New genetic defect in Angus ?

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aj

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I had a guy try and sell me a horned bull one time......I wanted a polled bull.......he replied that the bull was horned but "He did have polled bllood in him". I wonder how many registered cattle breeders understand the simple things like that. I've heard auctioneers bungle up the homozygous-hetererzygous polled information. They have not a clue.
 

kfacres

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1. Linebreeding is not the ONLY way to achieve optimum uniformity- you can breed like to like ( in other words there are animals that are very similar in phenotype and perform similar without being related), I'll give you that you can breed like to like... but tell me honestly, how often does that yield something like the parents?  Very few, IMO-- unless both parents come from genetic lines which have BEEN LINEBRED for similar traits. Seriously, how many great physically heifers, turn into flopped cows?

2. Depends what endpoint is desired?  Not really-- you establish a line of animals that are where you want them, and prosper forward.  It doesn't matter if you're wanting show heifers, commercial cattle, or elephants

3.Yes linebreeding helps bring up genetic faults but if you weren't linebreeding the chances of you getting these hidden faults would be very low. getting these faults, or exposing these faults?  Look at TH- the originator of it, was born what 30 years prior to people knowing about it?  It was a massive problem that nobody knew about-- if no one linebred-- that problem would still be a time bomb.
4. Linebreeding has it's place, some do it very well, but IMO it is not something for a breed to do with the majority of it's numbers.  [/b] Skilled people, who use their brains are needed to linebreed.  The most important part of line breeding, is understanding what you have for a foundation.  Like AJ said, if you have junk, you don’t want to linebreed around it.  You need to know of potential problems for many generations back (usually by trial/ error, or talking to the old timers).  [/b]

5.  Don't put all of your eggs in one basket. ;D  [/b] Actually I prefer to have all of mine in one basket- my sheep operation thrives on consistency.  If they’re not consistent, they’re not worth a nickel- consistent good, consistent bad- doesn’t matter.. The bad gets culled obviously.  Personally, I’d rather make 19 good ones, and one sale barner, than 1 great one and 19 sale barners (opposite of most people shooting for the jackpot) [/b]

6.  Yes there is defects in unrelated matings.  [/b] The defects are present, but most defects are mutations that stem from one particular animal- and if you don’t linebreed, those defects don’t work together.  The only defect I can think of off the top of my head that will not follow this thought, is the Improver and Outcast TH.  [/b]

7.  Have a ?, what is the point of linebreeding, before I get a very simple answer think about it.  Is there a possibility to get a perfect animal that will transmit perfection to his or her offspring without defects, etc., consistently.  How many linebred programs start out with breeding around a line that they like and then 10 generations down the road, their program looks nothing like that first ideal animal?
[/b] The point of my linebreeding in the sheep flock is to establish a genetic line that is predictable, prepotent, and outcross to the rest of the breed.  By doing this, I am essentially creating my own breed, within the breed—with hopes that very few other producers have anything genetically similar.  By doing this, those potential and customers who purchase from us will experience a hybrid vigor effect—basically like crossbreeding to improve upon whatever it is they are wanting to improve.  I do this to make my stuff look superior to the playing field.  This will work based off the principles of homozygous genes, and the fact that in resulting offspring will be hetero..  again, the same as crossbreeding…  [/b]

8.  These aren't necessarily questions that I have, but I'm sure alot of people on here do have.

9.  Jody, AJ this will keep you busy answering for a couple minutes ( the Canadians need more time to get more pics! ;D) p.s. I am unrelated to them.... I think. ;)
[/b] I appreciate it. [/b]
[/quote]
I can go on and on about linebreeding, and my theories on it… but plain and simple.. IT”S lunch time.
 

r.n.reed

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I think the biggest problem is most breeders are linebreeding and don't know it.The pedigree doesn't stop at 3 generations. Cattle from a planned  multigenerational linebreeding program are a safer bet on being more free of defects and are more apt to produce their kind and offer more hybrid vigor as well to the commercial breeder.Of course this is all a mute point if the cattle are not relevant or functional.
 

aj

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Cattle that are linebred express less hybrid vigor and thus may not have a sha-bang wow growth or look to them in the showring. But their calves will really express  the hybrid affect when used on a unrelated line or a different breed.
 

kfacres

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r.n.reed said:
I think the biggest problem is most breeders are linebreeding and don't know it.The pedigree doesn't stop at 3 generations. Cattle from a planned  multigenerational linebreeding program are a safer bet on being more free of defects and are more apt to produce their kind and offer more hybrid vigor as well to the commercial breeder.Of course this is all a mute point if the cattle are not relevant or functional.
RN...  I actually has this as a last paragraph.. but it was on the second page as I typed my response in word.. It did not copy over..  The thing is people want to avoid linebreeding-- and actually breeds are very small gene pool... if you (anyone, not RN) don't believe this-- just get online and look up a pedigree, trace it back far enough and you'll be suprised.  Bulls from the olden times, will be in there 10 times or more.. 

