multi breed genectic evaluation?

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aj

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I read in the Midwest Cattleman mag August 8,2013. page 29. The Red Angus,Simmental, and now Gelvieh do a multi breed evaluation. Why in the world doesn't the Shorthorn breed join this deal? Were ne not invited......not wanted.....WHAT? How could we as a breed isolate ourselves.....make ourselves look like a joke.....make ourselves in to the zoo breed breed of the Century?
 

frostback

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http://www.shorthorn.org/contactus/main_jcontactus.html

OFFICE HELD MEMBER E-MAIL PHONE YEARS
President Les Mathers [email protected] (309)678-4230 2007-2013
Vice President Mike Bennett [email protected] (559) 534-2396 2008-2015
Executive Director Ricky Guidry [email protected] (337)540-2825 2007-2013
Director Billy Zack Taylor [email protected] (270)988-4123 2007-2013
Director Lynn Nelson [email protected] (507) 402-4772 2011-2014
Director Mark Gordon [email protected] (217) 737-7905 2011-2014
Director Marty Loving [email protected] (620) 786-2018 2011-2014
Director James Freed [email protected] (405) 370-1482 2012-2015
Director Ed Kruse [email protected] (719) 252-1084 2012-2015


Here are phone numbers and emails. Why don't you do something and call and ask the people that can answer that question. In stead of getting on here and implying that they are not doing anything. Learn and do something instead of making everything personal and an attack. 
 

aj

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Seems like this would have helped on the 50k chip deal...........mainstreamed the breed......Who did i personally attack?Midwest Cattleman magazine?
 

aj

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Frosty I am a month ahead of you. Are you against public discussion and feedback  from Shorthorn breeders? Do you want to silence  ideas that don't fit your narrative?
 

Okotoks

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Zoo breed? Build it and they will come! You seem to think you do the breed a service by tearing it down. Do you have no pride in your breed? If not why do you want to be a Shorthorn breeder? Shorthorns are one of the best kept secrets in the cattle industry. Look at the video Redbulls posted this morning, that's a breeding program, Ralph built it, he didn't wait for the Association, but he does use the association's EPD system. No breed is perfect and not everyone within a breed will follow a program that enhances a breed but if one focuses on the positives and builds on them rather than the negatives a lot can be accomplished. I'm proud of my breed!
 

aj

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Why doesn't the ASA join this alliance? Is it because it would require mandatory  reporting. I am scared to death the breed will be left with no tools to compete.
 

cbcr

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The multi-breed genetic evaluation would be good for the industry.  But with these associations joining together, if you do an animal search in the Simmental database you will find the animals from the other registries in there.  Is it right or fair to simmental breeders?

Another thing, the breeds that have joined, all have cross use of Red Angus and Black Angus in their breeds.  The Shorthorn does use the Red Angus for the Durham Reds, but going the other direction how many Shorthorns are used on Simmental, Gelbvieh, etc?

The Shorthorn is a breed that is overlooked and underused.  Why? Color?

As I said, a multibreed evaluation is the right way to go.  There is nothing to keep other breeds from joining together to form a partnership for performing multi-breed evaluations.
 

knabe

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Besides bw, what do sh's need to improve.

You never responded to my list of suggestions, only complaints.

Typical.
 

knabe

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The chips are useless across diverse populations.

Probably even the 750k one so it's a waste of $

Better to have access to cattle who have what you want.

There has to be someone with proven marbling kill sheets.

Have you tried a search in the db for top 100 bulls w acc over .75?
 

knabe

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It wasn't clear on how to use the epd page but is deerpark improver really 2nd in marbling?
 

Mill Iron A

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Multi breed evaluations are the future of the industry.  Not having them before simply comes down to a pissing match between breeds.  Progressive associations will join what has already started, sure maybe the genomics will be more applicable within breeds. To clarify the associations are not joining together, they are just sharing and comparing data amongst them to make the data more relevant and accurate.  I am not a shorthorn breeder nor do I use them on our commercial cows but I do think they have qualities to bring to the table and I would encourage them to join the current movement.
 

