Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: beebe on July 14, 2019, 10:13:58 PM

Title: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 14, 2019, 10:13:58 PM
Please tell me what you know about the Myostatin gene.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Hopster1000 on July 15, 2019, 06:02:37 AM
There are 9 different types, 4 of which appear in Shorthorn. Some are disruptive, some non-disruptive. They all have a different affect. Some reduce milk, some increase calving difficulty, but crucially some of the myostatin variants don't have a negative affect.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/list-of-triple-clean-shorthorn-bulls/15/ (http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/list-of-triple-clean-shorthorn-bulls/15/)

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/double-muscling-t12948/ (http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/double-muscling-t12948/)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 15, 2019, 06:53:28 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 15, 2019, 10:42:34 AM
It's interesting to see how the different players have reacted to the issue.

http://www.canadianshorthorn.com/assets/myostatin_2017.pdf (http://www.canadianshorthorn.com/assets/myostatin_2017.pdf)

https://shorthornbeef.com.au/myostatin-e226x/ (https://shorthornbeef.com.au/myostatin-e226x/)

https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn (https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn)

There is also an article in one of the Shorthorn Country's, but I couldn't find and an easy link to include it.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Willow Springs on July 15, 2019, 05:48:08 PM
The e266x variant seems to be the most prominent in the Canadian population with some very popular and heavily used lines being carriers. And that is no surprise as it appears in the heterozygous state it gives the animals more muscle expression which is generally a positive in our industry.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 15, 2019, 06:15:28 PM
The e266x variant seems to be the most prominent in the Canadian population with some very popular and heavily used lines being carriers. And that is no surprise as it appears in the heterozygous state it gives the animals more muscle expression which is generally a positive in our industry.
It's true that the heterozygous carriers have more muscle but a breeder either commercial or purebred really needs to know what they have. The homozygous double carriers definitely have issues from calving through thriftiness and require much more attention and can with the higher incidence of dystocia increase vet costs, as well as calf or even cow losses. If one knows they have carrier cows it would in most cases be best to use bulls that are free of disruptive myostatin variants. For example a carrier cow that produces calves averaging in the low 90 lb range can present a calf that is a 130 to 140 lbs if it carries two myostatin variants.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 16, 2019, 02:25:49 PM
Okotoks, is the Myostatin gene something that you test for and try to avoid?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Willow Springs on July 16, 2019, 03:32:12 PM
Dan have you seen any double carriers of e266x? I have a three potentials (ET calves), but I think 2 of 3 are likely single carriers as they are normal looking, but just show more muscle and bone - also very large BW versus the third calf who looks like the other non carrier calves I have. I did see one this spring at another farm that was likely a double carrier of e266x and he was small, finer boned and heavier muscled.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Boreal on July 16, 2019, 11:56:23 PM
Iíll hopefully know more in a few years. Doing a bit of experimenting:

Running 4 bulls on 120 Shorthorn, Galloway and commercial cows. One Shorthorn  bull is an E226X carrier and one is clean. One Galloway bull is an nt821 carrier and one is clean. There are likely carriers of both E226X and nt821 in the cowherd. Going to DNA the calves of the purebred animals to confirm sire/carrier status then follow calves in the herd. Was going to elimate myo but figured nature or man, or both, have kept it around for a few hundred years so maybe it has some use beyond carcass traits.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 17, 2019, 12:39:36 AM
Okotoks, is the Myostatin gene something that you test for and try to avoid?
Yes we test all our herd bulls and any of the bulls we sell. Since we started testing we have been selling only bulls that are free of the variants. We have been doing this for several years now and last year we had only one carrier bull calf but that might have been a bit of luck. We have only had experience with the E226 variant found most commonly in Shorthorns and Maine Anjou and it is a disruptive variant. The E226 variant can cause some significant calving issues when a calf gets a copy of the variant myostatin from each parent. We want to continue to develop our commercial bull market so if the bulls we sell are free our customers do not have to worry. We have started testing some of our females but have not got them all done as of yet. If you have the right environment, facilities and time you may find that you can deal with the issues to get the extra yield but typically a homozygous carrier is less thrifty and may have difficulty covering the ground to graze. If your cows are free and you use a carrier bull you should get increased yield on the calves but you will need to manage what the heifers are bred to. Typically the expense of testing cows for genetic defects is not easily borne by a commercial producer or a purebred herd for that matter. Knowledge of what you have is power though so testing at very least ones herd bulls should be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 17, 2019, 01:02:34 AM
Dan have you seen any double carriers of e266x? I have a three potentials (ET calves), but I think 2 of 3 are likely single carriers as they are normal looking, but just show more muscle and bone - also very large BW versus the third calf who looks like the other non carrier calves I have. I did see one this spring at another farm that was likely a double carrier of e266x and he was small, finer boned and heavier muscled.
Unfortunately we have used some E226 carrier bulls. I think the extra muscling is obviously attractive to breeders just as TH was and I bit both times :-\. As with any recessive defect it takes a few years to show up up and we had the misfortune of using a couple of light birth weight carrier bulls on our yearling heifers some of which were carriers. When the calves were homozygous it was bad at calving. We started testing then and have tested all our herd sires and sale bulls since. Carriers with one variant only can have quite a range of muscle expression and we found several surprises both ways with results. If they had two copies it was more than obvious. I could give you a rather long list of known tested carriers and suspected carriers (not tested but sires of affected calves). I would suggest using the DNA tab on digital beef to check if a potential herd sire has been tested.Worthwhile if you do or do not want carrier animals) You will find some of the best bulls in the breed are carriers so in that case one might want to select and mate around it. Two bulls with a strong influence in our herd which we still value are Diamond Captain Mark 27C and Northern Legend 3N and will be tested to confirm that they are carriers but both have confirmed offspring. Although a somewhat different muscle pattern but still appealing are bulls like Diamond Belvedere 29B and Hatfield Bingo 2F. They are free but have good muscle expression, Belvedere's genomically enhanced EPD for REA is in the top 10% of the breed!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 18, 2019, 08:52:22 PM
Dan have you seen any double carriers of e266x? I have a three potentials (ET calves), but I think 2 of 3 are likely single carriers as they are normal looking, but just show more muscle and bone - also very large BW versus the third calf who looks like the other non carrier calves I have. I did see one this spring at another farm that was likely a double carrier of e266x and he was small, finer boned and heavier muscled.
Unfortunately we have used some E226 carrier bulls. I think the extra muscling is obviously attractive to breeders just as TH was and I bit both times :-\. As with any recessive defect it takes a few years to show up up and we had the misfortune of using a couple of light birth weight carrier bulls on our yearling heifers some of which were carriers. When the calves were homozygous it was bad at calving. We started testing then and have tested all our herd sires and sale bulls since. Carriers with one variant only can have quite a range of muscle expression and we found several surprises both ways with results. If they had two copies it was more than obvious. I could give you a rather long list of known tested carriers and suspected carriers (not tested but sires of affected calves). I would suggest using the DNA tab on digital beef to check if a potential herd sire has been tested.Worthwhile if you do or do not want carrier animals) You will find some of the best bulls in the breed are carriers so in that case one might want to select and mate around it. Two bulls with a strong influence in our herd which we still value are Diamond Captain Mark 27C and Northern Legend 3N and will be tested to confirm that they are carriers but both have confirmed offspring. Although a somewhat different muscle pattern but still appealing are bulls like Diamond Belvedere 29B and Hatfield Bingo 2F. They are free but have good muscle expression, Belvedere's genomically enhanced EPD for REA is in the top 10% of the breed!
Do you have a recommendation as to where to test?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 18, 2019, 11:29:06 PM
Dan have you seen any double carriers of e266x? I have a three potentials (ET calves), but I think 2 of 3 are likely single carriers as they are normal looking, but just show more muscle and bone - also very large BW versus the third calf who looks like the other non carrier calves I have. I did see one this spring at another farm that was likely a double carrier of e266x and he was small, finer boned and heavier muscled.
Unfortunately we have used some E226 carrier bulls. I think the extra muscling is obviously attractive to breeders just as TH was and I bit both times :-\. As with any recessive defect it takes a few years to show up up and we had the misfortune of using a couple of light birth weight carrier bulls on our yearling heifers some of which were carriers. When the calves were homozygous it was bad at calving. We started testing then and have tested all our herd sires and sale bulls since. Carriers with one variant only can have quite a range of muscle expression and we found several surprises both ways with results. If they had two copies it was more than obvious. I could give you a rather long list of known tested carriers and suspected carriers (not tested but sires of affected calves). I would suggest using the DNA tab on digital beef to check if a potential herd sire has been tested.Worthwhile if you do or do not want carrier animals) You will find some of the best bulls in the breed are carriers so in that case one might want to select and mate around it. Two bulls with a strong influence in our herd which we still value are Diamond Captain Mark 27C and Northern Legend 3N and will be tested to confirm that they are carriers but both have confirmed offspring. Although a somewhat different muscle pattern but still appealing are bulls like Diamond Belvedere 29B and Hatfield Bingo 2F. They are free but have good muscle expression, Belvedere's genomically enhanced EPD for REA is in the top 10% of the breed!
Do you have a recommendation as to where to test?
Neogen does the Canadian Shorthorn Association's DNA testing. We usually do the mysostatin on our bulls now bundled with the 50K and get a savings on the myo test and the 50K gives us parentage testing and genomically enhanced EPD's. Since bulls in Canada have to have a DNA parentage test before you can register calves it's an added value to our customers as well.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 19, 2019, 07:56:20 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 19, 2019, 08:08:04 AM
The ASA offers the test if you add it as an additional defect test on the far right side of their form. I believe it was $27 the last time I ran one.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 19, 2019, 03:27:59 PM
Need to start compiling names of cattle that could possibly inherit the mutation-Wonder if X Bars bull that sired the extreme BWS may have carried the gene O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on July 19, 2019, 08:11:00 PM
HC Vanguard 22Z was possibly a carrier as he was a double bred captain mark 27c but the huge calves he threw werenít muscle bound or anything, they just came out looking a month or two old at times.  His sire, Major Leroy, has had 120+lb calves all over the globe and both his dam and his paternal granddam were 2000lb tanks.  I think these are just huge cattle that have huge blrthweights. 