A few years ago, I kept my best ram lamb to use on a certain group of ewes.  On a 3 generation pedigree there was not a single duplication of an ancestor.. but once you pulled up the 6 generation pedigree- one particular ram was represented 10-12 times. 
 

justintime

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aj said:
Cattle that are linebred express less hybrid vigor and thus may not have a sha-bang wow growth or look to them in the showring. But their calves will really express  the hybrid affect when used on a unrelated line or a different breed.

I would suggest that there is a pile of linebred cattle showing especially in US shows. Many have 3 or 4 crosses of Trump in them.  I'm not opposed to linebreeding if the people doing it understand what they are doing. I think there is some merit to going back and adding the genetics of a great female again in a breeding program. Stacking one animal in a pedigree for many generations can create some problems though. You may get a great one but you may also get some throw aways. I guess those who chase the show ring are willing to gamble with this, but in many cases, they are really not helping the breed ( but then many who chase ribbons really could care less about the future of the breed!)

I always find it interesting that we hear a lot of people say that we need some fresh new genetics, but when push comes to shove, they are afraid to step out and try some. It seems there are too many followers and not enough true breeders out there.
A bit off topic, but I have received several calls from people wanting sexed semen from some sires. Personally, I don't think sexed semen does much when you consider the long term future of any breed. If any breed is going to continue tlo develop good genetics for the future, it needs to be developing good cattle of both sexes. I fully understand why so many want to used sexed heifer semen, but I'm not convinced it is the total answer.
Back to the original topic, I heard about this new defect in Angus a few months ago, and I was told that it is only one of 4 or 5 new defects that has appeared in the past couple years in the Angus breed. Considering the massive gene pool this breed has, I don't think it should come as any surprise that new defects are showing up. Defects are an unfortunate part of breeding livestock, and how the breed handles them determines the affect they will have in the overall population.
 

CAB

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It'll be interesting to see the results of the testing for this potential defect, but as far as the picture posted up possibly representing the defect, I think that most of the older members here on the planet have seen very similar pictures of or even live individuals that are actually a pair of conjoined twins calves in which one of the calves survived and along the way absorbed the other calf which ended up expressing itself as a 5 legged calf or a 2 headed calf or on & on.
 

nate53

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aj said:
Cattle that are linebred express less hybrid vigor and thus may not have a sha-bang wow growth or look to them in the showring. But their calves will really express  the hybrid affect when used on a unrelated line or a different breed.
I've noticed that!  A Sneed bull I bought has some really impressive calves out of some Amerifax cows.  The calves are thicker, growthier, more muscle than daddy or mommy by quite abit.  

Cut the BS- the only way the like to like works (consistently) is if you stack like to like pedigrees, so basically linebreed a certain type of cattle that are actually unrelated.

R.N. REED- it is very interesting how many cattle go back to a certain sire or a certain cow multiple times on back in the pedigree!
 

kfacres

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nate53 said:
Cut the BS- the only way the like to like works (consistently) is if you stack like to like pedigrees, so basically linebreed a certain type of cattle that are actually unrelated.


IMO-- unless both parents come from genetic lines which have BEEN LINEBRED for similar traits
Doesn't that mean the same thing? But in different words?
 

aj

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I completely disagree with JIT on some of this stuff. First of all when I hear some one talk about a cow family I get sick to my stomach. Most of the time this means a show heifer. You are breeding strictly for visual appraisal. It has nothing to do with the cows offsprings results. It doesn't mean the cow has raised 3 herd sires. I doesn't mean she raised 13 calves on a wind swept plains in Wyoming. |It means she's a pretty cow. It means she won a beauty contest. It means she is a certain shape. It means she gets embryo transplanted without having to reproduce out in the real world. Its the kinda cow you go show a buddy from Ireland or somewhere...in a golf cart while sipping wine spritzers. It doesn't matter that she hasn't raised a calf in 3 years or that she gets cooked corn 3 times aday. Heterosis is not a factor in the show ring or in visual appraisal. Heterosis is defined in pounds weaned or pounds weaned per cow exposed or growth in the feedlot. The biggest factor right now is an advantage to cow longevity do to heterosis in some reasearch cow herds. Cut the cow family horsecrap out. A cow family is for beauty contests. A cow family is a sales gimmick. imo But boy if you wanna go out and look at a purty cow in the pasture stick to the cow family stuff. Usually the cow that looks like hell in a commercial herd has raised 10 calves on limited resources and has actually produced something.
 

