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Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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I kust have two female calve ssired by Kinnaber Leader 9th. Also have semen of Cruachan Max Leader 551, by unfortunatelly only 1 straw. Big Genen I own a good sort straws. Also have some more 60's and 70's bulls semen....just looking for embryos from Native line to keep this lie alive here in southern Brazil.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Yes....no Native females here. All Shorthorn on Latin America show some Lincoln Red infusion on late 70's - 80's, and recently lots of appendix infusions through american bulls.
I have semen, presumibly Native status, from around 8 to 10 bulls. Wish keep a pure Native line here in Brazil, but without females....no line will starts.
 

RyanChandler

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I'm pretty sure I've read JIT on here state that there are no pure scotch lines in existence anymore.  Maybe I misread?
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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On sequence.....
Cruachan Max Leader 551
Kinnaber Leader 9th (Big Gene)
Lone Pine Grand Society
 

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HerefordGuy

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sjleppert18-
I have had some conversations about Native Shorthorns with Roy Lovaas. In fact we actually did some DNA studies comparing Shorthorn, Milking Shorthorn, Native Shorthorn, Irish-influenced Shorthorn, and Lincoln Red.
http://steakgenomics.blogspot.com/2014/08/applying-new-technologies-to.html
The article was originally published in the "Lincoln Letter", but it is no longer online, so I posted a copy on my blog.
 

oakview

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Interesting article.  I would like to see the same "dot graph" applied to today's Angus, for example, compared to the 50's and early 60's genetics (or earlier).  It would be interesting to see what type of influence the Holsteins, Maines, or whatever else was used to get them big, had.  I assume a similar influence, though perhaps not as widespread or significant, would show up in Herefords.  I also assume the "dots" would be more widespread in the continental breeds, particularly those that have turned black over the past several generations. 
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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I knew this article, is very good. Agree with Oakview.
Would to be interest see what animal is refering to what dot. Could to be a good answer for some questions.
Irish is almost another breed on this paper.
This process could to be used to "really" determine what animals are Netive, not only pedigrees, as pedigrees are fail to be fake.
I have some samples that should to be interest to test too!
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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100% agree.....I think that with a similar work like that showed on paper, we can avoid mistakes through fake pedigrees, and losing rare and expensive semen with wrong cows or vice-versa.
We need to check on DNA basis if Native and 100% ones are really what they tell.
I know that someone will tell that many pedigrees are not exactly what they are, due to this, a DNA analises is necessary.....
 

idalee

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Thanks for posting these great pictures of older Shorthorn genetics.  I note with pleasure the correct rump conformation exhibited by these cattle which is so much in contrast to the rumps currently in favor in our show rings.      I would suggest, however, that there may be some confusion regarding the "Native" designation.  In 1998 the American Milking Shorthorn Society established an official registration for cattle whose entire registry traces to Coates Herdbook.  These pedigrees, which have been traced by the American  Milking Shorthorn Society, have a  "N" designation as part of their registered name.    For example, the  Milking Shorthorn bull,  J Bar J Lincoln 827 N P.    The "N" certifies that he is "Native" and the "P" certifies that he is polled.  I would add that those designations do not carry over to the pedigree name when those animals are double registered with the American Shorthorn Association so you won't know by looking at an ASA pedigree if those animals are truly "Native" or not.  Only those cattle who have been traced,  or whose parentage has been  traced,  may have this registration name.    There are other older Shorthorn genetics which have an accepted identification of "native" which have not been traced by Milking Shorthorn nor will they trace.  An example of this is Mandalong Super Flag.    This doesn't change the obvious merit of this bull but people should be aware that just because the genetics are old,  doesn't mean that they are "Native" as certified by Milking Shorthorn. 
 