 As far as the myo-  I think itís a sham just as ds is.  The prevalency of homozygosity, to the extent that itís level of expression is disabling, is unbelievably remote.  Just as with ds, herds heavily influenced with carriers have inbred extensively with little to no issues worthy of mention.  The culprit genetics arenít new.  Theyíre not 10 years old or even 20.   These same genetics have HEAVILY highlighted both the American (ds) and Canadian (myo) herdbooks literally forever.  Why now is this selective outrage justified?  More bullshit defensive marketing imo.

 To put it in perspective,  I bought two new bulls this year in The Whoís your daddy sale that are both e226 carriers. : a Goose son, Muridale Teal, and the most complete shorthorn bull Iíve ever seen, Saskvalley Editor 75E.  I honestly didnít look at the supplement sheet until after the sale.  Their myo status wasnít -and still isnít- a consideration for me.  I bid on a 3rd bullion that sale as well. A white Saskvalley bull, who I later noticed was also a carrier.  So clearly somethings there thatís impacting phenotype but just as I do with all traits, Iíll let my environment and management (or lack thereof) self govern whose progeny falls out and whose genetics continue to influence.  Iíll just keep stacking the very best bulls I can find: alamo,roan ranger, editor, etc and weíll just see where the cards fall.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 19, 2019, 08:18:59 PM
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 20, 2019, 03:15:17 PM
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
Myostatin is real and it needs management! It takes a carrier bull to follow a carrier bulls daughters to find that out. (Typically it just drifts along in a herd until you bring in that second bull. A neighbor of ours bought a small herd with some very good cows in it. The last year the young cows had been bred back to their half brother(their sire was a purchased bull and was a great bull with great all round EPD's, actual weights and eye appealing moderate offspring) Long story short three difficult vet assisted deliveries, one dead calf. He bought a myostatin free bull and this year the problem was solved. At our annual Alberta meeting this year a breeder stood up and said he had believed exactly what Xbar states above but after this calf crop using a carrier on carriers he said the myostatin test was cheap and the issue real!  It's all about getting the information and managing it. You can use carriers but in my experience using them back on carrier cows is an expensive mistake. It's not just a Shorthorn problem, it exists in several breeds.
The E226X was introduced to Shorthorns from Maine Anjou crosses, some legit , some not. In Canada almost all the carriers trace to a cow that produced two maternal brothers born in 1980 and 1981. The main impact from those two brothers comes from 3 grandsons of the one born in 1993,1996 and 2000 and 1 grandson of the other bull born in 1993. So its late 1990's/2000 that it really starting to be distributed through the breed by those very popular and widely used bulls or their descendants.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 20, 2019, 04:44:47 PM
Same comment Im sure they must have been and still are good bulls-So if there was documentation like TH PHA and DS it would be a start.If you have a carrier just dont breed it to one O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: GM on July 20, 2019, 04:56:53 PM
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
Myostatin is real and it needs management! It takes a carrier bull to follow a carrier bulls daughters to find that out. (Typically it just drifts along in a herd until you bring in that second bull. A neighbor of ours bought a small herd with some very good cows in it. The last year the young cows had been bred back to their half brother(their sire was a purchased bull and was a great bull with great all round EPD's, actual weights and eye appealing moderate offspring) Long story short three difficult vet assisted deliveries, one dead calf. He bought a myostatin free bull and this year the problem was solved. At our annual Alberta meeting this year a breeder stood up and said he had believed exactly what Xbar states above but after this calf crop using a carrier on carriers he said the myostatin test was cheap and the issue real!  It's all about getting the information and managing it. You can use carriers but in my experience using them back on carrier cows is an expensive mistake. It's not just a Shorthorn problem, it exists in several breeds.
The E226X was introduced to Shorthorns from Maine Anjou crosses, some legit , some not. In Canada almost all the carriers trace to a cow that produced two maternal brothers born in 1980 and 1981. The main impact from those two brothers comes from 3 grandsons of the one born in 1993,1996 and 2000 and 1 grandson of the other bull born in 1993. So its late 1990's/2000 that it really starting to be distributed through the breed by those very popular and widely used bulls or their descendants.
Who was the cow and two maternal brothers you referenced?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on July 20, 2019, 05:38:39 PM
ďStarted being distributed in the mid 90sĒ

So 25 years later it was decided there was a problem?

Both of the biggest herds in Western Canada have line bred extensively to these carriers.

Is it really being implied that these folks pulled a George Ahlschwede and just kept quiet about the genetic defect train wrecks occurring within their herds over the past two decades?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 20, 2019, 05:56:14 PM
ďStarted being distributed in the mid 90sĒ

So 25 years later it was decided there was a problem?

Both of the biggest herds in Western Canada have line bred extensively to these carriers.

Is it really being implied that these folks pulled a George Ahlschwede and just kept quiet about the genetic defect train wrecks occurring within their herds over the past two decades?
It takes awhile to spread throughout a herd and only half the offspring are carriers. If you use a non carrier relative back on the carriers you are going to get unaffected calves and only 25% will be carriers. What is 25 years 3 to 5 generations? If you started with a free herd there is no way you would see anything in the first generation and if you had a big bull battery with free sires you may not see it for 3 or 4. I'm not implying anything, does everything have to be a conspiracy these days. Genetic defects take time to spread and non lethal ones that are not always expressed the same take longer to identify. In any case there is a simple inexpensive test so breeders have that option if they choose to use it.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 20, 2019, 06:42:49 PM
The simple tests are important-along with having an idea which lines may be infected or have the propensity to become a carrier when exposed to a carrier-Very basic stuff.So somebody say which cattle they suspect or have had experience with-Dont be coy boys O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 20, 2019, 08:09:50 PM
One of the reasons that I brought this up is that I have an opportunity to raise Piedmontese calves for a guy at a nice premium.  I am wondering if I would be getting myself into something I might regret, particularly calving.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on July 20, 2019, 10:34:06 PM
Buster 14k born in 2000 =>24M in 2002 => Saskvalley Ramrod 2005. Idk about the latters status but when the last of the grandsons born in 2000 is in many cases 10+  generations in that 25 year span.   Dozens of pedigrees where carriers have been stacked literally 5 and six times in the past 3-4 generations. 

No one implied a conspiracy. But if the prevalence of myostatin starts to surface to any real extent outside western Canada, then clearly this becomes a transparency issue with these breeders who HAD TO HAVE HAD MANY homozygous carriers, just based on the sheer number of times these genetics have been compounded within their herds.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 20, 2019, 10:56:46 PM
Buster 14k born in 2000 =>24M in 2002 => Saskvalley Ramrod 2005. Idk about the latters status but when the last of the grandsons born in 2000 is in many cases 10+  generations in that 25 year span.   Dozens of pedigrees where carriers have been stacked literally 5 and six times in the past 3-4 generations. 

No one implied a conspiracy. But if the prevalence of myostatin starts to surface to any real extent outside western Canada, then clearly this becomes a transparency issue with these breeders who HAD TO HAVE HAD MANY homozygous carriers, just based on the sheer number of times these genetics have been compounded within their herds.
Ramrod never had a significant number of calves hit the ground until 2008, so the first offspring were not producing until 2009, 2010 and they sure were not half sibling matings. Couple the free offspring with the out cross bloodlines being used and it takes time to get to a significant number of carriers. Some double muscled calves are born fine especially out of mature cows so the issues take time to surface and a lot of people don't believe it's a problem or recognize the problem even when it happens. A significant number of breeders are testing their sale bulls in Canada, I guess it's up to the buyers to decide what they want. As of  Friday July 19, 2019 it's now mandatory to test bulls in Australia and donor cows for myostatin. The British Association is making testing mandatory as well. The article put out by the American Association seemed to down play the the importance. Some people claim it's a plus.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 21, 2019, 08:44:09 AM
I wonder about Muridale Raw Hide 6e's status. He looks like one hell of a bull by his picture.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 21, 2019, 08:49:15 AM
I wonder out loud about the popular AI crossbred bulls used in the club calf industry? Could the mutation be floating around out there.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 21, 2019, 09:44:25 AM
I wonder about Muridale Raw Hide 6e's status. He looks like one hell of a bull by his picture.

He was listed as clean on their sale sheet. I believe they've been testing their sale bulls for a few years now.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 21, 2019, 10:28:46 AM
I went back and read the article in the Shorthorn Country. It claimed they had only tested 11 head. I know how many I've tested, which means there can't be many breeders testing for it in the states or they're not using the ASA to do the testing.

I assume I have a couple carrier cows in my herd based on a calf each has thrown and one calf I know was carrying, so all future herd bulls will have to be tested clean here. It's not an option, and any breeder wanting to sell me a bull will need to show me some results or I'll move on. The defect won't get the chance to cost me any more money. I purchased these cows, which leads me back to that 11 head tested number being even more interesting. On the other side, I recently sold a bull and out of the blue mentioned he had tested clean and the breeder obviously knew what I was talking about.

You can track one of the sources of the gene back over 50 years. When you speak with the right circle of old breeders who knew the source, it doesn't seem to have been a secret even back then. If you mention having semen on a son the response is, "ya, don't line breed to him". Some of the bulls between then and now sired relatively very few calves, but obviously it managed to hang in there until today. It appears to me Shorthorn breeders went after muscling, and they found it.

