need advice- county fair sale rules

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5PCC

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Jan 27, 2013
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190
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Northeast Missouri
I have been on the Fair Board for our local County Fair for the last 4 years. We are hot and heavy in the planning process for our July fair. We have had a hot debate for at least the last four years, and probably much longer than that regarding our ANNUAL 4-H/FFA SALE. Any comments or advice would be appreciated...

Currently, our annual 4-H sale works this way...
A sale barn close to us sets "the floor price" (per pound) for the market animal (beef, swine, sheep, and goats) early in the day. Right now, floor price is the same regardless of the quality of the animal. A change put into place last year was to set a lower floor price for market swine that were well beyond the desired market weight, because the sale barn took a big hit on those animals.

The person with the winning bid at the sale does not typically take the animal. Instead, the buyer pays the exhibitor the selling price ABOVE THE FLOOR PRICE. The sale barn pays the exhibitor THE VALUE OF THE FLOOR PRICE. The exhibitor is then responsible for getting their animal to the sale barn to be sold at their next sale or sent to the packing house (to hopefully offset the money that they have put into the animal). On occasion, a buyer will take the animal home or to the locker. If that is the case, they obviously pay for the entire animal.

This year, there is a rule that if your market animal weighs above a pre-determined weight, you may SHOW at the fair, but you may not SALE at the annual county fair sale. (I'm not saying that I do or do not agree with this rule. I'm just saying that it is a new rule.) My family only shows beef. Market steers/heifers weighing OVER 1450 pounds on the day of the show weigh-in, will not be able to sale later in the week. Yes, there are a lot of families that are not happy with this rule. I do believe that the person who introduced the rule tied to be generous with the numbers that he/she proposed. The idea was to minimize loss for the sale barn and try to teach the child what is accepted as a marketable animal (because 4-H is about learning by doing). I imagine that next year there will be a similar rule involving weigh minimums. (Keep in mind that these are just facts that I am presenting. I may or may not agree with these rules. I'm looking for tips and pointers to make things better, not criticism on why we do it this way.)

***We have argued for years over the idea of changing the sale to a PREMIUM ONLY SALE where the kids get a little money out of their project, but then retain ownership to do whatever they want with it (like sell it at the local sale barn). Some people I know (in other counties) show market heifers, get a little money at the 4-H sale, and then turn the heifer out in the pasture and breed her, although there is always the risk that feeding the heifer too hard would cause breeding problems.

***We've talked about setting a different floor price on EVERY ANIMAL (based on quality of the animal) instead of having the same floor price for the entire species.

***There are those who think that setting the floor price per HEAD instead of per POUND would be helpful to those buyers who are not typical livestock buyers (the local farm store, or grocery store, for example). I've talked to a buyer who feels that 4-H sales that sell animals PER HEAD (instead of per pound) typically see higher selling animals (based on what he has seen).

***One more thing, our county has a somewhat adversarial relationship between the livestock showers and the non-livestock showers (not necessarily the kids, but some of the parents). The art hall exhibitors don't understand why a steer sells for $3000 when the real market value of the animal is less than half of that. The livestock exhibitors do not understand why a loaf of banana bread sells for $350.

So a few years ago, the Sale Committee started a Clover Shares sell. There are 4 clovers (for the 4 leaf clover 4-H emblem) up for auction during the annual 4-H sale. Each clover typically sells for something like $1500 to $3000. This money is pooled together and then given to the 4-H exhibitors WHO DID NOT SELL SOMETHING at the annual 4-H sale. This is based on some formula of the number of projects you were in, the number of projects you showed something in, etc. But an exhibitor is only eligible for clover shares if they complete the year, meaning they complete their project records. Apparently, there has been a county-wide issue with kids not completing their end-of-the-year project records.

Some like the clover shares sell and some think that it takes away from the money that the buyers would otherwise spend on the livestock and other items that are up for sale. (I guess it probably depends on if you sell something in the sale or not.) Some buyers like the idea of giving money to more than one child. Some people think that a monetary incentive is not necessary to get kids to complete their paperwork. My kids got clover shares the first year that it was started (because the kids were small and they were just showing bucket calves). They got around $175 each.


