Moderate BW bulls???

About 10 days ago I received a phone call from a potential bull buyer, and he asked me why I did not have any bulls in our sale that were over 100 lbs at birth. I was not 100% sure why he was asking this question, so I answered him by saying that we believed in keeping our BWs moderate and we believed in selling bulls with unassisted births. He went on to tell me that he was looking for bulls with more BW than this, but he preferred to keep his BWs under 125 lbs because he runs a lot of cows and he does not like assisting cows any more than the next guy. I asked him how many cows he was running, and he replied that he would calve out 300 cows. When I heard this I asked him if he had many assisted births using bulls with BWs that large. He told me that he assisted 21 cows calve in 2014. He also said that assisting 7% of his calves to be born was about the best money he had made that year as his steer calves averaged close to 800 lbs at the sale barn at weaning. His heifers averaged about 40 lbs less.  After we had visited for a while on the phone and I told him that I could not give him the name of anyone who had Shorthorn bulls with 120- 125 lb BWs, he said he might just come to our sale anyways to see the bulls in person. I thought that this guy was a very rare cattle producer. I had one other bull buyer who always wanted the biggest BW I had, however, he passed away about 2 years ago. I thought he had probably taken his BW preference to the grave with him.

Well, last night it happened again. The phone rang and the guy introduced himself and he told me he was interested in buying a bull. He then asked me if I could recommend some bulls to him and he said he wanted the ones with the biggest BWs. By the way, this guy lived about 600 miles from the other producer. He also asked me why our BWs were so moderate? I laughed because not many people refer to our Timeline bulls as being "moderate" despite every one of his calves born here being born unassisted.  This guy also wanted a bull with a 125 lb BW and he said if the bull was exceptional for growth, he would consider a bull with a BW of 130-135 lbs. I asked him what on earth kind of cows he had and he said he had 30 fullblood Maine cows and 150 Maine/Angus cross cows. He said he did not assist very many calves at birth but he thought the odd assist was well worth it for the additional weight the calves had at weaning. He also told me that he had averaged almost $1900 for his calves at weaning, and had only kept 11 later born calves that he was selling next week. After we talked about some of our highest BW bulls in the sale, he asked me if I would save a big BW bull out of this year's calf crop an he would buy it as well.
I was surprised to have one phone call like this, let alone two of them. I guess it goes to prove that there are people out there who don't follow the crowd and that there is a market ( no matter how small) for most anything.  Personally, I don't agree with these guys, as I think we need to produce calves that are born easily and are moderate in all ways. I think if we can do this we eliminate problems before they happen and still have good performance as well.

BTW, our Sun Country Shorthorn Sale is March 10th and will be broadcast live at www.cattleinmotion.com. We also have additional information on our own website and we hope to have the ultrasound data online by tomorrow or Wednesday.

Like your post and agree with you completely. It made me lol. I guess I am on of those guys who likes a big spread on birth weight and weaning weight with the birth weight low. I do know I guy down the road from me that has produced a couple of downright cow killers. Maybe he should start selling Bulls. I will have to check out your sale.

I've had a similar thing happen in the last couple of years.  Guys keep asking for bulls with more and more birth weight and more frame.  I had a guy buy a bull, have it delivered to him, and then he phoned back madder than a badger that the bull's BW EPD was 0.2 BELOW breed average.

I still say that we can produce the same WW with a more moderate BW if we are breeding the right kind.  Adding BW to get WW is a way to "cheat" without actually analyzing the cattle and selecting a superior bull.  All you are in fact adding is frame and bone, neither of those taste very good.  Doing that is just screwing the next guy down the supply chain.

Important to keep in mind the relationship between calf size and mature cow size.  For his tonner fullblood maine cows, I'm sure a 140lb (7%) isn't really that big.  For the average commercial cow, a 140lb calf would put them in the ditch.  The best thing SH breeders can do when asked about where to find those type of birth weights would be to refer them to a different breed.  Accentuate the maternal strength of the Shorthorn breed and encourage those looking for monsters to seek the terminal continental breeds. 

Heres an ET from last week-110 pounds(WIEGHED not a guess)-they found him wobbling along beside his dam-Second pic 2 hours old-1st pic the next morning-His legs are clearing up and  will be fine. Hes just a beast,but not sure hed be usefull down here-Hes Sired by Hardings Capital Gains -and out of a purebred Shorthorn cow-convetionally bred-never had a big one till him. Didnt think a Cunia would throw one like that-but it is wut it is O0

I'm a commercial guy that came to the Shorthorn breed for maternal traits. I will say that it is all in the cow herd. Somewhere in the midst of all of the quest for low birth weights I think that some people are figuring out that there is a direct link between the 50 pound birth weight and the 350 pound weaning weight. We had the frame race with everybody getting continentals, and people saw how that could end up with a little poor planning, so then the last ten years have been selecting for low birth weight, now maybe people will come around. I personally don't want to see anything above 100. I have some cattle that probably wouldn't be good to calve the first time with anything over 80 but I'm trying to phase them out in favor of some more maternal traits and easy calving cows. I will say that I have come to admire a breed that has heifers that routinely pop out big calves like the shorthorns seem capable of doing.