The past really doesn't matter to me as we have a test to move forward with, but if you connect the dots and read between a line or two I can't help but wonder if the source I tracked to is the same source north of the border that was used under a different name.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Duncraggan on July 21, 2019, 12:06:58 PM
Do the AI companies test for all of this? I have brought in numerous sires to South Africa from Semex over the last 15-20 years! None are listed for TH or PHA but one is a probable DS and they all have no tests listed for Myostatin. I am getting nervous here!
Are they obliged to have the bulls tested?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on July 21, 2019, 01:20:06 PM
Is this all going to come down to validating MarkTís  G9 theory?  O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 21, 2019, 02:08:41 PM
I only have 3 straws on G-9-But a bunch of 2975-I dont know about Myostain-At least the BWS didnt get too crazy till the Mark 4s got mixed with Enticer-Along with growth patterns that sometines didnt make sense. However-Before TH was an issue or even known about- we used RFC Magnum-A CF Fortune out of  a picture Perfect going back to Mark 4. Lawrence had never seen nightmare trainwrecks like that. So I asked him what do the cows go back to?-Answer MARK 4. That leads me to believe with 20 plus years hindsight that  Mark 4 was TH  because the lethal  occurrences were so numerous. Id like to bust a straw of 2975-If I had the Mark 4 semen which I dont-Im wondering if 2975 would even have been Mark 4s sire in the first place-According to a number of people who would know-G-9 was thought to be a Cunia son or grandson.Which would be great with me. Im just not sure if other than maybe Hallmark how many direct sons or daughters of mark 4 or even G-9 were available in Canada O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: redcows on July 21, 2019, 02:44:03 PM
When there were 11 tested, 3 were mine and fortunately all clean.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: GM on July 21, 2019, 03:39:45 PM
Buster 14k was mentioned and so was Ramrod.  What is the suspected starting point in Canada?  Or at least in your heard?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: redcows on July 21, 2019, 04:03:20 PM
I have heard Buster's sire, Eionmor Ideal 69F was a carrier. If so, it's likely further back than that. He does have a common sire on both sides of the pedigree, but it could have come from any ancestor.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 22, 2019, 01:12:39 AM
What was g9's registration number....or 2975
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 22, 2019, 01:14:36 AM
Seems like when we go with an animal that is more extreme........or a tad bit different looking.......sometimes it's because of a mutation.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 22, 2019, 01:51:18 AM
What was g9's registration number....or 2975
MILL BROOK RANSOM G 9 3550480

https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3550480&member_id=

MILL BROOK RANSOM G NINE 2975  3641922

https://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=3641922&member_id=


Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: wiseguy on July 22, 2019, 11:56:21 AM
I have heard Buster's sire, Eionmor Ideal 69F was a carrier. If so, it's likely further back than that. He does have a common sire on both sides of the pedigree, but it could have come from any ancestor.

I have always been told that his maternal grand sire GAFA Mochican was the starting point. About 3-4 years ago I contacted the American Shorthorn Association about listing myostatin as a genetic defect. I still have the email, but basically the board stated that it WOULD NOT be listing it as a defect, but would provide testing for anyone that wanted it. I have had several tested over the past 3 years and I believe that you can tell by looking at the calf if they are carriers. They usually are more descript in their muscle shape, and are slightly finer boned.

Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: jaimiediamond on July 22, 2019, 03:03:51 PM
https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: oakview on July 22, 2019, 04:12:07 PM
We showed in Louisville the year G-9 was shown as a 2 year old.  We were told by the present owner that he was assured by the breeder that he was not a Maine cross.  The rumor that we heard at that time was that he was sired by Capone.  I have semen from Capone, Cunia, G-9, 2975 and Ransom 179.  I'll bet something could be figured out with present testing methods, as if it will make a difference today.  I seem to remember that in the old literature, Dollar II was mentioned as a possible carrier of double muscling.  I used him back when it first became legal and really liked the results.  He crossed really well on my Ultimate Type daughters.  There's the potential for so much outside breeding in the backgrounds of most every breed.  Finding a single culprit like Improver for TH could be an exercise in futility.  Ayatollah was widely used in Canada.  Maybe he's the bad guy for Myostatin.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: wiseguy on July 22, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

So your contention is that it goes back to Ideal 69F's dam? Has anyone ever tested Gafa Mochican? I have to admit Mochican sure looks like a carrier..... I was told he was extremely heavily muscled and really orange in color. I have no idea and I'm not on a witch hunt.   I will say that I asked Dr. Bert Moore about this years ago and he thought I was on the right track.

I'm with X-bar on this one. I think its not much of an issue. They jumped the gun on DS and have decided to play a wait and see game on myo. I would be suprised if 5% of the current breeders in the states even knew what it was.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 22, 2019, 04:51:26 PM
Mohican sure reminds me of Strathore Irish Magic-There is one common thread between these two and the bulls X Bar listed-The superflag blood-Hey Medium Rare do you think I might be on the right track-he did make them bigger and "variations there of" were used alot in that respect. O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: wiseguy on July 22, 2019, 05:28:02 PM
Mohican sure reminds me of Strathore Irish Magic-There is one common thread between these two and the bulls X Bar listed-The superflag blood-Hey Medium Rare do you think I might be on the right track-he did make them bigger and "variations there of" were used alot in that respect. O0

I have also had discussions about Rb eagle 148th and 255th. I have been told these bulls expressed a different Myostatin variant. I have never used any of these genetics, but the believed culprit was said to be Chuck O Luck Real Silver. Again none of this is confirmed.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 22, 2019, 05:30:04 PM
There are carriers that do not have Gafa Mochican in their published pedigree. I don't know if semen even exists on him to have it tested. The Lady cow happens to be in at least one of carriers that do not go back to Mochican.

You'd have to ask Okotoks about Super Flag. I have a really nice and heavy muscled bred heifer sired by Super Flag that I need to test, but it's because there's a known carrier on the bottom side of her pedigree. The Lady cow happens to appear in the pedigree behind this particular known carrier as well.

I assume there are multiple sources as several full blood maine bulls were used honestly as well as dishonestly. If the Maine breeders or their Association would reveal their knowledge it would be easier to sort out the pedigrees where they were used honestly. It'd still be a puzzle though as we're talking about bulls that were used in the late 60s and early 70s and they weren't always put on the registration papers.

Either way, if you guys would start testing parentage on some of these old rumored bulls with whatever is left over in the tip of a staw after using one we could all watch the ASA play musical chairs with our epds as single step goes nuts trying to sort it out.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on July 22, 2019, 05:38:09 PM
Mohican sure reminds me of Strathore Irish Magic-There is one common thread between these two and the bulls X Bar listed-The superflag blood-Hey Medium Rare do you think I might be on the right track-he did make them bigger and "variations there of" were used alot in that respect. O0

 (clapping)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 22, 2019, 08:01:44 PM
According to a number of people who would know-G-9 was thought to be a Cunia son or grandson.Which would be great with me.

Until you found out cunia is a monkey mouth and spastic pareisis carrier.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 22, 2019, 08:04:28 PM
Mohican sure reminds me of Strathore Irish Magic-There is one common thread between these two and the bulls X Bar listed-The superflag blood-Hey Medium Rare do you think I might be on the right track-he did make them bigger and "variations there of" were used alot in that respect. O0

 (clapping)
It's not Mandalong Super Flag he had 1352 offspring in the ASA and 673 in Canada, there are numerous cattle in the Canadian herd book that trace to him between 30 and 60 times, myostatin would have been everywhere if he was the carrier. Most Canadian carriers trace to the cow in the link above Winalot Command's Lady and it can't be proven but she is supposed to be a half Maine, that was not her pedigree because the cow was switched at some point. At the time Maines blood typed like Shorthorns so it would have been very difficult to prove. I don't think there is anyway to confirm it now but it all traces back to her through her two sons. The American versions are also probably pedigrees that are wrong as well. >:(
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: jaimiediamond on July 22, 2019, 08:21:03 PM
I have requested the myostatin test for Mandalong Super Flag... if heís a carrier I will have crow for dinner
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 22, 2019, 11:23:55 PM
The post to Medium Rare was somewhat tongue in cheek-You and Okotocks more or less have set forth  the  possible use of maines back in the 70s and maybe later  who were also big etc-I was given to understand by a pretty knowledgeable person that Etula (Quebec AI Service ?) may have been one that was used quite a bit under the guise of something like Flag breeding or others and he could have been a carrier. I  stated  years ago that I thought Real Silver was a maine-I was told that by some of the same people mentioned earlier one of which was Harold Hoskins. He was a dead ringer and looked alot like the spotted Eagle shown above-AND A BIG  BULL-way too thick to resemble the cattle he purportedly went back to. Awhile back there was a side profile of a FREAKY red bull on here by Muridale that  resembled the Mohican bull from way back-as does Hatfield Govenor   O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Boreal on July 23, 2019, 08:10:05 AM
Gotta love the witch hunts that go on here whose premise is often in stark contrast to what we know about genetics: E226X didnít have to come from Maines. Close bred herds are more likely to give arise to mutations - hence, more purebred animals are more likely to develop them. Could it have come from an outcross? Sure. Was it more likely to have been in Shorthorns all along? Absolutely. It probably arose in Durham cattle.

This reminds me of the speculation about Th and how it came from Galloway - which has now been proven to be another SP fantasy as theyíre different mutations. Havenít seen many retractions of the wild allegations on here, however - likely because the evidence doesnít fit the narrative that Shorthorns were somehow unadultered until all of this outside breeding was snuck in. Hogwash.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: oakview on July 23, 2019, 08:40:13 AM
For those of you who didn't get it, I was not serious about Ayatollah's relationship to the myostatin problem.  He may have contributed many things, extra muscling was not one of them.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: turning grass into beef on July 23, 2019, 10:00:24 AM
Interesting thread.  There has been a lot of discussion about where it came from.  That's fine.  But I keep thinking about the future.  Where do we go from here?  I get the impression that some people are deathly afraid of the myostatin gene (maybe I am wrong but that is what I think).  Here are my thoughts.
Who cares where it came from.  How are you going manage your herd in the future?  I am not afraid of it at all.  In fact, we have decided to use some carriers in our commercial herd as are some other commercial breeders.
We calve out around 350 shorthorn sired calves each year (purebred and commercial).  We have never had a single calving issue due to myostatin.  We get 1-2 calves per year that are double muscled and we have A LOT of cows in our herd have Saskvalley Ramrod 155R at least once in their pedigree.
Here is my math (notice that I think in terms of a commercial cattle rancher).  IF you get 1% of your calves that exhibit double muscling and that calf sells for $500.00 less than the rest of the other calves, then the other 99% need to make up that $500.00.  That is about $5.00 per calf, or 1 cent per pound on 500 pound calves.  If the other 99% of the calves exhibit more muscling by using a bull with more muscling, then I believe that 1 cent per pound premium is achievable.
On a side note, I don't believe that you can tell a carrier by just looking at them.  We tested all of our sale bulls last year and the most heavily muscled bulls were not all carriers.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 23, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Close bred herds don't cause mutations. Line breeding will expose a genetic mutation. Surely you understand that?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: oakview on July 23, 2019, 03:08:45 PM
Isn't it true that sometimes freaks of nature just happen?  40 years ago we had two calves born in the same year with no tail.  Nothing there.  If felt like the tail bone was bent back along the spine under the skin.  The calves did fine, just looked odd.  They were absolutely, totally unrelated unless you wanted to go back to the beginning of time. 
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 23, 2019, 04:42:04 PM
I think the article in the link below is very good. It mentions that myostatin was first observed 200 years ago "The Beef Shorthorn Cattle Society directors are also aware that there are examples of cattle within the Beef Shorthorn breed that appear to be exhibiting characteristics associated with a myostatin mutation. This is not a surprise given that the first documented case of double muscling was 200 years ago in Durham cattle."
I think myostatin is more prevalent across breeds in the UK as it produces a phenotype that is popular there.
I think it's more important to understand and manage it than where it actually originated. Testing ones herd bulls and knowing what animals they can be mated with is a good starting point. If you are using a good bull that is a carrier you would probably want to follow on his daughters with a free bull. Breeding programs are all about personal preference so there are a dozen views on every aspect!

 https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn (https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2018/11/13/double-muscling-myostatin-and-the-beef-shorthorn)

Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on July 23, 2019, 05:31:25 PM
Mutation, the historical cattle industry official excuse for adulteration.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on July 23, 2019, 05:34:50 PM
Last year, I inspected for register purposes some calves. Three one were discarded for double muscle.
Never got it until this date in Brazil.
As technical inspector for register in brazilian herd book, I cut off summarelly the double muscled, and incentive the breeders to NEVER AGAIN use similar genetics.
A dead calf or a genetic defected calf is money lost!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on July 23, 2019, 05:36:32 PM
Is this all going to come down to validating MarkTís  G9 theory?  O0

What theory......same one as Enticer,
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 23, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
The sire test is another interesting complication.