BTDT

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A few GUESSES:
Shorties have too big of birth weight and since gelv, red angus are known for the calving ease, probably wouldn't make the shorties look too good.
Shorties are not known for their growth. Maybe wouldn't look too good there either? (Look at Proud Jazz. He is a 11 at yearling?)
Red Angus and Gelv are not known as "show cattle".  Why would they want to include "show cattle shorties"?
Shorties did not want to join
Red angus (who started this) did not want them

Like Frostback said, call the people who can answer the question.  No need to speculate when you can get the real answer!

 

aj

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It seems like to me that the Shorthorn breed needs to have an epd figured almost exactly like the Angus breeds.......or an across the breed epd. There is no business that would put a product on the self where there is so much confusion on the labels. As I understand it a shorthorn with a 30 yearling epd is the same as an Angus with a 110 yearling epd. This has got to leveled up......in the way the epds' are "labeled". If it was the other way it would not bother me. But the Breed HAS to level it out in the way they calculate their epd. There are to many choices and options for bull buyers out there......than to run into this inconvience. This has got to leveled out SOMEHOW .....and I suspect the best way to do it would be to convert to a multi breed system. What would it take to get it on a ballot for the Denver annual meeting? Does "A" director have to get it on a ballot. Could the membes vote on it? Would a committe have to be appointed to study it and make a proposal?
 

Okotoks

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BTDT said:
A few GUESSES:
Shorties have too big of birth weight and since gelv, red angus are known for the calving ease, probably wouldn't make the shorties look too good.
Shorties are not known for their growth. Maybe wouldn't look too good there either? (Look at Proud Jazz. He is a 11 at yearling?)
Red Angus and Gelv are not known as "show cattle".  Why would they want to include "show cattle shorties"?
Shorties did not want to join
Red angus (who started this) did not want them

Like Frostback said, call the people who can answer the question.  No need to speculate when you can get the real answer!
Here is the link to the 2013 Marc across breed comparisons. In the original MARC study Shorthorns were the easiest calving now they have one of the highre BW's, they also have one of the highest growth WW and YW, reasonable marbling and REA and high milk. What bloodlines this is representative of I am not sure.

http://beefmagazine.com/breeding-systems/marc-releases-2013-across-breed-epd-tables
 

aj

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We have got to cange the epd and get it on a level.....easy to understand level. I don't know what it would take or cost.
 

knabe

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personally, i would rather have raw bw records accessible in the database.

i could then plot them, find the mean, median, standard deviation, cv, check for normal distribution.  personally, epd's mean very little to me other than a potential source of direction.  verifying animals after using one would be more important to me.
 

cbcr

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A multi-breed evaluation cannot be done with one breed.  There have to be some common denominators from somewhere and the Shorthorn has that with the Durham Reds because of the Red Angus.

We have proven before that the BIF adjustments are not very accurate, but we have no other method for trying to adjust or compare EPD traits.

Another difference is that there are several different evaluations performed.  Simmental, AGI, Colorado State, ABRI, just to name a few.  Also understand that the same bull in each of these evaluations will have different EPDs calculated because of the cows he was bred to, the performance and number of the offspring.

Also understand that the evaluation models that are used by all of these groups all do the evaluations pretty well alike.  The biggest hurdle is that it will be virtually impossible for all of the beef associations and registries to combine their data for a true multi-breed evaluation.  The dairy industry's evaluations are all performed by USDA, but even with them there is more than one base that is not the same for each dairy breed.

As for raw data for birth weight, while some may want to view it, we all would like to see what a calf weighed when he was born, but there are too many factors that even looking at a birth weight won't work.

Management styles are different between producers.  A calf could weigh 60 lbs in one herd and 90 lbs in another.  How was the mother cared for and her rate, kind and type of diet and what region of the US, time of year was it prior to her calving?

It is even understandable that producers that have more than one breed can't directly compare them to each other.  There is nothing preventing these producers from seeking a solution that would give them EPDs in such a way that animals regardless of breed or breed composition can be directly compared.

The EPD for birth weight is supposed to take all of these factors into consideration when it is calculated.
 
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