Our Fair Board representation typically includes: parents of kids who exhibit only Art Hall type items (foods, woodworking, shooting sports, etc). It is great to have their representation, but they may not have a complete grasp of the livestock industry. There are those who make their living as hog farmers or run a cow/calf operation, and show their species only once a year at the County Fair. Obviously, they understand the livestock industry, but not necessarily the show circuit. There is a limited number of families in the county with extensive showing experience. I am fortunate in that I showed a lot when I was younger. My parents owned a Sale Barn for a while when I was younger. My step-father owned a sale barn for many years and was a cattle buyer up until the day he died. My husband and I have about 100 head of cows in our cow/calf operation. My point is...I feel that I have a pretty rounded experience in 4-H, the show circuit, and the livestock industry.

It is difficult to make rules that work for everyone when everyone comes to the table with a different agenda. For example, those who don't show beef/swine/sheep/goats may not completely understand how the rules effect those who do. Those who look at it strictly from a livestock production view do not understand the views of those representing the show circuit. MOSTLY, IT WOULD BE NICE TO PUT THIS TO REST AND NOT HAVE TO ARGUE ABOUT IT ANYMORE. So, any thoughts, advice, suggestions, or telling me how your county does it WOULD BE SO APPRECIATED!

We live in a small county. Typical buyers at the sale are local businessmen (the tractor parts store, the farm supply store, the local bank, the local grocery store), and businesses in surrounding areas (sale barns in other counties, a lumber supply store), our State Representative and Senator, etc.

Thank you for your help!
 

MCC

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Nov 27, 2010
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484
Location
LAMAR,CO
I don't know how much help this will be to you but maybe you can use part of it.

At our county fair all animals are sold by the head. It makes it so much easier for the buyers who a lot of times have trouble understanding the auctioneer anyway. That way they know right away how much they are spending without having to do the math.

Our steers all go to the packing plant and are sold on the rail grade and yield. Kid gets whatever the carcass is worth.

In addition to that we have a carcass contest. When the steers are tagged in they are auctioned off for this contest. Buyers range from business men to cattlemen to parents. The money off that go into a pool and when the contest is over the winning buyers get half and the kids get the other half. We pay through 5 places with the winners getting the biggest percentage prorated down from there.
 

Jacka

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Dec 30, 2009
Messages
60
At our County Fair every market item is weighed when they unload at the Fairgrounds.  That becomes the official weight.  We then try to get as many bidders of each species of animals as possible.  Normally these bidders are from area sale barns.  What they do is come in and bid a per pound price on say each steer at the Fair.  So you do have a different "floor price" on each animal.  Whoever has the largest bid for a particular species gets all of that species which ends up going through the sale.  When they are weighed each exhibitor draws for sale position.  They then sale in the drawn sale position, except for champions and breed champions sale first.

Once each species is done showing the exhibitor must tell the Superintendent if they intend to sale their animal.  Each exhibitor can sale a total of three species, but may only sale one of each species through the auction.  The auction is for the premium which the buyer pays to the exhibitor, but it is the exhibitors responsibility to collect from the buyer.  If the buyer wishes they may "hold" the item for their own use.  In that case they pay both the premium and floor price to the exhibitor.  Once the auction is over the animal is taken directly to a waiting truck for transportation to the sale barn or processing plant.  It is the responsibility of the processor or sale barn to have trucking available and they pay for that.  If an exhibitor happens to show say two steers they may sale one through the auction and place the other onto the truck at the "floor price."  If the buyer holds an animal it immediately becomes their responsibility to remove the animal from the Fair Grounds.

Typically the floor price will be slightly below market price to allow for the cost of trucking and any shrinkage.

Local financial institutions then collect from the packer or sale barn for a specific species and they then pay the exhibitor the floor price.  So in all cases except for chickens, see below, the exhibitor receives two checks.  One check for the floor price and one for the sale premium.

Through our auction we sale Dairy (gallon of milk), beef, sheep, goats, hogs, poultry and rabbits.  Since we are unable to obtain a "floor" on the poultry the buyer pays what they bid to the exhibitor.  If you sale poultry through the auction the birds are then donated to local food banks.

Our auction trypically will run from around 9:00 am to 7:00 pm.  Buyers are local businessmen either bidding in person or proxy by one of the auctioneers.  In addition we are very lucky to have great support from parents and grand parents.  It is not uncommon for groups of people to pool together to buy a specific animal in say a members final year or if they have a high placing animal.

Each buyer is given a small cardboard plaque which states I Supported the 2014 XXXXXX County 4-H Fair.  In addition the Fair Board runs full page advertisements in our local papers listing all of the buyers.

We went to bidding strictly the premium price several of years ago and it works much better as you are not constantly having to figure out what you are bidding.

Hope this helps!
 