DL

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CAB said:
It'll be interesting to see the results of the testing for this potential defect, but as far as the picture posted up possibly representing the defect, I think that most of the older members here on the planet have seen very similar pictures of or even live individuals that are actually a pair of conjoined twins calves in which one of the calves survived and along the way absorbed the other calf which ended up expressing itself as a 5 legged calf or a 2 headed calf or on & on.


CAB - this defect is not the same as extra limbs resulting from co joined twins - the anatomy is different and there appear to be a line of cattle affected - just like the potential genetic defect in shorthorn cattle we need samples and pictures and pedigrees
 

knabe

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aj said:
If you have a lot of genetic defect trash in your cattle you won't want to linebreed. There are still people out there that think linebreeding causes genetic defects. It doesn't. It exposes genetic defects.Some people have a learning disability on that point.

wrong.  this is the exact best reason to linebreed.
 

Freddy

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SOME VERY GOOD COMMENTS THROUGH THIS DISCUSSION ,I definitely agree with KNABE ,linebreeding would find the defects ,but how are  you going to know what to breed to next ,or to start with ....In the Angus BREED HAS BEEN SPICED UP by  every breed there is esecially Holstein ..
Our system of true relability in these pedigrees is very flawed and our breed associations have went right along with it .....This has bothered me for some time ,have caught hell about it ,finally decided to quit worrying about it and work with what I have to work with ....


THE old saying "IF you can't whip'em ,join'em -------
 

twistedhshowstock

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Linebreeding most definately does increase the odds for genetic defects to present themselves, because it increases the odds that offspring will carry 2 copies of a recessive gene.  I think we get carried away calling things genetic deffects sometimes.  All birth defects are mutations, just like genetic deffects are mutations in genes.  But all birth defects are not genetic, sometimes they are due to environment, nutrition, etc or like has already been mentioned, we know that sometimes extra limbs are associated with an embryo that starts to split and for some reason never finishes splitting, though we often see more than just the extra limb in these cases when we exam them closely.  I am not tryng to say that we shouldnt try to pin point genetic deffects, and I think this particular case definately calls for attention because of the drastic increase in it happening we need to find out what is causing it.  But at the same time I sometimes feel like everytime something comes out deformed people start screaming genetic defect when it isnt always true.
What caught my eye here was that it said this particular herd was linebreeding for marbling and growth qualities.  So I wonder how long before people are out looking for 5 legged cattle to get better marbling, just like they are looking for TH and PHA calves for better hair, lol.  People also need to realise that in most instances, 1 gene affects 1 physical trait.  This is what gets me about TH and PHA, sure you can draw a connection that most TH carriers have awesome hair, but being a TH carrier is not what makes them good haired. The deffective gene that causes TH has absolutely no  affect on hair.  It just happened to be a coincidence that several of the cattle that carried the deffective gene also carried a gene for great hair.   Which is why I am a firm believer that we can breed clean cattle that are just as good as carrier cattle, the gene is not linked, its a coincidence that the cattle happen to carry both, loosing one doesnt necessarily mean losing the other. And I think we are starting to see that lately, there are a lot of really good, clean cattle coming on.    
Lol for some reason my mind  made that connection and I didnt want people running out looking for 5 legged cattle thinking their meat was gonna be better...lol
 

twistedhshowstock

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knabe said:
aj said:
If you have a lot of genetic defect trash in your cattle you won't want to linebreed. There are still people out there that think linebreeding causes genetic defects. It doesn't. It exposes genetic defects.Some people have a learning disability on that point.

wrong.  this is the exact best reason to linebreed.

I agree with knabe here...the way I see it, yes linebreeding increases chances of genetic deffects or faults expressing themselves...but it also tends to give you a really good chance of getting the good without the bad.
 

justintime

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aj said:
I completely disagree with JIT on some of this stuff. First of all when I hear some one talk about a cow family I get sick to my stomach. Most of the time this means a show heifer. You are breeding strictly for visual appraisal. It has nothing to do with the cows offsprings results. It doesn't mean the cow has raised 3 herd sires. I doesn't mean she raised 13 calves on a wind swept plains in Wyoming. |It means she's a pretty cow. It means she won a beauty contest. It means she is a certain shape. It means she gets embryo transplanted without having to reproduce out in the real world. Its the kinda cow you go show a buddy from Ireland or somewhere...in a golf cart while sipping wine spritzers. It doesn't matter that she hasn't raised a calf in 3 years or that she gets cooked corn 3 times aday. Heterosis is not a factor in the show ring or in visual appraisal. Heterosis is defined in pounds weaned or pounds weaned per cow exposed or growth in the feedlot. The biggest factor right now is an advantage to cow longevity do to heterosis in some reasearch cow herds. Cut the cow family horsecrap out. A cow family is for beauty contests. A cow family is a sales gimmick. imo But boy if you wanna go out and look at a purty cow in the pasture stick to the cow family stuff. Usually the cow that looks like hell in a commercial herd has raised 10 calves on limited resources and has actually produced something.