With its ability to affect bw, ww, yw, yield, marbling, and who knows what else it's worth scrolling the pedigrees entered. Those bulls are basically the foundation of the new carcass epds moving forward as well as having an affect on the breed's growth epds. Breeders are spending a significant amount of money to nominate bulls, the ASA is spending significant amounts of money advertising the results, and others are making breeding decisions based on bull comparisons. They're pulling 50k samples on all the calves, so single step is applying the comparisons made in the test across a wide swath of the the breed's genetic base. The influence of the results of those comparisons will linger throughout the epd flows for years to come. Seems significant, especially considering we are left in the dark as to which bulls are carriers.

In order for the data to be sorted accurately, you would expect the need for contemporary groups to be split on a carrier non-carrier basis. I'm sure this would limit the data statistically as they struggle to get enough calves as it is, but it's worth considering the implications.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 23, 2019, 05:43:26 PM
The only people who even hint that Shorthorns are unadulterated are the native breeders. However when you consider that: forms of double muscling were around in the 19th century, and that a number of the breeds exhibiting " this and that"-(Particularly Maines) are directly descended from Shorthorns ; then its not as much fun as a witch hunt-its an acknowledgement by most of the persons responding to this thread that you need to have an idea of "what you got"-And breed accordingly.- Cows 101 O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on July 23, 2019, 06:03:45 PM
The only people who even hint that Shorthorns are unadulterated are the native breeders. However when you consider that: forms of double muscling were around in the 19th century, and that a number of the breeds exhibiting " this and that"-(Particularly Maines) are directly descended from Shorthorns ; then its not as much fun as a witch hunt-its an acknowledgement by most of the persons responding to this thread that you need to have an idea of "what you got"-And breed accordingly.- Cows 101 O0

Mark...agree and don't agreed!
Yes, the list of double muscling breeds have lots of ones with Shorthorn influence as Belgian Blue, Maines, Normando (discovered it soon). But, all these  ones also have on the other side of your genetics native local breeds from northwest Europe. So the DM gene can to be originated from mother breeds side. Just a speculation.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 23, 2019, 06:51:38 PM
Wasn't Enticer the non * bull that pure pure pure. What is his status......
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 24, 2019, 05:54:09 PM
All over the place-He was so diverse he may have been sold 10 or 15 times O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: GM on July 24, 2019, 07:51:24 PM
All over the place-He was so diverse he may have been sold 10 or 15 times O0
Curious what this means
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: coyote on July 24, 2019, 11:47:35 PM
Quote
The post to Medium Rare was somewhat tongue in cheek-You and Okotocks more or less have set forth  the  possible use of maines back in the 70s and maybe later  who were also big etc-I was given to understand by a pretty knowledgeable person that Etula (Quebec AI Service ?) may have been one that was used quite a bit under the guise of something like Flag breeding or others and he could have been a carrier. I  stated  years ago that I thought Real Silver was a maine-I was told that by some of the same people mentioned earlier one of which was Harold Hoskins. He was a dead ringer and looked alot like the spotted Eagle shown above-AND A BIG  BULL-way too thick to resemble the cattle he purportedly went back to. Awhile back there was a side profile of a FREAKY red bull on here by Muridale that  resembled the Mohican bull from way back-as does Hatfield Govenor   O0
Muridale Buster 14K is a Myo Carrier.
Muridale Matt 37Y was tested Myostatin free
Hatfield Governor ended up being a myo carrier.
Over the years we have only had 2 double muscle calves. I would of thought we would of had more because we have used at least 4 bulls that we know of that had been Myo carriers and we have been line breeding too. The one calf that we had was a big calf at birth but the cow was able to push it out on her own. One thing we noticed was when we were moving the cattle to the next pasture a few miles away, the double muscled calves had a hard time keeping up with the rest and were sucking air. When we sold these calves with the rest of our commercial calves they were the highest selling calves amongst the group.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: justintime on July 25, 2019, 08:40:40 AM
I have lots to learn yet about myostatin, but it does appear that it is not something new in the Shorthorn breed. Some breeders in the UK have told me, that double muscling in Shorthorns can be traced back to the very early days of the breed. When I was in Scotland a few years ago, old time breeders told me that double muscled calves appeared occasionally back then.  They say that some of the breeds that evolved from Shorthorn blood, such as the Belgian Blue and Maines, got the double muscling traits from the myostatin strains passed on by their Shorthorn fore fathers. I have also read that myostatin is found in many breeds. It appears that Shorthorns may have more cases of it than some others. So far, I have only tested about 20 animals for myostatin and the results have been all over the map. I started testing my donors and my present herd sires and I am hoping to get some more done soon. I have found it almost impossible to predict which animals will be carriers and which will not. I have had myostatin carriers from genetics from all parts of the world- some straight Canadian, some US,and some Aussie bloodlines. I have had completely clean animals from all these different bloodlines as well.
The British Shorthorn society has recently passed a rule that ET calves can only be registered if they are from parents that carry one or less myostatin strains. ET calves from a parent with more than one myostatin strain can be registered only once they are tested and found to only have one or no strains. I have talked with one breeder from the UK and he says that they are walking very carefully in regards to myostatin, as it is not just a negative condition. He says that myostatin is also linked to tenderness in beef, and that is why some packers are paying a premium for myostatin carriers. Like most of these things, everyone has a theory and it gets confusing trying to sort through to the truth. I have found some of the research articles confusing as well, and some contradict each other. I am spending two weeks in Ireland and England in early August and I am hoping to find out more from their expertise in this area. I have not tested any of my former herd sires yet, but I am pretty certain some will prove to be myostatin carriers. I may be surprised, but that is what I am thinking right now. Like Scot mentioned, I have only had two double muscled calves in my herd, and strangely, both were from bloodlines I bought to add to my herd. The first one came from a cow I purchased in Alberta many years ago. Straight Canadian beef breeding, but the calf was line bred to a known myostatin carrier we know of today.  The second was from a set of embryos I purchased a few years ago. Again, both sire and dam were Canadian beef breeding and also like Scot mentioned, both these calves topped the market when I sold them. I did not have any calving issues from either one of these calves. Both females calved by themselves and the calves were extremely good looking until they got a bit older and the heavy muscling began to appear.
Like many others, I am scrambling to learn as much as I can about this condition, and I hope I can sort through the truth and the fiction and find out how to deal properly with it. It appears that one strain of myostatin may result in more calving and muscling issues than the others. I need more proof if this is actually true or not as well.
A commercial bull buyer who has purchased several bulls from me over the years, also purchased a Speckle Park bull in 2018. He told me that the Speckle Park breeder told him that he should not breed his Shorthorn cross cows to the Speckle Park bull because he could end up with some double muscled calves. He did breed 4-5 Shorthorn cows to the Speckle Park bull and all the calves are normal. I have never heard this from anyone else, but I guess there may be a chance this is true. Speckle Park are derived from blending Shorthorn and Angus bloodlines back in the 60s. I also have had an Angus breeder tell me that he had a purebred Angus calf that was double muscled a few years ago as well. If this is the case, it makes me wonder how significant myostatin is in other breeds? I have read that double muscling can be also found in Simmental as well. Again, I am not sure how common this is. Lots to learn yet!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 25, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
An interesting presentation done by the Speckle Park. The variant genes affecting myostatin were only discovered between 1998 and 2000 and the availabble tests are relatively recent. I thought the variation in types due to selection also interesting.


http://canadianspecklepark.ca/sites/default/files/files/DM%20AGM%20Revised%20Dec%202016%20rev%20May%202017.pdf (http://canadianspecklepark.ca/sites/default/files/files/DM%20AGM%20Revised%20Dec%202016%20rev%20May%202017.pdf)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on July 26, 2019, 07:55:11 AM
GAFA MOCHICAN is in Hot Commodity's pedigree.  In our pastures the cows expect calves by 3 myostatin untested AI sires with Mohican in the pedigree this fall.  Since there are many Shorthorns with Maine genetics in them in the U.S., on the pedigree as well as some whose breeders "forgot to write it down," there is urgency for DM/myostatin testing!  Many breeders are also using Canadian cattle tracing back to Mohican.  Using non-carriers should be a priority. 

I salute the Canadian breeders for their leadership and doing the right thing!  Our Homeplace Hot Commodity 1625 is being tested.  Testing sooner saves money.  What is the turn-around time for myostatin testing?  Is there still time to test cattle for this fall's sales?   
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 26, 2019, 12:21:34 PM
Interesting........I noticed Mandalong Super Flag on back also. I can't remember what thoughts were on him.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Shorthorn-Fed on July 26, 2019, 07:27:38 PM
I have talked with one breeder from the UK and he says that they are walking very carefully in regards to myostatin, as it is not just a negative condition. He says that myostatin is also linked to tenderness in beef, and that is why some packers are paying a premium for myostatin carriers. quote]

Im not gonna try not to wade into this debate too far as I have talked long and hard with many people but Grant I would have to agree with you and the proof for carcass data would be to look at the carriers sold in sales this past winter/spring who were ultrasounded and for the most part blew the rest out of the water. I can see both sides of the battle but in all this talk, very little has been spoke of actual breeding management linked with in-herd knowledge. The progressive breeders who have always bred like a chess game with 3 moves (years) ahead in mind arenít the ones melting down over an older trait. I believe transparency is key moving forward but I think it should be left for breeders to be managed and shouldnít  be put in the circle of shame for what it is.
Curious as to whether Morisonís supermarket in Britain is two years running gold winner of world champion steak is with myo carriers and influence of it in the shorthorns there.