Tallcool1

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Jun 21, 2012
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969
MCC said:
In addition to that we have a carcass contest. When the steers are tagged in they are auctioned off for this contest. Buyers range from business men to cattlemen to parents. The money off that go into a pool and when the contest is over the winning buyers get half and the kids get the other half. We pay through 5 places with the winners getting the biggest percentage prorated down from there.

I think this part of your sale is REALLY COOL!!!

I am going to take this idea DIRECTLY to the fair board at both of the counties we show in!

Thank you for sharing this part of your sale!
 

DLD

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Apr 15, 2007
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Location
sw Oklahoma
I don't see anything wrong with not being able to sell steers over 1450 - as you said, that's a pretty generous number for a top end weight anyway.  I'll bet you have a minimum weight to be eligible for the sale?  And a minimum and maximum weight for other species (at least swine)?  It's really no different.  That said though, an alternative might be to limit the base weight exhibitors are paid on - 1450 or even 1400 aren't unreasonable numbers for that.  That way whoever's buying the floor doesn't get hurt, the exhibitors still get a nice check for their calf, but they aren't encouraged to keep getting them bigger than industry standards.

Our sale is bonus only, so we sell by the dollar, not by the pound.  Since you're getting paid separately for the market value, I think selling your bonus by the dollar would be much simpler.  I can see selling by the pound bringing in more total dollars, though.

If you're selling bonus by the pound as well as base price for the animals,  I can see why you'd be getting lots of big cattle - if floor price and bonus prices are the same across the board, an extra 200# adds up to lots of dollars.

We don't sell anything but market animals in our bonus sale, so the whole idea of selling still exhibits is foreign to me.  Matter of fact, our bonus sale is at our spring stock show, and we only do still exhibits at our fall fair.  Everything just gets placing money at the fair.
 

kanshow

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May 24, 2007
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Kansas
Our county fair sale rules are pretty much the same way.  Our county also has a rule where only one animal can be put thru the sale for the premium but they can sell as many as they want at floor.  I know the top end rule on the beef was put into place in our county because all the steers go to the same place to be slaughtered and there is a carcass contest there. The facility cannot hang over a certain weight carcass.. I'm thinking its like 750..    The hogs have to meet a minimum weight to be floored and go thru the sale.  The real heavy pigs are floored lower than the correct weights..  So that leaves the same problem for our county.. if a kid has a pig under 220 or a steer over 1400, the animal cannot be run thru the premium auction.  What i think might work is to allow all livestock kids to continue to sell one animal thru the premium auction including those over and underweight IF the kid can find someone to floor the animal.  Example:  If a kid has a steer that is weighing 1451 and the grandparents & parents were planning on butchering it anyway, let them put the floor on it and buy it at a fair market price.  At our county, if an animal runs thru the sale, the 4H tags are cut out and the animal become ineligible to show at any future shows.  We also have started a silent auction for the non livestock kids or those with chickens & rabbits to sell one project.  This has gone over pretty good but there are very few 4Hers who put anything in this auction.  The only kids that are really left out of being able to sell something then are those who show breeding animals only.
 

obie105

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Oct 17, 2011
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It depends on where your located but in most counties in the Midwest that I have worked with they are not terminal shows so they are just a premium auction. Most Midwest county fairs are before state fair so to keep them competitive the kids retain ownership. The local sale barn does come through and set a floor so if there are kids that want to sell they can. They receive two checks then one from the salebarn and one from the premium auction. Each exhibitor is only allowed one animal from each market species to get a premium on. I do think a dollar amount is easier to follow than per pound especially for those not as familiar with an auction.
 

5PCC

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Jan 27, 2013
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Northeast Missouri
Thanks for your comments.

Because our sale is on a Friday night, each child is allowed to sale only ONE item. It can be an art hall item (like banana bread or a photo or a woodworking project) or livestock. But if a child showed two market beef and one market swine (for example), they can still only sell one of these animals. Limiting each child to only one item/animal allows for a shorter sale. If a child wants to take their steer back home and show him at the State Fair, then that child has to let the bidders know (before they enter the sale ring) that they "Reserve the Right to Show". The child then has 30 days after the last day of the State Fair to get the animal to the buyer or the sale is void. There is some paperwork that goes along with that.
 

RankeCattleCo

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Southeastern Wisconsin
These sound so complex..

Our county favor is the last week/weekend in July. Our state fair is 2 weeks later. Our county is very competitive at the state fair, and we've had multiple breed champions the last few years.

