Masculinity in Shorthorns

Here are 3 pics of Uluru Buster 6T. I may be prejudice but I think he shows masculinity from early on.

trevorgreycattleco said:

The Zulu bull still sticks out for me. I'd like to see him used heavily throughout the breed. Heavily. That bull on busters and bonanzas would be real good. On the A@T type stuff. Kapers. Lovings. I'd use that dude hard

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Of course he sticks out to you, Brock!  Few people have it- and cash can't buy it--that's why it's called- - the gift!

Unless there is some glaring flaw that's not evident in the pic, he is the most well put together Shorthorn bull I've ever seen.  The mass, masculinity, balance - all in a moderate framed power house package- It doesn't get much better than that.  He is exactly what those flatter made cattle need.

-XBAR- said:

trevorgreycattleco said:

The Zulu bull still sticks out for me. I'd like to see him used heavily throughout the breed. Heavily. That bull on busters and bonanzas would be real good. On the A@T type stuff. Kapers. Lovings. I'd use that dude hard

Click to expand...

Of course he sticks out to you, Brock!  Few people have it- and cash can't buy it--that's why it's called- - the gift!

Unless there is some glaring flaw that's not evident in the pic, he is the most well put together Shorthorn bull I've ever seen.  The mass, masculinity, balance - all in a moderate framed power house package- It doesn't get much better than that.  He is exactly what those flatter made cattle need.

Click to expand...

  Are you all talking about the Zulu bull with the dark nose?

Its just mud. He does not have a dark nose.

I have always thought the more masculine the bull, the more fertile and feminine his offspring will be. 
I have heard many judges comment about a bull being "too course" or "too rough", and all they are seeing is a masculine male bovine.  But "pretty" looks good in the show ring. Hair all primped out looks feminine regardless of what sex it is on (and that holds true to ANY mammal, including humans!)
The problem will continue as long as you have steer jocks judging shows and judging teams being coached by show jocks.

I just always have to chuckle when you visit a farm and they show you the "show string" and then they show you the "replacement females and herd bulls".  That speaks way louder than ANY purple banner.

frostback said:

Its just mud. He does not have a dark nose.

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I figured he must have had something on his nose.  I just couldn't resist posting what it looked like! ;D

I would like to have made him more masculine headed......he does show some cresty neckedness.

He's a linebred....roughly half Shorty-half Red Angus. Roughly at a year of age. I would like to improve masqulinity in all my bulls.

606 full brother to Government Mule. Half blood F1

I like Zulu quite well, too.

Here is a red angus bull at 9 Months of age, I feel he is masculine appearing and definitely large enough scrotal, he is now 18 months old but I do not have a recent picture to show you how he has grown.

Pretty sure everyone that sees this calf knows he's a bull (thumbsup)

Oky......I really like that calfs head. I'd say perfect.

Okotoks said:

Pretty sure everyone that sees this calf knows he's a bull (thumbsup)

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Can't fault the loooong dam either! <beer>

The Fraser's Legend Geneva cow is beautiful. 
There is a picture of her MGS, Frimley Major (if that is 38M) on the Braun Ranch Hereford site.  Also is a picture of the dam and grand dam, such nice cows. Especially the grand dam, Frasers Geneva Jennifer 3J.
She looks (to me) like the Cruickshank bred Golden Thistle but with more wedge.  Where did this Fraser's Geneva Jennifer 3J cow come from?

Can someone elaborate on this Geneva cow family and the bulls behind them, in terms of cow making bulls? 
Please have have patience that I do not know who Gordon Fraser is, but I would like to learn the story of his Shorthorns.
You  have to go to the Braun site to see the photos, in the Shorthorn album  in the Sale bulls, herdsires, cows page.

http://www.braunranch.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=149267659

Thanks

Here is an actual photo of Golden Thistle, from Charles Sumner Plumb's book, Types and Breeds of Farm Animals
http://books.google.com/books?id=d0A3AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=plumb+types+and+breeds&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gTtbUq_uL4vqkQeG9oHQCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=plumb%20types%20and%20breeds&f=false
I guess she doesn't look so much like the Geneva cow without the artist's refinements.  But it's interesting to see that the sire of Golden Thistle was Roan Gauntlet.  It seems fair to say he was a masculine bull making  feminine daughters.  I wonder if he was ever called "coarse"?
Cruickshank's laconic remark about Roan Gauntlet was " all good by him".
Also shown is the text from Fifty Years Among Shorthorns by Robert Bruce about Roan Gauntlet.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wdXbAAAAMAAJ&dq=roan%20gauntlet%2035284&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q=roan%20gauntlet%2035284&f=false
Sorry to digress, but Roan Gauntlet is where I ended up by chasing down Okotok's Geneva cow and wondering what sort of bull might have made that type of cow.

That bull isn't very masculine nor is the female very feminine.

I think many confuse the definitions of coarse and masculine.  Masculine to me refers to secondary male sex characteristics. In cattle- crest and depth of chest floor mainly.

Coarseness more times refers to leanness or extreme muscling relative to total body weight. More commonly what you'd see in the phenotype of a 'terminal' sire.  Coarse = Short, round muscles instead of long flat muscles that you'd see in a maternal makeup.

XBAR, you are a straight shooter and I appreciate that.
It's hard to move on from Roan Gaunlet, but I have to agree with you when I really look at the animals.

It would be a fine thing if Shorthorn breeders, through linebreeding AND selection, developed strains of Prepotent maternal trait bulls that some in the Angus breed have developed. Then we could cross the strains commercially.  Probably this is going on and I just don't know about it.