For what my opinion is worth 🤷🏽‍♂️


Russ
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 27, 2019, 01:23:04 AM
If the myostatin gene carriers are significantly better carcasses.......is there potential for a branded beef line? If genetic tests get cheaper....you would have a way to dna select a superior tasting beef product.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 27, 2019, 12:09:57 PM
If the myostatin gene carriers are significantly better carcasses.......is there potential for a branded beef line? If genetic tests get cheaper....you would have a way to dna select a superior tasting beef product.


if better means devoid of marbling but tender, then you are going to have to compete with the pied branding.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Duncraggan on July 27, 2019, 12:17:46 PM
No marbling=No flavour!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 27, 2019, 08:14:27 PM
One thing about it.......with dna testing.....there is no way hold your mouth just right....and no place to hide.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 28, 2019, 07:44:14 AM
Since this is a wide spread thingy........and pretty complicated.......seems like the small breeds should defer the situation to a national data base. Let Steffen in Nebraska or whoever......the breed improvement association. It would be more coordinated.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 28, 2019, 09:34:03 AM
Whatís complicated.

Pretty simple.

If you want to know, just test.


I have a direct dabla cow.  Heís a carrier.  She tested clean.


Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 28, 2019, 10:19:52 AM
One thing about it.......with dna testing.....there is no way hold your mouth just right....and no place to hide.

DNA and modern communication have definitely changed things. With a few clicks of the mouse you can stumble into discovering both F94L & nt419 are still moving around just as E2226x has been.

We'll all watch real panic set in if/when they figure out how to accurately age an animal with it.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 28, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
What is complicated to me is that there are 7 variants? Which ones are the Shorthorn people supposed to be on the look out for?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 28, 2019, 12:05:46 PM
Whatís complicated.

Pretty simple.

If you want to know, just test.


I have a direct dabla cow.  Heís a carrier.  She tested clean. /// Thats it O0


Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 28, 2019, 12:18:12 PM
So is this right? You take a tissue from an ear by a allflex applicator. You put it in a tube a long with a form and a form card card. You send it to ASA. You can test.....say a yearling bull with the th,pha, ds package for 48 dollars plus an add on myostatin test for an additional 27 dollars. So my questions.....do you mail or ups the sample? Is the allflex applicator the same kind as you use for tagging or is it diifferent. If you check the myostatin box do they test for E226 or the whold damn bunch of variants? So basically for me to test a yearling bull it would be 75 bucks. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 28, 2019, 02:42:43 PM
i can't believe how hard it is to google information on myostatin from testing labs.

used to be pretty easy
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 28, 2019, 02:50:59 PM
If you check the myostatin box do they test for E226 or the whold damn bunch of variants?


every time i have done it, they tested for all 9 variants


not sure why the information is so hard to find now.


not a good customer relations outreach
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 28, 2019, 03:36:12 PM
So is this right? You take a tissue from an ear by a allflex applicator. You put it in a tube a long with a form and a form card card. You send it to ASA. You can test.....say a yearling bull with the th,pha, ds package for 48 dollars plus an add on myostatin test for an additional 27 dollars. So my questions.....do you mail or ups the sample? Is the allflex applicator the same kind as you use for tagging or is it diifferent. If you check the myostatin box do they test for E226 or the whold damn bunch of variants? So basically for me to test a yearling bull it would be 75 bucks. Thanks in advance.

I just use blood cards and mail it to the ASA. My form shows your $75 to be right, which is too damn high but I suppose the ASA doesn't have the bargaining power the AAA has. I was under the impression they tested for all 9 variants, but the results you get from the ASA aren't exactly clear and you only ever see results show up for E2226x, F94L & nt419 in the database.

I do not see a form, price, or any information to do testing directly through Geneseek/Neogen, even though I know they do it. In the past I had to contact them on some other testing in order for them to send me the correct form to use and it later showed up on their website.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 28, 2019, 03:47:00 PM
if one tested for all nine variants, the results for EACH should show up on that animals web page
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 28, 2019, 05:01:57 PM
knabe...did you go through the Shorthorn assn or direct? And when you say "animals web page"............is that on the labs web site or the Shorthorn Assn. web site or pedigree or whatever?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 28, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
So when you get the results from the ASA you get results for F94L, nt 419 and E226x. But what does it take........if you go through the ASA to get into the lab's web site that shows all 9 variants. Is there a code? Does the ASA block that? Can you see on the labs web site....all cattle that have been tested? Or is that all confidential information.?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 29, 2019, 11:31:38 AM
in general, these companies are getting really bad with customer service. you can't call them directly for results, updates or anything. you are directed to call your association, and you call them and they say they emailed them so there is NO feedback that the testing companies customer service experience sucks really bad.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 29, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
So when you get the results from the ASA you get results for F94L, nt 419 and E226x. But what does it take........if you go through the ASA to get into the lab's web site that shows all 9 variants. Is there a code? Does the ASA block that? Can you see on the labs web site....all cattle that have been tested? Or is that all confidential information.?

After waiting a few weeks, you'll get a pdf emailed to you from the ASA with a 0, 1, or 2 in the results column. Below it will be a "results translation" like this.

Result Translation:
0 = animal does not have the Myostatin Mutation at the idicated mares and will have normal muscling.
1 = animal has the mutation at one allele and will have increased muscling.
2 = both alleles have the mutation and the animal will have more muscling than a result of 1.

It's very vague and does't even mention which gene is being discussed, but you can then go to your animal's registration page in digital beef and see the results for the three you listed. 0's are clean and 1's are carriers. These results are supposed to be posted for all to see and added to the genetic conditions link just like the other defect lists, but I've tested several animals and only see one on the list.

For whatever reason, there is a huge disconnect between you and the actual lab. I'm sure they have their reasons, but in general the Associations are often not able to discuss genetics and the testing at a high level. It is what it is. I have however called Geneseek/Neogen, on another matter, and after playing phone tag for a few days I was able to talk directly with one of their phd type "lead researchers" for close to an hour. She was very helpful and handled every question I could come up with, or put me in contact with someone who could, even though you could tell her schedule was very full. I have not tried this with Myostatin, but I would like to know if they are actually testing for all 9 variants or just the three listed.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on July 29, 2019, 05:35:07 PM
We used to get the myostatin test results direct from Igenity. Neogen purchased Igenity and at the beginning of 2019 they purchased Delta Genomics the lab a lot of Canadian breeds used for their testing. I believe all the myostatin testing was done by Neogen as they owned the test. They test for all nine variants at the same time but their reports just show any existing variants the animal has. Our costs for testing dropped a bit after the Neogen purchase and if one does the 50K for enhanced DNA and genetic defects at the same time the genetic defects cost are reduced. The 50K includes parentage verification.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 29, 2019, 10:57:40 PM
pathetic.  can't even find links on their page using key words myostatin and double muscling.


customer service is pathetic.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 30, 2019, 05:59:55 AM
Interesting stuff. Good enough for me. When I get bulls caught up I 'll check for the 3 variants.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 31, 2019, 01:49:05 PM
When I started this I wanted to know more about the Myostatin gene, you all came through for me.  There has been a lot of information presented here.  I thank you all very much.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Hopster1000 on July 31, 2019, 02:44:24 PM
Has all the carrier SH animals tested so far shown up with E226X?
I was wondering about F94L and if it has appeared at all? The Limousin breed have it and quite often in the Irish system they score very high for their maternal qualities as well as their terminal qualities. In fact they often score higher than SH, SIM and Angus for maternal.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on August 03, 2019, 09:46:39 PM
Has all the carrier SH animals tested so far shown up with E226X?
I was wondering about F94L and if it has appeared at all? The Limousin breed have it and quite often in the Irish system they score very high for their maternal qualities as well as their terminal qualities. In fact they often score higher than SH, SIM and Angus for maternal.

It appears a couple have shown up carrying F94L and nt419, but no where near as often as e226x has shown up.

Limms were one of the breeds that basically disappeared from my area years ago when the push for quality grade and CAB took over. Anything that can't produce a high choice or prime carcass on a regular basis has been punished hard. Rib Eye size is also a concern for some markets as when feedlots push to maximize their pounds/profits it leads to cuts so large the end user is left with serving sizes their customers can't handle. It also caused some end use processors to experiment with getting creative by turning traditional cuts into multiple smaller cuts with new names that their customers didn't recognize.

Producing lean in most of the midwest also often leaves us competing with South American imports and wages. Current label laws have left the door open for these imports to be blended and appear so similar to an actual product of the US that customers either can't tell the difference or don't care. So to me, that market currently appears to be a good way to run out of money fast.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on August 06, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Muridale Thermal Energy is clean for Myostatin E226X (E226X).  Thanks to Bowman Superior Genetics for being transparent.  Let's hope other owners of AI sires follow suit.  Will entire cow herds need tested?  In the beginning let's test all AI bulls as well as walking bulls. 

Here's my take on double muscling.  In our cow herd I want to maintain genetics that are 100% functional and practical.  Anything that interferes with walking well, reproductive efficiency, or ease of calving is not worth it to us.