We have about 80 head of steers go through our auction. There is no floor price. The buyer buys the animal by the pound and then has 3 options- ship to one of 5 local slaughterhouses and they retain the meat, ship to market and receive market price and cut their losses, or take the animal home. The only time an animal is taken home is if it's purchased by a parent/jockey and its a real little guy that is going to be used for a fall major. Our auction is very simple and is sale barn style.

Every check written to exhibitors from the sale has 4% removed to help cover the cost of tricking and the appreciation dinner we do. Again,very simple.

We have a sale handout with the order that includes the exhibitors name, weight, and breed. At the initial weigh in the first night of the fair an exhibitor must designate if the animal will be held for state fair. This is marked with an 'X' in the sale book so buyers are aware. These exhibitors still have 4% taken out, but must arrange trucking post state fair to where the county fair buyer designates. If they are a breed champion at state fair and sell in the Blue Ribbon Auction, all of the money from the county fair sale is voided and returned. This is why all county exhibitors don't receive their livestock checks until after state fair.

Hope this helped.
 

Rustynail

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Utah
What we do, and I think it is similar to your fair.  We have a bid on the floor price.  We call it support.  Feed yards usually take the steers.  Two of the local butchers team up on the pigs.  And I am not sure who takes the lambs.  When we sale people can take an animal as far above support as the want, and just pay the difference between the support price and their bid.  The support buyer gets the animal.  We had the same problem with them not wanting to pay for overly large animals.  What we did is top out the pounds that the base price will pay. On steers the most that is paid for buy the support buyer is 1375.  So if your steer is 1410, support still only pays for 1375.  We have a great group of buyers, so I have never seen a animal go for only support.  Some might say that the support buyer is getting a lot of product for free, but it keeps the base price per pound much higher than if the bit knowing they might have to pay for the 1595 steer that was at our fair this year.  I don't know if I explained this very well.
 

RankeCattleCo

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Southeastern Wisconsin
I'm going to be completely honest when I say that having a maximum weight limit is simply stupid. We finish our Holsteins our at 1500-1700 pounds.. So we just lose 100-300 pounds of product?? That's a lot of money!!
 

Limiman12

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SW. Iowa
But are you used to topping the market with that Holstein 1700 pound steer.....  It is a way to protect all the kids calves from a few big ones in how they set the floor.    I am not sure about not letting them sell at all however. I have seen a lot of young kids, or even older kids get a calf that gains like crazy, not sure they need to be taught to hold a steer off feed in order to show/sell it......  On beef, having floor for each animal is best, but I understand it is not always possible.
 

RankeCattleCo

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Because of their size and rib capacity and length of rear quarter, Holsteins must way around 1500 pounds minimum to be finished. When we send in a steer we usually do get top dollar for them. Around 1550 to 1600 pounds is our ideal weight at 16-18 months with just Corn, corn silage, corn gluten feed pellets, and a small amount of marsh hay.
 

5PCC

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Northeast Missouri
You're right...market-ready is so very different depending on breed and frame. It is a tricky business. I think the idea behind that was to teach the kid the market side of the project, and to cut loses for the sale barn. But, if you consider that 4-H is about doing the best you can with what you have...

We sell our cattle at the sale barn at various times for a variety of reasons...sometimes they may  not be the right size. Maybe that is something that we could have prevented, and maybe not (depending on the circumstances). But there are very few reasons as to why we would be disallowed to actually sell our animal. The difference is, of course, in how much eventually ends up in the bank. If they are too heavy or too light, then obviously we are eating hamburger instead of steak that night!
 

pweaver

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Our County Fair Livestock Auction:
We sell only livestock, no exhibit hall projects, no funds generated for the exhibit hall projects.  Don't even want to think about that nightmare.  It's bad enough when a pen of rabbits or chickens sell for $300 - $500 (these are not the Grands or Reserves) when the animals were acquired in March or April and fed cheaply for 2 - 3 months vs. a steer that cost $750++++, fed $20.00/cwt. feed for 9 months and gets the same $300 - $500 over whatever the market is at fair time.
A local sale barn puts a pound price on each animal (except goats, and they are per head).  It might be the same price per pound per animal or they may discount the heavier animals.  Sale barn rep gives fair market prices but they also allow for shrink and a little wiggle room.  The price is multiplied by the weight at weigh in upon arrival at the fair.  That total market price is printed in the sale catalog for the buyers'.  Animals are auctioned for the premium amount.  If buyer wants animal for their use, they add premium to market and that is what they pay.  If not, they pay premium and sale barn pays market.  Sale barn and some of the livestock parents transport all animals to their final destinations, sale barn or locker plants.
 
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