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Offline Telos

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 03:52:39 AM »
Anyone see the neanderthal vs. cromagnun deal on history channel. Kinda interesting. :o

What is interesting, Neanderthals were better adapted during the Ice Ages then Homo Sapiens, but their evolutionary path seemed to have come to a dead end. Agility was probaby the main difference between the species. Modern Humans were more agile in their design and were better hunters for the more open prairies after the last Ice Age then the Neanderthals.
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Offline knabe

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 09:09:16 AM »
Knabe, if theres no such thing as "Native Americans" then who owns all the tax free casinos? ???

humans don't seem to be native to the america's.  perhaps when the earth was in early stages of pangea, and when the oceans were at least 300 feet lower, sea travel was a little easier, especially from africa to south america.  there are too many buried remnants of civilizations under the ocean especially in india for us to not be more curious about it.  i tend to believe man was a little more well traveled than we give him credit for back in the day.

america owns the tax free casino's as they can end this redistribution of gambling/dependence mentality anytime they want.  to me, this is simply discrimination.  american's don't have the same priveleges, especially when it comes to environmental laws, something the benevolent people don't have to be held account to.  what a joke.
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Offline aj

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2008, 08:43:09 PM »
Telos...the other point the show made was ..........the cromag people probably out distanced the neanderthal because they developed language and communication, because their species were smarter? Words mean things.....wealth is fragile.....knowledge is king. It isn't the biggest and roughest and toughest that always survive. Unless....There is no doubt in my mind that another ice age is coming unless the creator pulls the plug first. I know the last glaciers extended to the middle of Nebraska roughly 18,000 years ago. It will happen again. Most peoples grasp of history starts when they are born and ends when they die.There is a real good chance willie nelson and I will be dead when the next Ice age does hit....but It is cool to ponder. ;D
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline knabe

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 09:22:42 AM »
i don't think willie thinks the ice age is coming, though the clash do.
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Offline Telos

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 01:02:01 PM »
There is research of the mitochondrial DNA or other genetic differences of Humans and Neanderthals. Maybe Knabe can find some of these studies and tell us in LAYMAN terms what they have concluded.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2008, 01:25:28 PM »
I read an article awhile back about "Mitochrondrial Eve", the women that theorectially all females can be traced back to through the mitochrondrial DNA that is passed on through the maternal side.  I'm sure Knabe could elaborate on this also.
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Offline knabe

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2008, 01:58:46 PM »
mitochondria.  it is thought that none come through the male side, though a very small minority of scientists speculate that some could get through and not be killed by foreign mitochondria detection in the egg.  some think this may be a source of male prepotency, though this is likely due to methylation, homozygosity.

mitochondria exist outside the nucleous, where the genomic DNA is (inside the nucleous), even though the genes for mitochodria are inside the nucleous.

hence, only female mitochodria are transmitted from generation to generation as they exist in every egg cell.  they supposedly are highly conserved and don't mutate much, probably much less than the y chromosome of males, though at some point in the future they may have the same mutation rate.  if Y mutates too much and too many males can't reproduce,there may be pressure on females to be self fertile like komodo dragons and other organisms.  "eve" is simply an attempt to identify the mitochondria that have the oldest and most diverse set of polymorphism that all the other ones have.  eve is not universally accepted.

the rate of mutation (in mitochondria) can be compared between racial types, ie caucasion, asian, african etc, and since it is thought everyone is out of africa, debatable too, that the most diverse mitochondria are in the african population, also the same in genomic DNA.  the reason for this is that other "races" other than african, is that they have gone through bottlenecks of selection pressure, similar to eliminating PHAC from the population, even though the other allele may prove to be useful, which it has been, as there have been a lot of PHAF from carrier lines that are outstanding.

i'll look up the Neanderthals and others.

there are genes such as the speaking gene, the big brain gene. perhaps one of the most interesting genes for this discussion is the one where a family somewhere in china or eastern europe, i can't remember, where they grunt, have limited vocabulary if any, and kinda run around on all fours.  of course the big brain gene is an immediate path down racism as you could easily deduce which populations have maximum penetration of this gene.  also, genes like the one that gives resistance to plague, also gives resistance to aids, largley in about 10% of causcasion populations.  it could get to the point where goverment could say one is obligated to crossbreed with those that don't have it to save human life.  the path down this avenue is not too far fetched.

is the above LAYMEN enough?
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Offline knabe

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2008, 04:02:57 PM »
here's the most interesting article i found so far

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

Abstract

In the past there have been numerous theories for the cause(s) of autism, Asperger's syndrome, ADHD and Tourette syndrome. Most of these theories can at best explain small parts of these diverse syndromes. Many of them extend their findings in spectacular ways to be able to claim to explain larger parts of the autism spectrum with little success.