If you have not taken time to do so, see Speckle Park slides including photos of and about DM in Okotok's post on page 5 of this thread.  Together the many problems with myostatin spell train wreck.  Small testicles, late-breeding females, dystocia, pencil gutted, poor-moving, etc. are all DM characteristics to be avoided.  If others want to use DM terminal sire for niche market freezer beef, that will be their choice.  Do your own research.  As for me and my herd, we choose myostatin free.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on August 07, 2019, 07:25:48 AM
Cool.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: redcows on August 07, 2019, 12:38:02 PM
Good to hear Thermal Energy is clean. He is very impressive.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 07, 2019, 03:44:47 PM
Good to hear Thermal Energy is clean.


geothermal is clean too!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Goldenview on August 09, 2019, 01:18:18 AM
For the last 4 or 5 years I have just been sitting back and enjoying the show but now I cannot sit back and watch. I have a couple of questions that I can't find answers for.  I recently had a bull test positive for nt419 and I cannot find sufficient info on this specific variant and the information that I do find is pretty vague. If myostatin reduces fat cover and increases lean meet yield then why did this particular bull scan 0.58 fat thickness, 2.65 IMF, 0.51 rump fat and lean meat yield of 56.5 at 11 months old? Shouldn't he of had less fat and more lean meat yield? That's why I am wondering if all variants exhibit the same characteristics or are they slightly different? Also, I think I'm going to have to agree with Turning Grass Into Beef and (I never thought I would say this) Xbar on this one. I calf out close to 400 cows a year and I have only ever has 2 double muscled calves with the Belgian Blue butt. One was from a Shorty x Shorty and the other was a Simangus x Charolais. I do however get quite a few calves that have quite a bit of muscle. I have kept a lot of the females and so far I haven't had any problems.  I guess until I am faced with an all out wreck the myostatin status of a bull is not a high priority on my list. I as well view most things from a commercial standpoint and  pounds and muscle pay. I'm  willing to sacrifice the odd unmarketable calf if myo calves net me a higher return at the auction mart.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on August 09, 2019, 07:39:05 AM
nt419 is in various breeds as I understand it. And not known to have originated in any breed?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 09, 2019, 08:02:29 AM
This is what double muscling looks like.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 09, 2019, 09:43:57 AM
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/1297-9686-35-1-103.pdf (https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/1297-9686-35-1-103.pdf)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on August 09, 2019, 10:01:12 AM
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/1297-9686-35-1-103.pdf (https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1186/1297-9686-35-1-103.pdf)

Given the minimal frequency in which itís expressed,  do you feel the cost, time, and labor being spent on this topic is warranted ?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 09, 2019, 10:26:17 AM
Depends if it was an animal I wanted a lot of offspring out of.

The other way to look at it is 28 people die in hospitals every day from misdiagnosis, mistakes etc but no one is screaming for to ban hospitals

I donít understand the lack of outrage.

So in short, it depends.

I guess at some level one could say the same thing about every post on steer planet.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on August 09, 2019, 12:21:52 PM
I guess it depends on one's tolerance for dystocia. Our neighbor had a wreck with it last year with $1500 worth of vet bills and two dead calves. His current bull is myostatin free. Is this topic relevant to him?
I used two heifer bulls one was a 84 lb BW and one was 72 lb. As long as they were mated to none carriers life was good but I had c sections out of both of them from from carrier heifers that had affected calves. I sell bulls into the commercial market, if they are tested free I know my bull customers cannot have affected calves so it it is relevant to me.
I AI'd a couple of free cows to a carrier bull this year, I will test the calves. I have some carrier cows, I test their calves, knowledge of their status allows me to make breeding decisions.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on August 09, 2019, 01:04:47 PM
https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_miscellaneous&file=genetic_conditions

More myostatin will be found as U.S. breeders increasingly test for DM.  Surely Canadians do not like to waste money, and they test as a service to their customers.  It is a North American problem, and there are already dozens of E226X carriers found in Canada, including some with genetics from south of the border. 
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on August 09, 2019, 05:33:06 PM
Thanks Dale......worth clicking on.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 09, 2019, 11:01:06 PM
improver 3rd and jpj . interesting

Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: -XBAR- on August 09, 2019, 11:18:21 PM
I guess it depends on one's tolerance for dystocia. Our neighbor had a wreck with it last year with $1500 worth of vet bills and two dead calves. His current bull is myostatin free. Is this topic relevant to him?
I used two heifer bulls one was a 84 lb BW and one was 72 lb. As long as they were mated to none carriers life was good but I had c sections out of both of them from from carrier heifers that had affected calves. I sell bulls into the commercial market, if they are tested free I know my bull customers cannot have affected calves so it it is relevant to me.
I AI'd a couple of free cows to a carrier bull this year, I will test the calves. I have some carrier cows, I test their calves, knowledge of their status allows me to make breeding decisions.

Iím confused as to why your experiences are so different from those of Saskvalley and Muridale, both of whom have posted that out of several hundred calves theyíve had two homozygotes? 
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on August 09, 2019, 11:34:18 PM
I guess it depends on one's tolerance for dystocia. Our neighbor had a wreck with it last year with $1500 worth of vet bills and two dead calves. His current bull is myostatin free. Is this topic relevant to him?
I used two heifer bulls one was a 84 lb BW and one was 72 lb. As long as they were mated to none carriers life was good but I had c sections out of both of them from from carrier heifers that had affected calves. I sell bulls into the commercial market, if they are tested free I know my bull customers cannot have affected calves so it it is relevant to me.
I AI'd a couple of free cows to a carrier bull this year, I will test the calves. I have some carrier cows, I test their calves, knowledge of their status allows me to make breeding decisions.
/// JMO You are right on target-Its NOT as much about hiding your head in the sand and eliminating really good cattle you may have worked many years to achieve as to keeping things manageable-Just like the other defects-Breed a dirty one clean and dont lose the phenotype it took so long to produce etc-Just dont breed a carrier to the wrong carrier-and if you have enough of them the numbers will work in your favor- Clean ones will appear where they otherwise would not have had a chance O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on August 10, 2019, 12:27:57 AM
I guess it depends on one's tolerance for dystocia. Our neighbor had a wreck with it last year with $1500 worth of vet bills and two dead calves. His current bull is myostatin free. Is this topic relevant to him?
I used two heifer bulls one was a 84 lb BW and one was 72 lb. As long as they were mated to none carriers life was good but I had c sections out of both of them from from carrier heifers that had affected calves. I sell bulls into the commercial market, if they are tested free I know my bull customers cannot have affected calves so it it is relevant to me.
I AI'd a couple of free cows to a carrier bull this year, I will test the calves. I have some carrier cows, I test their calves, knowledge of their status allows me to make breeding decisions.

Iím confused as to why your experiences are so different from those of Saskvalley and Muridale, both of whom have posted that out of several hundred calves theyíve had two homozygotes?
I think it's because I introduced the myostatin to my herd a dozen years earlier and then brought it back in. The fact the test became available will probably prevent a lot of doubling up and a lot of grief. A breeder can use a myostatin carrier now and follow with a clean bull and not run into any trouble if he keeps track
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on August 10, 2019, 09:12:14 AM
Are you sure you are on the right column Knabe. Somehow I got the DS column first.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on August 10, 2019, 11:23:54 AM
Says carrier on both.


And double stuff too, so now heís quadruple stuff.


And improver himself.


I always wondered if some of these alleles in homo state added any thickness.


No way to know without crisper probably.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on August 10, 2019, 01:39:46 PM
I couldn't find that JPJ was a 226 carrier.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on August 21, 2019, 01:14:50 PM
Homeplace Hot Commodity 1625 is myostatin free of all three mutations.  The test results came back today.  It is on digitalbeef, if you want to look it up.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on December 21, 2019, 11:44:37 AM
Attached are the DNA results for Mandalong Super Flag showing him free of myostatin variants. Another animal to remove from the speculation list!
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on December 22, 2019, 07:27:00 PM
Interesting. Thanks
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on December 26, 2019, 10:21:26 PM
Do all variants of the myostatin gene contribute to lean tender beef? Or are there other expressions?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on December 27, 2019, 10:15:16 AM
Supposedly only the variant in Piedmontese has an intermediate measurable effect in a homozygous state. It has a stop codon very late in the allele while all the others are much earlier  and have no intermediate effect in a heterozygous state.

I havenít seen a comparison between homozygous variants though it probably exists and I missed it.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Boreal on December 27, 2019, 01:40:11 PM
Thereís definitely research demonstrating a positive effect on tenderness in Piedmontese heterozygotes. Thereís positive tenderness data on the F94L mutation as well. Iím fairly certain Iíve previously seen data on other mutations, too. That said, thereís a demonstrably negative effect on flavour and juiciness - particularly in homozygotes. As well, thereís interplay between myostatin and u-caplain - that changes things a bit. But research on that is new and limited.

The gist of most of the research is that a myostatin heterzygote will likely improve overall carcass quality without sacrificing much on the reproductive end of things.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on December 27, 2019, 02:14:46 PM
https://www.irishlimousin.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Limousin-Fact-Sheet-3-Myostatin-FINAL.pdf (https://www.irishlimousin.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Limousin-Fact-Sheet-3-Myostatin-FINAL.pdf)
https://www.progressivegenetics.ie/Blog/Post-Detail/Myostatin-Gene (https://www.progressivegenetics.ie/Blog/Post-Detail/Myostatin-Gene)
https://www.deltagenetics.com/uploads/1/3/3/9/13396868/jas8720091576-1581.pdf (https://www.deltagenetics.com/uploads/1/3/3/9/13396868/jas8720091576-1581.pdf)
https://www.semenstore.co.uk/pages/f94l-tested.html (https://www.semenstore.co.uk/pages/f94l-tested.html)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on December 27, 2019, 08:27:16 PM
I know where there is a bull that has one copy of F94L and one copy the of  E226 variant.  He is a nice thick bull with a really strong loin.  It seems like a guy like me who sells meat might get some good out of a bull like that used as a terminal cross on commercial cows. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on December 28, 2019, 08:51:23 AM
From the applied genetics point of view, the F94L might be useful.  What if any of your cows are carriers of E226?  If a resulting calf were to be homozygous E226, would that not be risky?  Judging from the Canadian testing of Shorthorns, E226 bull carriers now are at near 70 head. 

Some people ignore the myostatin issue, but we had a very large calf born a year ago, and that was reason enough to be sure that our herd bull is myostatin free, in case E226 is elsewhere in our cow herd.  Sometimes lightning strikes twice.  The giant calf at birth was from some POPULAR bloodlines, so I suspect double muscling is a potential problem down the road.  Like the TH defective calf that we had born back in 2005, the ginormous 2018 calf was something I do not want to happen again to our customers or here.

In 2019 every birth here at the Homeplace was unassisted, including a few first calf heifers.  Cowboys like for their cows to give birth on their own.  Trouble free works for me.