Well aj, you have done it again!  You are a master at just reading what you want to read in anyone's post. Please show me where I even mentioned a cow family in my last post? I said that linebreeding to one of your best producing cows can be a good thing and hopefully alllow you to produce more females that are similar to her. I never said one thing about this cow being from any particular cow family. I could care less what cow family she is from.
I do agree with you that sire groups are talked about much more in the commerical and feed lot parts of this business, but that is only because a sire can produce so many more progeny than a female can. I do think there is a place for cow families in the production of good breeding stock, and I would say that there are lots of breeders of purebred stock that feel that certain cow lines have proven themselves to be more consistent producers over many generations. That does not mean that every female from a particular cow family is a good producer, as you can get a dud from any line. I do think that there is a better chance of getting a good producing female if she comes from a time proven cow family, but that said, it is never 100% certain you will.   I do think that there are still lots of commercial bull buyers who try to buy bulls from certain cow lines. I have recently had two inquiries from commercial producers who have seen our Elsie's Jade cow, and they have asked if we have any sons of her for sale this year. I would also agree that you often have a cow that looks like hell that does a great job producing for you, but the fact remains that much of this business ( whether it be purebred or commercial) has a visual component to it. I'm not saying this is right, but it remains a fact that people like to spend their hard earned dollars on something that is pleasing to their eyes. I have seen lots of good performance cattle, in every breed, that do not sell or sell for low diollars, simply because they have not been presentled properly.

I don't think ranchers in your country are any different than ranchers in my country or anywhere else. They take great pride in their cattle, and they usually will pay extra for what they conceive is quality ( preceived or real). I doubt if this will ever change.
 

knabe

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aj said:
Usually the cow that looks like hell in a commercial herd has raised 10 calves on limited resources and has actually produced something.

you just defeated your argument.
 

sue

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nate53 said:
aj said:
Cattle that are linebred express less hybrid vigor and thus may not have a sha-bang wow growth or look to them in the showring. But their calves will really express  the hybrid affect when used on a unrelated line or a different breed.
I've noticed that!  A Sneed bull I bought has some really impressive calves out of some Amerifax cows.  The calves are thicker, growthier, more muscle than daddy or mommy by quite abit.  

Cut the BS- the only way the like to like works (consistently) is if you stack like to like pedigrees, so basically linebreed a certain type of cattle that are actually unrelated.

R.N. REED- it is very interesting how many cattle go back to a certain sire or a certain cow multiple times on back in the pedigree!
I totally agree with this group of paragraphs. I also think breeding likes to likes is a great way to achieve uniformity. ... I just love to see a herd sire "stamp a set of calves." Ultimately we sell in uniformity... by the pot load.
 

justintime

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I find it interesting that when jaimiediamond posts pictures of females here on SP, aj seems to always ask questions about the best looking ones. He then goes on to tell us in a later post that visual beauty is not ( or maybe he means should not) ever be a factor in how we select cattle. I'm quite sure aj is no different than anyone else, in that he likes cattle that he likes the appearance of. It is even better when the animal has numbers to go along with the visual appearance. I sell a number of bulls each year to buyers who never see the bull before it arrives at his yard or pasture. In every case ( at least so far) these buyers always ask for pictures of the bull and often ask for pictures of the sire and dam. Visual appearance is, and always will be a part of any success in this business  whether you are a commercial or seedstock producer.

A big part of this business is based on lowest cost production of beef, but this is not the only part of it. I have a good friend who runs a good outfit, and I have oftentimes told him that he keeps his cows in too good condition. He always comments that I may be right, but he has never seen a potential buyer drive out of his yard because his cows are too fat.... but he knows of lots of places where potential buyers have driven out of yards because the cows are too thin. There is some truth in his statement, and his success speaks for itself. He also says that  he gets great pleasure looking at his cattle when he is feeding and working with them.If he can't enjoy his work with his cattle , he doesn't want to keep them. This is just one man's opinion but this is why he does what he does. Others, like aj, seem to only concern themselves with low cost maintenance of their herds. Nothing wrong with that as well. My friend estimates that he gets back $200 firom every $20 of extra feed he puts into his cows from selling their offspring. Those are his numbers and I am not going to argue them, as he keeps some of the best records I have ever seen. He says the return on investment for feeding his cows to keep them in good condition is higher than any crop input he puts into his grain operation. There is a place in this business for both methods of production. Neither is totally right... neither is totally wrong. As I have said many times before, most things in life are best in optimum amounts
 

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