers and build solid purebred herds.  The bull that everyone  I know likes from the same period and shows up in pedigrees around the world is LHD Mr Perfect Y416.  He did everything right despite not being red hot in anything in particular. 9108 is a good bull to calve out heifers and build a cow herd with.  His bull calves just didn't leave the pen soon enough for me.  I think better LT bulls exist now days.  I would pay big bucks for him.  I my opinion Rio Bravo was a better all round bull.
If you like red Charolais and calving ease consider the bull srk canyon: http://www.semex.com/di/beef/i2?lang=en&beef=view&view2=MC339579e Not the people that raised this bull are stockmen that do not raise a bull or cow just to be big.  Either the cow or bull works or they go-period.
 

librarian

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Thanks for helping me learn more about Charolais. Commercially, it seems like we need to move beyond breed predjudices . Within breed predjudices are very useful points of reference, I think, because usually these preferences stem from real experience in particular management environments. The accuracies on 9108 were very high, whereas for the French bulls not so much... The marbling in the French bull was very interesting to me and the lower growth might be better suited to all forage production.  It the very good growth on 9108 is the trait I would seek to transmit, without compromising marbling.
I am wondering if growth can be injected PROPORTIONAL to the frame size of the British derived cows? This may be a very stupid question, but I pose it anyway.
The object is to blend more growth into an old style Angus cow type, just as Freddy advised. Not an extreme overnight sensation growth rate, but just enough to balance a bump in frame size. This potential increase in eventual hanging weight is built into to the F1 cow rather than sought after from a terminal cross. The terminal cross, in this instance, swings back to the security of Galloway grass fattening ability.
Does this approach make sense....formerly, I thought Shorthorn should impart the growth factor, but now I begin to think there are Charolais that may be more predictable.
 

Mark H

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Your last email clarifies things quite a bit.  Since you want to emphasize marbling LT Unlimited ease 9108 isn't a bad bull to use for this trait.  He does have a son at accelerated Easy Pro: http://www.accelgen.com/catalog/semen-beef/014ch05011/english/beef
The old ABS bull M6 Gain and grade would work here as well: https://www.bovine-elite.com/charepd2.asp?idProduct=1954&id2nd=30  He has better growth numbers than Easy Pro but not as easy calving.
Neither Easy Pro or Gain and Grade will improve REA.  To do that we must go the number one marbling bull on the summary alive One Penny Blanco Flash : http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=1CH00966&lang=EN  Note he is more terminal with good growth.  Has put out some decent heifers.
None of thee bulls are over $ 25.00
Just remember these carcass traits were collected on feedlot finished steers.  How they do on grass is anybodies guess.  The biggest grass raised charolais breed is Rodgers Bar in Mississippi.  They commonly get 5 ADG on bulls in grass fed trials due to their lush grass conditions. These bulls are meant to be used on Branus and tiger stripe cows.  If they grass finished they are going for a lean animal.  think Laura's Lean and you get the picture.
 

librarian

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"Grass fattening is just feedlotting in another form the same cattle selection principles apply"
Aussie said this in another thread and I have to agree that this is the trend I see in the evolution of grass finishing that is escalating in the Northeast. Regardless of the end weight target, in a climate that necessitates winter feeding, "grass fed" animals are being held in feeding areas and provided with a high carbohydrate non-grain diet.
So, selecting for an animal that will, sooner or later, fatten on grass on pasture does not meet the stocker market requirement. I want to sell stockers that will finish choice.
So, the cycle of chasing growth begins again, with the same emphasis on feed conversion that conventional finishers look for when corn prices are high. Just my thinking.
That 6424 bull sure looks the part. He has an 86 lb BW. To me, a heifer should be able to handle that. Better to chase MCE than low birth weight.
If you know, did the bulls behind 6424 also have a similarly moderate BW?
I have retired my original Angus cows and kept their Shorthorn x daughters as replacements.
They all did fine with 85lb first calves. I guess a Char cross on them might get me the cow I want without buying in new females.
But I don't want to slip in some 120 lb BW genetics from previous Charolais generations.
 
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