I would agree-and VERY few of mine run over 80-85 pounds-The calf shown is out of a big Maine bull and in alot of intances would have been listed at"88-92" pounds. As a rule the cattle im left with would be easy calving but there again, my cattle are also  smaller than the big showy ones that pop out "80" (over 100) pound calves . The big baldie that had the RWM calf had no problem at all, which given shes part simm etc shows the ability of some of the others to handle a big calf too. If he grows like I think he will-there will be some pounds there for sure-Im not saying that its all fine and dandy-but he shows alot of grow.O0

Remember birth weights in Western Canada can be around 15 Lbs higher than in the central and southern U.S.  In my experience most guys in Western Canada with performance based commercial want to have their heifers calve with with weights in a a 90 to 100 LB spread.  Cows having calves up to 110 LBs is acceptable  This is due to the average range cow  being around 1500 LBs or more  in the Parkland regions. Performance is selling better than calving ease right now.
They do not want bulls north of 120 LBs unless they are Hutterite colonies.  Hutterites have plenty of labor and don't mind calving big calves to get big performance.  They buy plenty of bulls with birth weights up to 130 LBs with out a second thought.

Being the first to acknowledge that I don't know anything, I am wondering about breeding long hipped cows with plenty of pelvic capacity. Then having dinky calves is a waste.
Can that pelvic character be recovered from "maternal" bulls, or is it passed down through the cows and if you lose it, it's hard to recover?

Mark H said:

Remember birth weights in Western Canada can be around 15 Lbs higher than in the central and southern U.S.  In my experience most guys in Western Canada with performance based commercial want to have their heifers calve with with weights in a a 90 to 100 LB spread.  Cows having calves up to 110 LBs is acceptable  This is due to the average range cow  being around 1500 LBs or more  in the Parkland regions. Performance is selling better than calving ease right now.
They do not want bulls north of 120 LBs unless they are Hutterite colonies.  Hutterites have plenty of labor and don't mind calving big calves to get big performance.  They buy plenty of bulls with birth weights up to 130 LBs with out a second thought.

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Mark, you are correct about birth weights. Western Canadian BWs can be significantly bigger than BWs in the more moderate Midwest and Southern US. I have mentioned this before, but when I was in college ( which was back before paper was invented) we did a study where we took equal numbers of embryos from the same flushes and implanted them in Saskatchewan and in Texas. The first year we averaged 10 lbs more on BWs in Saskatchewan than in Texas. The second year was a more brutal winter here in Canada, and the difference moved to 15 lbs bigger calves here in Saskatchewan. There was no significant difference in calving issues so we could not report anything on this. There are numerous other studies on this that show the same trend.
If we had a few more days like the last couple, I think we would be seeing a big increase in BWs here. I had a guy drive over 200 miles to look at bulls here yesterday. It was a cold nasty windy day and the windchill was below -40C all day. When he left, I don't think I have ever been as cold. I shook for hours and it took me most of the night to finally warm up. Today is not much better and now that I have finally got warm, I have to go out into this crap. Hopefully the weather people are right. It is supposed to warm up tomorrow and the next week's forecast looks like we will see melting temps. It better or I may watch our bull sale from Punta Cuna!

As both a Canadian and a Maine producer I understand bw can be higher in my herd that being said I believe in raising hefiers capable of having 90# calves and cows that can calve out those 100+#. However I won't keep a bull calf exceeding 110 as they are hard to market. Resulting I try not to purchase bulls exceeding 110# either unless I have a specific need they will address. I grew up on a commercial operations with char x Maine cows. Ive seen the down side to those big calves and have seen the benefits of better milking Maine cross cows with the lower bw calves creating a favorable spread. A very unique post I didn't think I would see in this day and age. But it takes all kinds. Personally I think good milking cows and reasonable 90-100# bw can give you more big calves with less effort than monster calves from mediocre cows jmo.

Folks are going to have a rude awakening if they bank on drastically reducing birth weights just by bringing a bull South.  I'm not saying there won't be a few pounds difference--- but people need to anticipate their calves having similar birth weights to the bulls they're using- regardless where they're from.

I had 3 calves born yesterday:  A 71 lb bull calf out of a 76lb bw 4508 son (President 1A) from Illinois, a 73lb bull calf out of (JSF Broker) a 77lb bw bull from North Dakota,  and a 95lb bull calf out of (Vanguard) a 95 lb bull from SK. 

I have only used Shorthorn bulls for the last 4 years but in my limited experience, my calves birth weights have followed their sires' pretty closely.

You're right XBAR.  the most difference would be 10lbs probably.  Management has as much or more of an effect. 

