Marketing do these success stories give lessons?

I really don't know anything about the Heatwave bull except what I read and see on SP. So what I have learned is he is a TH carrier, his daughters don't milk, he's hard calving and produces a lot of show steer winners.(there was also a thread about him being a cripple and a not very flattering photo)
And yet the demand is high for his semen, he's been cloned and now you can get semen from several heatwaves. Seems to me the marketing to sell something like this must be phenomenal! Stealing a line from Cattlefarmer65 on another thread  "he could sell an ice box to an Eskimo, then go back the following year and convince him he needed more".
This in a lot of ways outdoes the Angus Association and I always thought they were the ultimate in marketing but they are not marketing the above traits! It would be like selling houses with leaky roofs set on bad foundations in a bad neighborhood and not being able to fill the demand. Go figure.
So I have some low land I could sell and it would be nice to increase the demand for my cattle so which marketing school do these people use?

Does your low land produce something valuable and make money?

Heatwave has sired more showring winners than any other sire in history.
PPl that raise cattle to sell for the sole purpose to win have make a boatload
of money off of Heatwave calves, selling them to ppl that want their kids in
the winner's circle and many of them have gotten there with a Heatwave
steer.

This is why Heatwave semen sells; it has a purpose; granted, that purpose is
very specific and very specialized, but it is real.  In your research on Heatwave,
did you check on how many years Heatwave calves have been winning?  It
seems to make some sense to me that no one could falsely promote something
useless for as many years as Heatwave has been used.......

As far as how much marketing was dont on HW himself I dont think it was any more or less then a full page ad like most of Lautners bulls get in the beginning. But when you start siring winners there is more of a demand. Then when a bull keeps siring winners the bull stays longer. HW is a 2000 model so it seems like a lot of marketing has been done but I think word of mouth(winning) sells him.
Hype on a unproven bull may work for a year or two to get high dollar semen sold but if he does not produce then no amount of marketing keeps the demand up.

Jenny said:

Does your low land produce something valuable and make money?

Heatwave has sired more showring winners than any other sire in history.
PPl that raise cattle to sell for the sole purpose to win have make a boatload
of money off of Heatwave calves, selling them to ppl that want their kids in
the winner's circle and many of them have gotten there with a Heatwave
steer.

This is why Heatwave semen sells; it has a purpose; granted, that purpose is
very specific and very specialized, but it is real.  In your research on Heatwave,
did you check on how many years Heatwave calves have been winning?  It
seems to make some sense to me that no one could falsely promote something
useless for as many years as Heatwave has been used.......

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My low land is worth somewhere between $16,000 acre to $80,000 an acre.Depends on the size of the parcel I sell.Is it valuable depends if you value wetlands, subdivisions etc.
I can't disagree with what you say but demand really doesn't always make it right.
So here I thought it was all about marketing but it's more like Ecstasy.........demand

You also can't believe everything you read in forums- especially negative stuff.  Heatwaves negatives are more than a little exaggerated.  You can't be that sorry and still produce that many winners.  And that comes from someone that has never used him much.

I can't disagree with what you say but demand really doesn't always make it right.

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What do you mean by MAKE IT RIGHT.

seen three heatwave females recently with bags smaller than the fat on my belly.

heatwave kinda reminds me of the thoroughbred industry that breeds for the big heart gene and bleeding and quarter horses and HERDA.

I just looked up and he has 3143 progeny listed on the Chi site. He is deffinatly not a bull to keep females from. We kept a couple Monopoly daughters this year and hope the half angus in him will make some good cows.

frostback said:

I can't disagree with what you say but demand really doesn't always make it right.

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What do you mean by MAKE IT RIGHT.
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Collateral damage so "Johny" can win a banner! Have you seen a TH calf struggling to get up on it's deformed hind legs? Yeah you have to destroy them.Have you had a cow in labour trying to deliver a deformed calf and ending up with a C section. How about the lucky commercial guy that gets TH calves because he buys the carrier sibling heifers the result of several thousand calves being born to produce that Winner! I realise this is a forum for show steer producers. It is fun and challenging and takes talent to produce those winners. The breeding, feeding, fitting, showing and perfect presentation. It is an awesome experience for kids and family.There's a thread on here about abusing a cow to win at agribition that killed her! Winning at any cost does not make it right. Can you imagine the folowing letter
Dear Peta
Did you know there is a group of of people that in order to win a banner ......

Having a show winner does not justify those dead calves. It's not right. There's demand for lots of things but it doesn't make it right to provide the service or product!

You make it sound like all club breeders have a pile of dead cows and calves behind the barn.

frostback said:

You make it sound like all club breeders have a pile of dead cows and calves behind the barn.