In a university herd I saw a double muscled Angus calf decades ago, born without assistance.  Homozygous carriers are not desirable.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on December 28, 2019, 09:01:47 AM
4282869 is the 2018 calf that inspired us to test our herd bull for myostatin.  At least 5 prominent Shorthorn bulls are in his pedigree as well as other widely-used bloodlines from the past.  Since a huge calf had not been born here in decades, one has to wonder if myostatin was coming into play?   
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on December 28, 2019, 09:47:27 AM
I know the source of the E226 variant, I do not have any of those genetics in my commercial herd.  That is why I think that if all offspring were marketed as beef it should not cause any problems in the future. Thanks for your comments, I want to be very careful about what I do.  I agree on the unassisted births.  I assisted one heifer last year.  One assist out of 160 births.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: idalee on December 28, 2019, 10:11:02 AM
It may be of interest to some of the readers that I recently tested some ET animals in my herd for Myostatin.    One ET daughter of CYT Sparkle Girl 0166  ET sired by Kamilaroi Meat Packer is positive for the E226X mutation.   Since Meat Packer is tested homozygous free in Canada,  this means that CYT Sparkle Girl is a carrier.    Then two of four  ET daughters of HC Sparkle Delight 77W were tested as carriers of the E226X mutation.   They are sired by Four Point Major who was never tested.  However, he has no genetics in his pedigree that are known or suggested as carriers.   Therefore,  this is suggestive, but not confirmative,  that Sparkle Delight 77W may be a carrier as well.
I have determined that I will have a Myostatin free herd so additional testing is in progress.     
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mbigelow on December 28, 2019, 10:13:41 AM
Dale- i did not see test results on the calf you had concerns about. So, did you just speculate that myo might be the culprit.   I have quite a few cows with very similar breeding to the bottom side of that pedigree.  I really dislike having to pay more and test for more things but, as they say, an ounce of prevention is much better than a pound to cure. On a positive note i really do like what i see from both your HC son and the one i have. Keep me posted on how you mate the daughters.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 28, 2019, 10:35:43 AM
I only had 2 Sr Red Rider drive calves-They were not big at birth due to the cow side but both had the double muscled look-I think the most pronounced Myostain "looking" bull I remember would be K Kim Hiest Elite Rider-real freaky looking O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on December 28, 2019, 12:10:38 PM
So far, 20 females and 28 bulls have results posted in the US database.
Compared to 283 females and 452 bulls posted in the Canadian database.
It looks like several of the US results were actually entered by Canadian breeders.

It's crazy how one little line on a map can have so much influence on something. Considering the consistant flow of genetics south and what some breeders have revealed about the genetics that flowed north, it'll be interesting to see the reaction when more people start testing animals in the US.

The marbling epd, even if accepted as being relatively unproven, seems to have a story to tell in many cases.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Hopster1000 on December 28, 2019, 01:01:12 PM
It may be of interest to some of the readers that I recently tested some ET animals in my herd for Myostatin.    One ET daughter of CYT Sparkle Girl 0166  ET sired by Kamilaroi Meat Packer is positive for the E226X mutation.   Since Meat Packer is tested homozygous free in Canada,  this means that CYT Sparkle Girl is a carrier.    Then two of four  ET daughters of HC Sparkle Delight 77W were tested as carriers of the E226X mutation.   They are sired by Four Point Major who was never tested.  However, he has no genetics in his pedigree that are known or suggested as carriers.   Therefore,  this is suggestive, but not confirmative,  that Sparkle Delight 77W may be a carrier as well.
I have determined that I will have a Myostatin free herd so additional testing is in progress.   

I also have an ET bull by Sparkle Girl and Meat Packet that carriers one E226X gene. I am assuming it comes from Diamond Captain Mark. He is just 16 months and I have tried him on a small number of cows I think are myostatin free.
I also have a cow with 2 copies. She has calved unassisted and milks well. She is from the Elsie's Jade line so assume she also got one copy of the E226X from Diamond Captain Mark.
I have had a little bit of experience with the E226X gene and it is not consistent across lines. Some lines are bigger calves and some lines have smaller calves.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on December 28, 2019, 01:16:41 PM
It's crazy how one little line on a map can have so much influence on something.


bull of the month club.  draft pick, PHA, Cunia, spastic pareisis and monkey mouth. double stuff is actually quadruple stuff i think.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on December 28, 2019, 04:14:46 PM
I apologize for not taking a sample from the calf, which we lost--my theory of myo is speculation, but surely something was out of the ordinary?  Canadians reported calving problems in homozygous calves, so I wondered if ours was a myo?

This calf was far outside our normal weight range.  We have not had one even close to this heavy in the last 2 decades.  Even during the 90's excessive birthweights we had nothing as large.  This calf's sire, Homeplace Cool, had no assists even from heifers in another herd (unrecorded data) where he was used.  Over the past 40 years, counting commercial cows, we have calved out a few thousand.  Our registered cattle have their birthweights turned in for 30 years, and progress has been made in moderating birthweights since 1999. 
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 28, 2019, 10:35:13 PM
Homeplace has had "Performance Tested Shorthorns" since way back since "Performance Testing became a function per se-Along with Waukaru in Indiana as well. I guess my questions would have to do with Red Rider Drive as he had some very old shorthorn genetics close up in his pedigree and certainly looked the part also-any feedback on Red Ryder? O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on December 29, 2019, 10:26:21 AM
I have kinda lost track of everything. So has the very hot bull "Hot Commodity" been tested. I had purchased a bull a couple years ago that goes back to Wakura Patent so I guess I need to be concerned. It's kind of funny that bull was tested cleaned of the other 3 deals. Now I have a new one to wonder about.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 29, 2019, 02:52:28 PM
Why would you be concerned about Patent? I think Dale is alluding to DFS Red Ryder who was sired by Red Rider Drive-Who sure didnt look like rodeo-neither did his calves -some of which were really cool Combine him with Strathore Irish Magic-He certainly was suspect "looking" from his pictures-He was supposed to be sired by a "maine" suspect according to his breeder-( that would be GS Irish Sweepstakes) Now you have the basics for Elite Rider who was pretty freaky looking O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mbigelow on December 29, 2019, 04:06:41 PM
We owned DFS Red Rider 839 flush mate to 844 which is in this calf's pedigree.   We used to wonder how anyone would consider these genetics low birth, calving ease?  We had multiple with abnormally large bw.  When i had a chat with Dr. Byers and Lincoln Job about there 878 calves they said the same thing eradic bw's. We just called it the Red Rider disease.  Mark, i think the magic line may have issues as well.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on December 29, 2019, 05:22:27 PM
Why would you be concerned about Patent?

Patent was tested in Canada and is listed as an E226x carrier.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on December 29, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
Cow has pedigree holes. Doesnít mean itís maine anjou.

Bull looks maine anjou.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on December 30, 2019, 05:08:45 PM
Cow has pedigree holes. Doesnít mean itís maine anjou.

Bull looks maine anjou./// Lotta water under the bridge-as Far as Irish Sweeptakes-the fullblood could possibly be from his dam -according to several people who were there-one being related to  his breeder O0
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on January 02, 2020, 07:55:46 AM
I guess I assume that "hot Commodity" is a carrier of some sort of the myostatin deal.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Okotoks on January 06, 2020, 02:27:46 PM
I guess I assume that "hot Commodity" is a carrier of some sort of the myostatin deal.
I don't think he is. The UK now requires all bull calves to be tested for myostatin before being registered. Australia now requires all imported bulls to be mystatin tested before registering them. I really don't understand why AI sires and herd bulls are not being tested by breeders. If a bull is tested it's a lot easier to make informed breeding decisions.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on January 11, 2020, 09:17:31 AM
Thanks
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on January 31, 2020, 09:16:55 AM
I have been reading a lot about Myostatin. When Myostatin is inhibited from regulating muscle growth, not only the number of muscle fibers continue to increase, but the type of muscle fibers that increase are the type II fast twitch fibers. Normally the muscle fibers in cattle are predominantly type I slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch and slow twitch muscles have different metabolic pathways for burning energy. Fast twitch fibers draw quick bursts of energy ( speed and strength) from circulating blood sugar and slow twitch muscles burn stored fat. Fastvtwitch muscles are bigger and stronger, but they fatigue quickly after blood sugar is exhausted. The animals pre slaughter and the meat, post slaughter, must be handled with care to prevent the muscle from becoming dark and tough. Before death the muscle may be more tender...but that can change with stress and temperature.
Fast twitch muscle is less insulin resistant than slow twitch because instead of sugar in the blood being stored as fat, it is burned for energy. Myostatin inhibition is being studied as a treatment for diabetes for this reason.
So, when I propose that Myostatin inhibition by the various mutation in cattle is an upstream response to recalibrate the metabolism to better survive downstream stress...at least there is logic to the idea. What is the fattening process other than lack of exercise and a high calorie diet? Cattle are evolved to walk, graze, rest and flee from predators occasionally. Most of the time they just walk and graze. Change the conditions of existence and nature might respond with variations in the dosage of the proteins that gene regulatory networks produce. Some are better, some worse. Heterozygosity is generally advantageous. So, I think the question is not whether a mutation is good or bad...profitable or not, but are these mutations advantageous under the conditions your cattle are living in? Beyond that, are the animals being handled in such a way that their muscles are not exhausted at the point of death and is the meat being handled appropriately to maintain tenderness?
http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Recasting-developmental-evolution-in-terms-of-genetic-pathway-and-network-evolution-------and-the-implications-for-comparative-biology-1.pdf (http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Recasting-developmental-evolution-in-terms-of-genetic-pathway-and-network-evolution-------and-the-implications-for-comparative-biology-1.pdf)
"Thus, while the concepts of pathway and network evo- lution outlined in this paper are neither particularly abstract nor difficult, they constitute a challenge to traditional think- ing and experimental analyses in both evolutionary and com- parative biology. Accordingly, their incorporation into the standard thinking of these fields might well proceed slowly."
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on January 31, 2020, 09:29:00 AM
I was mistaken about cattle normally having a majority of slow twitch muscle fibers. Only two mammalian species, thus far, have been found to have predominantly slow twitch muscle. Humans and the slow loris.
 https://www.inverse.com/article/33452-chimpanzee-super-strength-endurance-muscles-human (https://www.inverse.com/article/33452-chimpanzee-super-strength-endurance-muscles-human)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on January 31, 2020, 10:13:40 AM
So if a person had a bull that would increase the percentage of primal cuts and increase the tenderness it would seem like a person in the grass finished business where tenderness is so important would be very interested in that bull.  It seems like a bull with two copies of the F94L variant could be that bull.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on January 31, 2020, 10:37:17 AM
Yes...maybe. My opinion is it would take a lot of observation and quality control to determine if the final product was more palatable.  The producer would have to understand the physiological differences in the muscle fibers they are producing and have input on the processing protocol. Less fat cover means faster cooling. Cold shortening is an issue. The metabolic rate is higher in an animal with more fast twitch muscles and the internal temperature is higher. This affects post mortem ph. The amount of myoglobin in the blood is less and the meat could be pale or soft. Optimal slaughter age might be younger. All I really understand is that the mutation might be natures way of helping the animal dump excess blood sugar to prevent pathological obesity.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/meat-processing/Myoglobin-content (https://www.britannica.com/technology/meat-processing/Myoglobin-content)
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on January 31, 2020, 10:41:28 AM
Here is the ad our beloved steerplanet is showing me because I have been searching diabetes, obesity and metabolism.  The Myostatin mutation is addressing the same issue in cattle, I think.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on January 31, 2020, 04:24:13 PM
Here is the ad our beloved steerplanet is showing me because I have been searching diabetes, obesity and metabolism.  The Myostatin mutation is addressing the same issue in cattle, I think.