The bigger trait is calving ease.  A big boned, block headed calf is a hard calver, no matter the weight or where you live. The longer made calves may have some weight but will calve easier in my experience.

I forgot to mention I know some steer jockeys that will use big birth weight bulls feeling they give an advantage in the show ring.  They are only calving maybe 30 head at most.
You are correct management or the ability to handle big birth weights is a must when using big birth weight bulls.  That said even the most savvy commercial producers will not likely use a bull over 110 LBS no matter what the situation since calving say 300 cows bred to harder calving cows is too manpower intensive during and after calving.

I routinely band any bull who hits 110 or over. I usually don't have to band many, but last year I banded one of the best calves I have had in a few years. He weighed 115 lbs and was unassisted at birth, and I haven't had many that had his thickness and muscle. I have been doing this for over a decade and have not had one complain from bull buyers since I started doing this.

There are so many other factors involved in birth weights and more importantly calving ease. I am a huge believer in bred females getting exercise during the winter months. I think it makes for many more unassisted births regardless of BW ( within limits of course).

I'm convinced.............that this thread............will convince commercial producers in my area to start buying bulls with 110# bwt's instead of the prefered 85 pounders.

aj said:

I'm convinced.............that this thread............will convince commercial producers in my area to start buying bulls with 110# bwt's instead of the prefered 85 pounders.

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I disagree. The take home message seems to be don't buy a 110# bw bull unless your cows can handle 110# calves.
So, 85 would be calving ease from heifers with 85# bw and 110 the extreme bw bull a producer, with 1400-1600 lb cows, would consider if their goal was 800+ weaning weights.
If anything, commercial producers might be convinced to stop chasing 1200 lb cows and stop saving 65 # bw heifers.
As an aside, my commercial neighbors are worried because they can't find a registered Angus bull that won't take them backwards for under $8000. ( they are choosy)
Good time to promote $6500 shorthorns.

In regards to bull prices, I was in a local feed store a few days ago, and while I was waiting at the till,  I overheard a rancher talking to the store manager. The store manager asked him if he needed to buy any bulls this year? This rancher is well into his 70s and I was surprised to hear him say that he needed at least two bulls this year. He said he had attended a few early bull sales already and he expected he was going to have to pay between $6500 - $9000 for bulls he liked. The store manager said that these prices seemed to be very high and the rancher replied that cattle prices overall were high. He said that he had always based his bull buying budget on the value of 5 calves at weaning and he averaged $1700 on his calves when he sold in the fall. He said that if he really liked a bull, he always felt he could safely spend the equivalent value of 6 calves in the fall.
Using this ranchers formula, 5 of his calves brought $8500 and 6 calves brought $10,200. I listened as he told the store manager, that not only had he used this formula for buying a bull for the past 60 years, but his father had before him, and he said it had proven to him that being willing to buy quality always had paid them premium returns. The rancher said that he had learned a long time ago, that you should never cheat yourself out of using the best quality bulls and you have to pay for quality.
I have thought about this ever since hearing it and I think I heard a very intelligent ranch manager explaining how he was successful. From seeing early spring sales, I think there are more people who are agreeing with this man.
These prices seem to be high, but I think many of us are just not used to the present market conditions. When you stop for a moment and think of the prices of every input we have to buy, our prices received for our cattle have not kept pace. Stop and think about how many calves it took to purchase a new baler or truck in the mid 80s and compare it to how many it would take even today. We are no where's close to being over paid for our cattle. I think many are starting to realize this.
In regards to BWs of bulls, I think most cattle producers will accept moderate BWs, and here in this area, I think that moderate would be considered to be in the 90-100 lb range. I don't know many who routinely look for bulls with bigger BWs than this, but there are definitely some who do. I guess that is one of the good things about this business... that is one size doesn't fit all. I may not agree with what a person selects for his bull power, but that is his decision. I certainly hope that this kind of freedom to make our own decisions will remain for years to come. Our freedoms are being eroded every day, but I hope we can continue to be masters of our own destiny.

I've had a similar situation as you describe Justintime, maybe not to that extreme, but I have had plenty of guys giving me a call in regards to adding more frame to their cow  herd. I sold a bull mid January to a commercial fella running shorty and shorty cross cows and wanting to breed them back shorty again. On the phone he asked if I had bulls that would add some size to his cows, I said I did have a bull that might do the trick, but he had a larger BW of 102lbs, but unassisted. He was absolutely unfizzed, came out the following day and bought the bull and was absolutely tickled pink. I think with how the cattle market is, commercial producers are going to look at adding more frame and more pounds to their cow herd. I'm also a little puzzled at the wanting 125lb BW's, but hey I suppose if you have cows that that sort of bull would work on, then power to you.

In regards to sale averages, a local Simmental breeder held his sale today. 92 yearling bulls and 28 open heifers averaged $10,450. I heard that probably 90-95 % went to commercial producers. I never thought I would ever see this......