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I think most club breeders are responsible. I just don't think  some people think about all the consequences of using the carriers. So before I offend everyone I'll get off my soap box.

frostback said:

You make it sound like all club breeders have a pile of dead cows and calves behind the barn.

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I agree. We raise some club calves along with having the more "clubby" side of Shorthorns, and we'e never had a TH calf born on the place.  Don't breed a carrier to a carrier.  If a commercial guy buys a HW heifer for a cow, then that's his own fault, and why is he using a TH+ herd bull in the first place?  We have never used HW, but we used Monopoly this year, and if we get enough good heifers, we may keep one to try. Can't be worse than some of the p!ss poor Shorthorn cows out there.

Good to know when your surplus females go through the auction all your TH carriers are identified. Of course every bull sold has all his genetic defects reported. I can’t imagine how commercial producers would end up with defective calves! 

So the shorthorn breeders are on here calling out club calf producers out out over TH ? Talk about hypocritical!We didn't have TH until this one guy started promoting a bull with a shorthorn mother.And the rest is history.The shorthorn breeders just shot their carrier cows in the head and left them lay huh?

jaimiediamond said:

Good to know when your surplus females go through the auction all your TH carriers are identified. Of course every bull sold has all his genetic defects reported. I can’t imagine how commercial producers would end up with defective calves! 

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I'm just saying. Lots of people like to put "commercial" as a tag on anyone who doesn't raise show cattle.  A real commercial cattleman who is up to date will probably buy from someone who is up to date on genetic testing (seeing as how we've been told many times that commercial cattlemen are much much smarter than us lowly purebred breeders).  And the only TH + bull we used this year was Monopoly, we eliminated all the TH/PHA carriers from our herd when the tests came out and we don't run any carrier bulls. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but I don't know of anyone who knowingly breeds carriers to carriers in search for the great one.

The big question that I have, is when are the at least some of the judges going to start using cattle that are going to be functional and have some acceptable growth? As long as they keep on using the "HW" type of cattle to win, PPL are going to keep propagating this type of genetics.
  I thought that a good testament to how crazy it has gotten was a post within the last 2 weeks from a person wanting to know why you would want cattle with genetics that were capable of gaining 4/5lbs/day? How far removed are we getting from the more important traits?

This debate isn't really winnable because it is a chicken and the egg debate.  Do you make cattle to fit the shows or shows to fit the cattle?  Each are their own separate beast, but they work in unison. 

1.  As long as Heat Wave type stuff is what is being used in the ring, do you really think most people are going to purposefully not use him, a son, or something like him?  For show steers, winning=success.  Would you be in the industry if you didn't at least aspire to be successful?

2.  Who are people to judge other peoples goals and objectives?  Where ever you are in the industry, and what you choose to do, is completely up to you.  If your objective is to maximize profit because you want this show game to be your full time job, doesn't it make sense to use the bull that will make you the most money?  Winning Shows=Making more money on your future calves, no doubt about it.  If you're a commercial guy does it make sense to keep a Heatwave female and flush her repeatedly because she does not milk the best?  Absolutely not.  Does it make sense if you want to make the best show steer possible, and want to utilize some of the qualities that Heatwave females possess?  I'd say so.

3.  The TH carrier and dead calf arguments are moot.  It's simple, don't breed a carrier to a carrier.  When you do, you're asking for something bad to happen.  If people purposefully breed a carrier to a carrier, they get what is coming for them.  We purposefully run a lot of carriers and use carrier bulls every year.  Our donors are almost exclusively carriers.  We have not gotten a TH calf since the issue became common knowledge.  AI with a smart choice and clean up with a clean bull--not a tough concept.

I don't understand the need for division in this industry.  Why do people of different arenas really need to look down on others?  I've seen some deplorable things done by all of them, and great things done by all of them. 

mooch said:

So the shorthorn breeders are on here calling out club calf producers out out over TH ? Talk about hypocritical!We didn't have TH until this one guy started promoting a bull with a shorthorn mother.And the rest is history.The shorthorn breeders just shot their carrier cows in the head and left them lay huh?

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I don't hear any club calf guys complaining... isn't that where all the fuzzy hair comes from, the TH carriers?

R1Livestock said:

This debate isn't really winnable because it is a chicken and the egg debate.  Do you make cattle to fit the shows or shows to fit the cattle?  Each are their own separate beast, but they work in unison. 

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This is EXACTLY the problem - there shouldn't be a bl00dy division between the two to start with.
The cattle winning in the show ring, should be the cattle that are also able to perform out in a paddock without having to be fed stupid rations to pump them up, or having to have feet trimmed so they can walk from A to B, or having to physically have a calf put on the teat because of a bad udder or providing supplementary milk or creep feed because the mother's got none.
Really, is it that d@mn difficult to breed FUNCTIONAL cattle?!?

two words...niche market!