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Offline looking4champions

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Market Steer Show Judging
« on: October 29, 2018, 02:32:17 PM »
I'm just curious to know what is the opinion of the judging thats being done across the nation.  I'm starting to see more and more animals that are flashy with a bunch of hair , groomed to have an explosive "appearing" quarter, so forth and so on.  Judges don't even feel the animals to evaluate market readiness. Then they give oral reasons, which only helps them to hang themselves with their own inconsistency from class to class. No mention of the finish, feel... Just curious to see whats other peoples opinion.
Ecclesiastes 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Offline Gargan

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2018, 04:18:52 PM »
Agree.  It's becoming how well they're fit mostly. If you wanna get a good look, better have them fit to the 9s and they better be attractive because not often are they getting a hand laid on them for the most part.
Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.  -Ronald reagan

Offline looking4champions

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2018, 06:28:59 PM »
You know, don't get me wrong fitting is a part of it. But..... The champion is supposed to be the one that best combines it all. (Soundness, conformation, and most important market readiness). However, when I see a steer win a market show that is not finished but pretty. I'm confused.  A lot of these new school judges cant sort steers. 
Ecclesiastes 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Offline Jacob B

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 03:15:49 PM »
I don't mind the judges not fondling every inch of a steer in every class. I've never seen a buyer in the stands at the stockyards feel one down all over before they bid on em for a packer. But I do like seeing at least some of it in the final drive or if they are close. It's all a guess for the most part. If we were really concerned, ultra sound em all before they go to the ring. I find visual aspects of finish generally are pretty close to what u feel, but not always. Some do suprise ya from time to time

Offline Jacob B

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2018, 03:21:37 PM »
I have seen a judge feel all the way down all four legs. Not sure what she was trying to accomplish with that. She hated anything with even a spec of hair on it. Making em pretty with some hair can only do so much. A bad ones still bad even with a bunch of hair.

Offline looking4champions

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 02:01:54 AM »
***I've never seen a buyer in the stands at the stockyards feel one down all over before they bid on em for a packer.

I bet you have never seen a steer in the ring at the stockyards with his hair fluffed out and full of showsheen either. LOL  I agree, some steers you can look at and just tell they are NOT market ready.  And even evaluating market readiness has visual indications.  All I'm saying is there needs to be more consistency.  I have seen a judge take a steer that was the best looking one in the class as far as appearance and put him dead last in the class because he was not market ready.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:11:30 AM by looking4champions »
Ecclesiastes 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Offline GazCattle

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 02:09:55 AM »
My sons prospect steer finished 2nd in class to the reserve breed champion. In the judges reasons he looked at my son and said son, if you just had hair today.  Ugh!

Offline Jacob B

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 01:59:58 PM »
I have sorted plenty of awfully good looking steers towards the bottom of a class because they aren't finished at a terminal show. Prospects are just prospects at that point n nothing else. Pretty sad judge to tell a kid or anyone that there steer needed more hair to be finished. I would have to think that poor judgement needs to stick to preview or prospect shows. In the end, I don't eat hair.

Offline Jacob B

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 02:02:34 PM »
And I have seen more than a few steers all fluffed out at the Stockyards around here, after the shows they gotta go somewhere. The better ones sell better. The lesser steers don't bring as much, haven't seen much sheen in em though. Haha. Maybe if I spray down on their way into the ring I can see if they bring more sometime

Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 10:11:41 PM »
I guess I can't say that I am seeing that.  However, the shows I have been to, watched online, or my kids have showed at have primarily been bigger shows.  State Fairs, Kansas City, Denver, shoot even our last County Fair.  The judges have all handled every steer and some multiple times.

I believe that judges will differ in their philosophy when judging terminal shows...especially small "terminal" shows such as County Fair types.  Some judges that are doing a terminal show will have Rule #1...they gotta be fat.  Other judges will have Rule #1...they gotta be good.  Personally, I would rather a judge pick the best steer and set aside the finish in these smaller shows.  Face it people, many times there isn't a real good one there. 

I have always been much more concerned with judges that have to "keep a lot of people happy" than I have judges that don't have the ability to do the job.  Just my opinion.

Offline looking4champions

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2018, 06:58:23 PM »
Personally, I would rather a judge pick the best steer and set aside the finish in these smaller shows.  Face it people, many times there isn't a real good one there.

I agree with your assessment of the various shows and variance in size. I disagree with setting aside the finish.  I would rather see a mediocre steer thats finished win than a great steer thats not finished. I say that because we all know that the majority of folks in the steer game can pick a good steer. Their budget often dictates what they buy.  The real work is in the feeding and getting that animal bloomed and finished at the right time. Everybody knows that and if it were not the case, there would not be so many questions about feed, supplements, hair products, how to get more gain etc.  You hardly see questions about how to pick a good steer.....  That's what the judge should be doing anyway at a terminal show. Sorting through steers to select the one that best meets all requirements (soundness, finish, comformation, bloom, etc.).  Lets not forget what its all about.  Save the unfinished stuff for the prospect show and toward the end of the class at the market show.
Ecclesiastes 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Offline Jacob B

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 07:38:05 PM »
I have only judged county fairs n small jackpots...you are correct, there are times it is hard to find a decent one to pick at that level. Have show all over this country, at the top level, those good steers are all finished, there is an Incredibly fine line between degrees there most of the time.  Finish has to be part of the equation when at a terminal show in my opinion. If I'm told that I'm evaluating finished cattle that hang, get cut up, n packed there is no way I could pick a calf that doesn't meet the standards the people that hired me asked me to judge by. If it's a preview show, it's a whole different deal.

Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 05:38:37 PM »
Personally, I would rather a judge pick the best steer and set aside the finish in these smaller shows.  Face it people, many times there isn't a real good one there.