sue

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We offered the "collectors edition" in our 2005,06 and 07 consignments sales (Lakeside Invitational). I cannot even list the amount of older semen offered in those sales. I met Dennis through this offering and many more breeders.... most only "hoard " and never used the semen. Just this past spring sold the last of my personal collection and I am certain Bobby used it. I still get calls and emails - wish someone would establish a web page specifically for the old stuff.  I dont feel as inspired to use or go back to this population as I once did.  Thank you for posting photos . . maybe you were one of the buyers?  Best of Luck
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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idalee said:
Thanks for posting these great pictures of older Shorthorn genetics.  I note with pleasure the correct rump conformation exhibited by these cattle which is so much in contrast to the rumps currently in favor in our show rings.      I would suggest, however, that there may be some confusion regarding the "Native" designation.  In 1998 the American Milking Shorthorn Society established an official registration for cattle whose entire registry traces to Coates Herdbook.  These pedigrees, which have been traced by the American  Milking Shorthorn Society, have a  "N" designation as part of their registered name.    For example, the  Milking Shorthorn bull,  J Bar J Lincoln 827 N P.    The "N" certifies that he is "Native" and the "P" certifies that he is polled.  I would add that those designations do not carry over to the pedigree name when those animals are double registered with the American Shorthorn Association so you won't know by looking at an ASA pedigree if those animals are truly "Native" or not.  Only those cattle who have been traced,  or whose parentage has been  traced,  may have this registration name.    There are other older Shorthorn genetics which have an accepted identification of "native" which have not been traced by Milking Shorthorn nor will they trace.  An example of this is Mandalong Super Flag.    This doesn't change the obvious merit of this bull but people should be aware that just because the genetics are old,  doesn't mean that they are "Native" as certified by Milking Shorthorn.


Thanks for explain the Native program. By my pics share, I was looking to show some old genetics on my inverory, not was assuming that they are native.
But I would like to get some Native embryos, since that they can confirm their origin, for establishe a nucleous herd here in southern Brazil, as I own some old bulls pre new type here I would like to keep this kind genetics alive.
By the way, pedigrees are not an accurate, but an useful way to select pure genetics.
Thanks
 

HerefordGuy

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oakview said:
Interesting article.  I would like to see the same "dot graph" applied to today's Angus, for example, compared to the 50's and early 60's genetics (or earlier).  It would be interesting to see what type of influence the Holsteins, Maines, or whatever else was used to get them big, had.  I assume a similar influence, though perhaps not as widespread or significant, would show up in Herefords.  I also assume the "dots" would be more widespread in the continental breeds, particularly those that have turned black over the past several generations.
Attached is Figure S15 from Decker et al 2012. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/13/606
The data set has samples from 1955 to about 2009.
The animals in red are from the Wye herd. http://agresearch.umd.edu/wye/angus
The animals in blue are related to EXT. The EXT family was the most heavily sampled family, thus it accounts for a large portion of the variation in the sample and is identified as the second principal component.

You may also be interested in http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004254.

I like the policy of the American Hereford Association that every herd bull needs to be parentage tested in order for calves to be registered.
 

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librarian

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Thank you for starting this interesting thread. My interest in older Shorthorn genetics has certainly evolved over time, and my question, these days, is what are the qualities we feel the older genetics retain that have been lost of diluted by subsequent breeding trends?  How will those traits be useful in breeding animals that reproduce profitably and predictably in the future?
I would appreciate opinions from those who have seen these trends change over time.

JIT made a great observation relating to the genetic defects discussion, " that was when I decided that there was really no such thing as a 100% pure animal in the Shorthorn breed or in any other breed for that matter.  Good cattle are good cattle. We all need to study our lessons and we all need to be testing for defects, so that we can breed and build better cattle for the long run in this business. Far too many people only think of short term gains."

I think that there are so many different types of Shorthorns because there are so many different types of breeders selecting for performance in various environments and end markets.  At one time I wanted to believe that the Shorthorn blood ran deep and true, but really it's a cosmopolitan breed and with that heterogeneity comes plasticity. Adaptability is a genetic virtue and the key to survival, so by blending the best of the old with the best of the new, we should be able to take this breed forward if we use the genetic testing available and stop selecting for dysfunction. 
Thanks for the photos and to all the breeders who keep those Native lines going.

 

librarian

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I could not agree more about the breeders eye. I try to look at the whole herd to understand what the breeder is selecting for.
Then I look at pedigrees to see how far back the animals have been bred by the same person. That person has been learning all the time and the more generations of learning the deeper the understanding.  Then, I would test just because we can.
It's taken me a while to look at animals as elements of a population rather than as individuals.  I am going back toward Native genetics with my herd once I get a solid shot of primeval Scotch genetics in there to invigorate things.
I have looked at lots of pedigrees and more than once there has been an animal I thought would be a really good one, and when I look up at the owner, your name is there.
 
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