Best example I know of for breeding for maternal traits:
http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html
When I select the bulls I use, I visualize their five to ten generation pedigrees as a pen of cattle. In an ideal pen, the cows in the pen would be more similiar to the preferred type. Of course, the same cow appears in the pen several times among the more inbred stock. Since the bulls are simply the progenitors for the maternal characteristics, their indivdual performance is secondary. While I have flirted with a few of the more extreme bulls within the population, I have finally learned to avoid them altogether.  Larry Leonhardt

The body of the highly fertile cow is in beautiful proportion; she looks feminine or broody. Her brisket is not full and she has a dewlap running around her brisket. She has a tremendous stomach capacity, is big from the hip to the pin and from the hipbone to the patella or stifle joint.The largest part of a fertile cow`s body is the midrib region. Standing behind such a cow, her midrib or spring of rib is the widest part of her body, not the thurls or hipbones.  The influence of sex hormones on hair growth and hair shedding of cows is most important. Fertile cows are sleek and glossy.
Jan Bonsma, Judging Cattle For Functional Efficiency

I know these are Angus models, but the principles are the same. This is a good discussion and it would be great to see more Shorthorn examples.

librarian said:

The Fraser's Legend Geneva cow is beautiful. 
There is a picture of her MGS, Frimley Major (if that is 38M) on the Braun Ranch Hereford site.  Also is a picture of the dam and grand dam, such nice cows. Especially the grand dam, Frasers Geneva Jennifer 3J.
She looks (to me) like the Cruickshank bred Golden Thistle but with more wedge.  Where did this Fraser's Geneva Jennifer 3J cow come from?

Can someone elaborate on this Geneva cow family and the bulls behind them, in terms of cow making bulls? 
Please have have patience that I do not know who Gordon Fraser is, but I would like to learn the story of his Shorthorns.
You  have to go to the Braun site to see the photos, in the Shorthorn album  in the Sale bulls, herdsires, cows page.

http://www.braunranch.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=149267659

Thanks

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Gordon Fraser is a shorthorn breeder in Nova Scotia. His son Adam also has a herd New View Shorthorns near by. His daughter Carrie Braun has shorthorns at Braun Ranch, Simmie, Saskatchewan and both Gordon and Carrie use the prefix Fraser's. Gordon has a slaughter house where they process beef on order. He is an expert on carcass traits, cutability and marbling. Carrie's husband and in laws run about 250 head of registered herefords in south western Sakatchewan and it is a fine herd of functional easy doing ranch cattle that sells a lot of bulls to ranchers. Just to put the distance in perspective google maps shows it as a 2,657 mi, 44 hour drive if you use the Trans-Canada Hwy. I think both locations of Fraser's Shorthorns are great locations to test the breed. One with an emphasis on end product the other on cow calf efficiency and functionality. The Fraser's Geneva Legend 103U actually has three generations of Alberta bred sires and that calf is 4 although those bloodlines have all been used across the country. Frimley Major 38M was bought by Gordon to follow the Shamrock Gallant 11G and Double Star ACD Cody 7K bulls. 38M was a son of Eionmor Chief 16H bull used at Diamond/Frimley before returning to Eionmor/ Downsview. 103U's sire is Northern Legend 3N used at Diamond Shorthorns in Canada and Belmore Shorthorns in Australia. The sire of the bull calf is Alta Cedar Ultimate 130K one of the herd sires at Muridale Shorthorns, Saskatchewan. Here is a heifer Gordon showed this summer by Frimley Union Rising 13U, Fraser's Ruby Zaida 4Z which I beleive he has sold to Alberta(about a 50 hour drive!)

librarian said:

XBAR, you are a straight shooter and I appreciate that.
It's hard to move on from Roan Gaunlet, but I have to agree with you when I really look at the animals.

It would be a fine thing if Shorthorn breeders, through linebreeding AND selection, developed strains of Prepotent maternal trait bulls that some in the Angus breed have developed. Then we could cross the strains commercially.  Probably this is going on and I just don't know about it.

Best example I know of for breeding for maternal traits:
http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html
When I select the bulls I use, I visualize their five to ten generation pedigrees as a pen of cattle. In an ideal pen, the cows in the pen would be more similiar to the preferred type. Of course, the same cow appears in the pen several times among the more inbred stock. Since the bulls are simply the progenitors for the maternal characteristics, their indivdual performance is secondary. While I have flirted with a few of the more extreme bulls within the population, I have finally learned to avoid them altogether.  Larry Leonhardt

The body of the highly fertile cow is in beautiful proportion; she looks feminine or broody. Her brisket is not full and she has a dewlap running around her brisket. She has a tremendous stomach capacity, is big from the hip to the pin and from the hipbone to the patella or stifle joint.The largest part of a fertile cow`s body is the midrib region. Standing behind such a cow, her midrib or spring of rib is the widest part of her body, not the thurls or hipbones.  The influence of sex hormones on hair growth and hair shedding of cows is most important. Fertile cows are sleek and glossy.
Jan Bonsma, Judging Cattle For Functional Efficiency

I know these are Angus models, but the principles are the same. This is a good discussion and it would be great to see more Shorthorn examples.

Click to expand...

This is not going on in shorthorns any place except Kapers. Maybe I'm wrong. The Canadian folks do a bit of line breeding. But nothing like what Mr Leonhart has done. IMO his ranch is the way of the future. Where every breeder develops his or her own strains. Bred to hit certain target areas. Breeders could go to another breeder and get a totally unrelated animal of the same breed that is also line bred. I think the tru line theory is something every seed stock breeder should study. I sure wish I had found him a decade ago. Also I find it very interesting many folks have gone along with Larry and stopped registering their cows. Literally turning down huge money by doing so. The goal is prepotent, profitable cattle that last on minimum inputs.

So glad to see another breeder find Shoshone. Keeners Corner is a great learning tool for me.