I agree with your assessment of the various shows and variance in size. I disagree with setting aside the finish.  I would rather see a mediocre steer thats finished win than a great steer thats not finished. I say that because we all know that the majority of folks in the steer game can pick a good steer. Their budget often dictates what they buy.  The real work is in the feeding and getting that animal bloomed and finished at the right time. Everybody knows that and if it were not the case, there would not be so many questions about feed, supplements, hair products, how to get more gain etc.  You hardly see questions about how to pick a good steer.....  That's what the judge should be doing anyway at a terminal show. Sorting through steers to select the one that best meets all requirements (soundness, finish, comformation, bloom, etc.).  Lets not forget what its all about.  Save the unfinished stuff for the prospect show and toward the end of the class at the market show.

I certainly respect your opinion in this post, and believe that geography plays a big part in what you are saying. 

I see something quite different where we are.  Yes, there are a lot of questions about growing hair, what to feed, getting them to gain, etc..  There are very few questions about how to pick a good steer.  In reality, people DON'T know how to pick a good steer.  The majority of steers we see at the county type shows are not good steers, and never were.  They were bad in their structure the day the family bought them.  They were way to hard made the day they bought them.  They were bad haired the day they bought them.  Then that family can't get them to gain, starts asking about supplements for soundness, starts looking for the magic pill to get them hairy, and on and on.  The cattle don't perform because they aren't even feedlot quality.  They are fuzzed up babies that someone put some work into and the buyer got "fooled".

I believe that so often when a judge is handling one of these County Fairs, it becomes the lesser of all evils.  Should he use a steer that is fat but can't walk and could have never survived the commercial setting of an actual feed lot?  Or should you use a steer that is structurally sound but is 75 pounds short of being 12 o'clock in his finish?

I know that the answer is one of personal preference.  Yes, market ready is certainly a part of judging a terminal show.  However, so is structure and soundness.  I am by no means saying that you are wrong, because you aren't wrong.  I am not right either.  It is simply a matter of personal preference.

Good post by the way.

Offline vc

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 06:52:12 PM »
I bet in 10 years someone will start a thread just like this one, I will also bet 10 years ago someone started a thread just like this one.

My boys never did win it all, they may have finished in the top of their class, won their division a few times and always competed with the top steers. They always had calves that were finished, put a good product on the table and had repeat buyers for that reason. We only had one steer go to packer (the others were custom processed) , A Full Flush calf, he came back as a carcass to the local meat cutter for processing, stamped "USDA Prime", one of our proudest moments.

Believe it or not all though we are in So-Cal the livestock show is pretty darn competitive, 300+ hogs, 100+ lambs and 60-100 steers (#'s always depend on the prices from the last year) They, on the most part get quality judges, the judge usually is on a 2 year contract and really do not mind coming to DEl Mar in July. A few times the judges were not up to the task and did not return for their second year.
As far as steer judges go you can tell by their reasons as well as if they put the hands on the animal what way they will judge. Do not put their hands on them, you are going to get the prettiest steer that wins, if they preach finish and really study the animal it will be pretty but finished. If they talk structure, and sort that way consistently then the winner will be sound enough. When they jump from soundness in one class to finished in another and and give up one for the other, that is where I think it sucks. If I can follow the judge from class to class and they stay consistent, from class one to champion drive I'm happy. I don't always agree with them but at least they had a type and stayed consistent.
If a judge has not touched the steers all day, that is fine. It is when a class has a pretty steer that is not finished and the judge has put their hands on the calves all day, but in that class they do not put their hands on any of the steers, and the unfinished calf is at the top, that's when you want to call BS.

Offline Tallcool1

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Re: Market Steer Show Judging
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 10:16:44 PM »
I bet in 10 years someone will start a thread just like this one, I will also bet 10 years ago someone started a thread just like this one.

My boys never did win it all, they may have finished in the top of their class, won their division a few times and always competed with the top steers. They always had calves that were finished, put a good product on the table and had repeat buyers for that reason. We only had one steer go to packer (the others were custom processed) , A Full Flush calf, he came back as a carcass to the local meat cutter for processing, stamped "USDA Prime", one of our proudest moments.

Believe it or not all though we are in So-Cal the livestock show is pretty darn competitive, 300+ hogs, 100+ lambs and 60-100 steers (#'s always depend on the prices from the last year) They, on the most part get quality judges, the judge usually is on a 2 year contract and really do not mind coming to DEl Mar in July. A few times the judges were not up to the task and did not return for their second year.
As far as steer judges go you can tell by their reasons as well as if they put the hands on the animal what way they will judge. Do not put their hands on them, you are going to get the prettiest steer that wins, if they preach finish and really study the animal it will be pretty but finished. If they talk structure, and sort that way consistently then the winner will be sound enough. When they jump from soundness in one class to finished in another and and give up one for the other, that is where I think it sucks. If I can follow the judge from class to class and they stay consistent, from class one to champion drive I'm happy. I don't always agree with them but at least they had a type and stayed consistent.
If a judge has not touched the steers all day, that is fine. It is when a class has a pretty steer that is not finished and the judge has put their hands on the calves all day, but in that class they do not put their hands on any of the steers, and the unfinished calf is at the top, that's when you want to call BS.

VC, I know darn well that you guys were good feeders.  Actually, that is what we did well too.  Most of our success feeding revolved around selection.  We bought steers that were easy to feed.  We didn't buy hard doing steers, or steers that required a lot of attention at the bunk.

I can't say that in 8 years of showing I have ever seen a terminal show that the judge(s) didn't handle every single steer.  I know it must happen because people talk about it.  I have just never ever seen it.

 

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