Myostatin is involved in the pop-up ads?

And if one has the right defect, they go away?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on January 31, 2020, 04:59:41 PM
Almost. You must be thinking of Buyostatin....one of the cyber-proteins.  If you inhibit Buyostatin, pop up ads become more numerous...sometimes to the point of squeezing out all other text.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on February 03, 2020, 09:24:34 AM
4296157
CSB BAXTER LEARJET G23
Homozygous Carrier (of F94L)

His photo is on digitalbeef.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 09:30:58 AM
I have been reading a lot about Myostatin. When Myostatin is inhibited from regulating muscle growth, not only the number of muscle fibers continue to increase, but the type of muscle fibers that increase are the type II fast twitch fibers. Normally the muscle fibers in cattle are predominantly type I slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch and slow twitch muscles have different metabolic pathways for burning energy. Fast twitch fibers draw quick bursts of energy ( speed and strength) from circulating blood sugar and slow twitch muscles burn stored fat. Fastvtwitch muscles are bigger and stronger, but they fatigue quickly after blood sugar is exhausted. The animals pre slaughter and the meat, post slaughter, must be handled with care to prevent the muscle from becoming dark and tough. Before death the muscle may be more tender...but that can change with stress and temperature.

Fast twitch muscle is less insulin resistant than slow twitch because instead of sugar in the blood being stored as fat, it is burned for energy. Myostatin inhibition is being studied as a treatment for diabetes for this reason.
So, when I propose that Myostatin inhibition by the various mutation in cattle is an upstream response to recalibrate the metabolism to better survive downstream stress...at least there is logic to the idea. What is the fattening process other than lack of exercise and a high calorie diet? Cattle are evolved to walk, graze, rest and flee from predators occasionally. Most of the time they just walk and graze. Change the conditions of existence and nature might respond with variations in the dosage of the proteins that gene regulatory networks produce. Some are better, some worse. Heterozygosity is generally advantageous. So, I think the question is not whether a mutation is good or bad...profitable or not, but are these mutations advantageous under the conditions your cattle are living in? Beyond that, are the animals being handled in such a way that their muscles are not exhausted at the point of death and is the meat being handled appropriately to maintain tenderness?
[url]http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Recasting-developmental-evolution-in-terms-of-genetic-pathway-and-network-evolution-------and-the-implications-for-comparative-biology-1.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.esalq.usp.br/lepse/imgs/conteudo_thumb/Recasting-developmental-evolution-in-terms-of-genetic-pathway-and-network-evolution-------and-the-implications-for-comparative-biology-1.pdf[/url])
"Thus, while the concepts of pathway and network evo- lution outlined in this paper are neither particularly abstract nor difficult, they constitute a challenge to traditional think- ing and experimental analyses in both evolutionary and com- parative biology. Accordingly, their incorporation into the standard thinking of these fields might well proceed slowly."

A very straightforward review of the pros and cons of Myostatin mutations in beef production
http://www.beefmastersa.co.za/images/photos/46-78-Beefmaster_Journal_2019.pdf (http://www.beefmastersa.co.za/images/photos/46-78-Beefmaster_Journal_2019.pdf)

Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: librarian on February 03, 2020, 09:49:45 AM
Haplotype diversity of the myostatin gene among beef cattle breeds
Susana Dunner, M. Eugenia Miranda, Yves Amigues, Javier Can ̃ ́on, Michel Georges, Roger Hanset, John Williams, Fran ̧cois M ́enissier
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281501888_Haplotype_diversity_of_the_myostatin_gene_among_beef_breeds/fulltext/55f8d82c08ae07629de131d0/281501888_Haplotype_diversity_of_the_myostatin_gene_among_beef_breeds.pdf?origin=publication_detail (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281501888_Haplotype_diversity_of_the_myostatin_gene_among_beef_breeds/fulltext/55f8d82c08ae07629de131d0/281501888_Haplotype_diversity_of_the_myostatin_gene_among_beef_breeds.pdf?origin=publication_detail)
"One hypothesis is the extensive dissemination of individuals of the Shorthorn breed used in the late 19th century to improve most western European bovine breeds which would explain the presence of the trait [10, 25], and the other being the Friesian breed [9, 20, 31] or more generally milk purpose black pied bovine populations from the Baltic plain (Hanset, pers. comm.), being responsible for spreading the mutation all over western Europe [25]."
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Dale on June 28, 2020, 02:06:10 PM
https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2001/myostatin-and-its-use-in-beef-shorthorn-breeding (https://www.beefshorthorn.org/beef-shorthorn-news/2001/myostatin-and-its-use-in-beef-shorthorn-breeding)


20 January 2020  Breed News, Society News
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on June 28, 2020, 02:49:42 PM
A market for less beef but of better eating quality and with environmental credentials and provenance will potentially lend itself more to forage based systems and inputs perceived as more Ďnaturalí. The Beef Shorthorn is well placed to position itself as a breed that does all of this and more. However, a careful eye on sensibly exploiting the Myostatin deletions for the current market while conserving the breedís other attributes may serve dividends in keeping the Beef Shorthorn relevant to future markets."

article is misleading.

any breed has the same capability of shorthorns with regard to the myostatin gene. really, the only breed that is well placed is piedmontese. they seem to have two types of homozygous lines.  one's that appear normal, and ones that appear heavier muscled.

normally, the breed is homozygus.  However, recently a bull was found to be heterozygous and a notice went out within the breed.

almost every breed has the same literature. there is simply more diversity within than between breeds.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on June 29, 2020, 02:54:10 PM
So on Learjet......could he be a carrier on both sides?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on June 29, 2020, 03:44:23 PM
So on Learjet......could he be a carrier on both sides?

If he is out of who his pedigree says he is, they are both carriers. There's also the possibility that they are more than carriers.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 01, 2020, 01:39:30 PM
Thanks. If they are more than carriers.....they could be double muscled?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Medium Rare on July 01, 2020, 04:17:53 PM
Thanks. If they are more than carriers.....they could be double muscled?

I guess it depends on how you define "double muscled". I've yet to see a shorthorn present as double muscled in the way we tend to think of the Belgian Blue cattle being double muscled. They've taken the presentation to the extreme. You can see some Shorthorn x Limousin calves that look pretty close to it though with huge shoulders, a tight middle, and well defined muscles.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: shortybreeder on July 01, 2020, 08:58:26 PM
Thanks. If they are more than carriers.....they could be double muscled?

I guess it depends on how you define "double muscled". I've yet to see a shorthorn present as double muscled in the way we tend to think of the Belgian Blue cattle being double muscled. They've taken the presentation to the extreme. You can see some Shorthorn x Limousin calves that look pretty close to it though with huge shoulders, a tight middle, and well defined muscles.
I've come across a couple in my travels. The breeders made me swear to secrecy where they were and how they were bred because they didn't want the world to know they had that problem. I can assure you they are out there, but nobody wants their name tied to that so they don't let pictures get out showing it. I've even seen a double muscled calf with no tail.. that was one ugly looking bull calf.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 05, 2020, 01:57:21 PM
double stuff.
double trouble
battle of the bulge
junk in the trunk
double vision
wiggle wham
steroids free
hittin it out of the park
755, the real bull
yoda


etc.

Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: beebe on July 21, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Do bulls that carry the Myostatin gene tend to have smaller testicles?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on July 21, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
I don't understand knabe's post and his list of bulls. Double Stuff isn't positive for myostatin is he?
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 21, 2020, 07:34:27 PM
I don't understand knabe's post and his list of bulls. Double Stuff isn't positive for myostatin is he?///// LOL O0 <alien>
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 21, 2020, 09:20:53 PM
Do bulls that carry the Myostatin gene tend to have smaller testicles?

Not sure about that. But if they are homozygous , then yes, definitely.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on July 21, 2020, 09:25:13 PM
I don't understand knabe's post and his list of bulls. Double Stuff isn't positive for myostatin is he?///// LOL O0 <alien>

Makes sense. Brings to mind a whole new set of bulls

Double blind
Two ignorant
Twice fooled
Twofer
Dumb and dumber
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: Hopster1000 on July 22, 2020, 02:25:10 AM
From my own personal experience the affects of the myostatin deletion are not at all consistent. I have a double muscled SH cow. Fairly sure she has 2 copies. She is very muscled, but has calved unassisted, has enough milk and is a good mother. Calves are about 38kg (which is small for here) they don't show muscle at the start, but then do after a couple of weeks.
As with most herds there are a few carriers. One or two carriers seem a bit harder to calf, but most don't. Myostatin free cows that then have myostatin carrier calves are also inconsistent as some calves are larger while many are normal at birth and develop some muscle later. The muscle development is also inconsistent as some carrier calves can have defined muscle while some are the softest easiest fleshing.
Bull testicle size is not consistent either as I had a carrier bull with very large testicles. Some are obviously smaller but I haven't seen a carrier bull with testicles that are too small.  Homogeneous SH bulls can't be registered here so not sure about their testicle size.
All these example would be for the same myostatin deletion.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: aj on September 06, 2020, 05:49:52 PM
El bumpo.
Title: Re: Myostatin gene
Post by: knabe on September 06, 2020, 07:28:24 PM
Please provide info instead of just bumping thread.

Thunderhead is dm free.  Not that he was a suspect.

https://maine-anjou.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=58

Click on dna tab.