This theory approaches the problem from a new radical viewpoint. Instead of approaching autism as a disorder, brain defect or the result of poor socialization or parenting, it claims that autistics are fully functional.

All the areas that are central to autism are related to species-typical adaptations that vary widely between species. These include nonverbal signals, social organization, sensory acuteness, motor skills, general preferences, sexuality, physical traits and biological adaptations. Some of this diversity in autistics is poorly understood and virtually unresearched and therefore is not published in peer-reviewed journals. Because of this lack of research, Aspie-quiz, an online questionnary, is heavily referenced for these traits.

Recent genetic research have demonstrated that the Out-of-Africa (OoA) model with no interbreeding fails to explain nuclear DNA diversity in Eurasia. Several models of interbreeding that do explain this diversity exists today. It therefore is quite likely that Neanderthals contributed to the Caucasian genome. Aspie-quiz have demonstrated in a large survey in the US population that Afroamericans have only 1/6 of the autism prevalence of Caucasians. The same survey also indicates that Asians and American Indians have about 1/2 of the autism prevalence of Caucasians.

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of Aspie-quiz yields axises that seems to be related to the first Eurasian Homo, the formation of modern humans in Africa or South Asia and the hybridization between modern humans and Neanderthals in Europe. These axises seems to be 1.8 million years, 150,000 years and 37,000 years, which fits pretty good with the archaeologic evidences available.
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Offline chambero

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 05:04:07 PM »
This is another area of semi interest of mine.
Descendants of native Americans came over roughly 10,000 years ago during the Ice Age via the land bridge that formed between Asia and Alaska when sea levels were much lower.  Those migrations did happen.  Doesn't mean those were the first migrations or that others via boat didn't happen before or (most likely) after.

There is lots of evidence (realtively speaking) and lore of ancient travel between the continents.  A famous one is of a Welsh prince named Madoc (sp?) who apparently came over here with some folks.  A tribe of blue-eyed Indians called the Mandans claimed to have descended from those people.  Likewise, stories from the other side of the pond about a dude of the same name heading west.

The paints of the Nez Perce reportedly don't trace genetically to the mustang.  I've never really read up on it though.

Way too much coincidence between the pyramids of Egypt and South America for there not to be some kind of communication.

Very little got written down during the Dark Ages and records of travel just don't exist except through oral tradition.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We know the Vikings were here before Columbus.  Why not others long before them. 

Not to be trite, but most written records (literally) before the time of Rome were lost in the fire that consumed the Alexandria Library.  No telling what was really lost.

Any time ancient human remains are found now in this country, Indian tribes cite the applicable laws and immediately prevent any genetic and archeological study of the remains and surrounding site.  Famous site on the Columbia River showed strong evidence of "not typical" lineage but study was shut down via lawsuit.

A great book is "Guns, Germs, and Steel" which provides some pretty common sense theories on why the world is like it is now.

Offline Telos

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2008, 10:20:15 PM »
Interesting read Knabe. Logical theories. Thanks.
I think I acquired too many Neanderthal alleles.
Jack Jabara

Offline Dusty

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2008, 08:00:37 AM »
Interesting read Knabe. Logical theories. Thanks.
I think I acquired too many Neanderthal alleles.

I'm with you I think.  After I read that article, I thought wow that explains a lot of things....
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Offline aj

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2008, 12:15:17 PM »
Paul Martin came up with a interesting scenario.A band of 100 hunters start at Edmonton Canada in say11,500 bc. If the moved south 10 miles a year...and had ahigh reproduction rate ...they would arrive at the gulf of mexico in 10,930 bc.   He came up with a total of 600,000 population in north america in this scenario from the original 100 people. Its a interesting model. Kansas currently has a population of say 2,500,000 people in the state.What is the USA population now...bout 300,000,000?
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline venable@tds.net

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 10:53:40 AM »
This is all great stuff, but the really good question is what would the show steer look like back then.  Best hair ever!  Maybe a frame 10-11.   Disposition may not be too good as well.   May have a row of teeth on the top and bottom.  May be a little sharp. (thumbsup) (thumbsup)

Offline red

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 11:05:58 AM »
This is all great stuff, but the really good question is what would the show steer look like back then.  Best hair ever!  Maybe a frame 10-11.   Disposition may not be too good as well.   May have a row of teeth on the top and bottom.  May be a little sharp. (thumbsup) (thumbsup)

more likley would look like a yak!

Red
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Offline knabe

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Re: native amercians
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 02:22:12 PM »
no, they would look like auroch's, which i guess look like yak's.  don't know how close a relative they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

http://www.petermaas.nl/extinct/speciesinfo/aurochs.htm
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