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Offline knabe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2016, 08:38:59 AM »
What you just stated is opinion.


It's not clear what is needed.
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Offline librarian

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2016, 09:52:02 AM »
Of course. I'll never have it figured out, just keep trying to think for myself. Sorry if I lapsed into advising others how to think. In fact, I'm weary of the entire Breed Myth- it's all overburden as the geologists would say.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 10:00:52 AM by librarian »
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Offline knabe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2016, 10:39:27 AM »
How to think is how to test what is measurable with a minimum of bias.

Cattle breeding suffers from an excess of anecdotal information and not enough genetic turnover to make progress with minor effects.

How to test is what is measurable.

Not much is measurable. That's why cattle breeding is mostly based on emotion.


The only reasons for a breed is to bring people together who interested in a small set of phenotypic markers and somewhat accurate pedigree history. There is no other need for a "breed"
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 10:41:11 AM by knabe »
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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2016, 09:28:44 PM »
I disagree. I believe there are visual indicators for all the traits l mentioned and more... But differences of opinion at what challenges us to rethink our assumptions. If I was to fault Robert based on this photo, it would be on his tendency to show patchiness of fat. There is nothing wrong with deriving phenotype from genotype based on knowledge of the ancestors strengths and weaknesses. This builds within genotype strength that can be passed on predictably. Length of fore-rib and spring of rib indicate large organs, especially lungs and heart to pump blood thru the digestive system. Longevity comes from nutrition and the capacity to digest large amounts of forage improves fecundity in cows.
If one uses or promotes a slab sided, pinch gutted, shallow chested, steer headed, twisted nut bull on his IMF and REA and makes a virtue of his lack of eye appeal- then that bull is only useful as the terminal injector of confinement feeding end product premium traits that employ heterosis for vigor. This does make money- no argument there.
However, breed building bulls need the vigor that shows itself in powerfully built complete animals that leave herd building daughters. The Canadians have been doing the heavy lifting for Shorthorns for over a century and if they hadn't stuck to what works instead of what sells, where would we go to salvage functionality? Eventually what works rolls around the learning curve of new breeders and becomes what sells. We are in a moment of alignment right now.
I would agree to meet in the middle on this. I think your statement that "there is nothing wrong with deriving phenotype from genotype" is very good and I agree with that. What happens though is when we start talking about the different mature weights we get in to way different scenarios. You can't take a 2500 lb. bull and put him on a 1,000 acre range in the sandhills and make him walk miles for water. Or make 1700 lb. cows do that either. You can try, but from my experience I can tell you what you will get. I am not in the sandhills or on a range but I pressure my cattle and they only eat grass and hay year round. I agree about the Canadian genetics to a point. I have used some that are really bad and some that are really good. Same with about anywhere.
Knabe, I agree with you that there isn't enough genetic turnover in the Shorthorn breed. We haven't had accurate EPD's up until recently and a system worth messing with up until recently. Now we have a really nice online system that breeders can enter tons of performance data that will allow us to get our accuracies up quickly. A breed does need to have an identity when it comes to phenotype and function and what role it will play. Our breed has multiple personality disorder...

Offline knabe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2016, 07:56:14 AM »

 Bonanza has pretty much no ribeye and Robbie may have a bit more but miniscule when looked at per 100 lbs. IMF is unknown because you just can't see it. Capacity and girth doesn't equal longevity or fertility or rib eye. Why, in the Shorthorn breed, do we insist on breeding our cattle based on eye appeal and appearance?

Yup. Can't see efficient either. What's ribeye on buster?
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Offline justintime

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2016, 09:31:10 AM »
Actually I wouldn't use ultimate based on the narrow base of his udders and complete lack of circumference around his front rib. 
In fact, I would eliminate him.

Well...we haven't seen his 3rd dimension, which is a consideration.
But, its more interesting to look at the bottom side of 12P. Almost makes me wish it was winter-to sit by the fire and voyage thru the individuals.
Lets talk about HC Trendsetter. Who is Blue Rock Lucky Boy? Are all those great old herd names Canadian?
To me, this is the stuff that gives our breed texture and individuality as well as excellence. I see the breed being boiled down to a few high profile bloodlines instead of al the richness of these pedigrees. But I guess that's the way of the world.

Librarian... you have certainly made me dig back into my memory bank! 

First of all, HC Trendsetter 26K was one of the first sons of Ready Go we ever sold. He was born in March, 1978 and we decided to put two weaned sons of Ready Go in our production sale that fall. Trendsetter was the high selling bull in that sale at $3000, which was pretty good money in 1978. He sold to Jim Mouser, Ramsholt Farms, in Southern Alberta.
His dam was a cow named Dreymaur Mona A, and she was a dual purpose Shorthorn cow I purchased in Ontario, from Maurice Knott's herd.
I was fresh out of college, trying to expand my parents herd, and I had mentioned to Bert Pepper, who was the Secretary Manager of the Canadian Shorthorn Association, that I would like to buy a couple good dual purpose cows to add to our herd. One day Bert phoned me and told me that he had just heard that a very good herd of dual purpose cows was for sale. He said I should fly down to Ontario, and he would show me this herd. Two days later, I got on a plane and went to Ontario.( It's funny some of the stuff you remember, but my return plane ticket on Air Canada to Toronto from Regina was $112.00) The next morning we went to see the herd that was for sale, and found out that the owner had sold the entire herd to another person, the night before. This set of cows were absolutely amazing, and I had never seen Shorthorn cows like this before. They were bigger framed, thicker topped and better uddered than any Shorthorns I had ever seen before. I was pretty deflated when I found out that I could not buy any of these cows.
Seeing I was already down there, Bert offered to take me to some other herds. Each barn I walked into, left me in total amazement. Every herd I saw had some of the best cows I had ever seen. I remember phoning my dad after the first day of touring, and I told him about the cows I was seeing. I told him that I could buys some of these cows at pretty reasonable money. Dad told me that if I could buy them reasonably, that I should try to get some, as we were wanting to expand our herd anyways.
When we arrived at Dreymaur Farms, I had already purchased a few cows from other breeders. Maurice Knott was in his barn and had just sorted off 10 cows that he was sending to the kill plant. The truck was already on it's way to haul them to the kill plant. I looked at each of these cows and I was totally impressed with each of them. I asked him why he was selling them, and he said that they were the bottom end of his producing cows and he was trying to improve his milk records. Bert Pepper had told me that if I wanted good cows for a beef herd, that I should buy cows that had about 8000 lbs or less milk production. Each of these 10 cows were right around the 8000 lbs milk production so I asked him what he would sell any of them for? He said he would sell them for $250.00 each as that was all he would get for them from the packing plant. I bought all 10 of these cows and Dreymaur Mona A was included in this group. She was a beautiful cow with a perfect udder and she was apple smooth. The truck arrived to take these cows to market, about 15 minutes after I bought them, and if I had been even an hour later getting there, I would have not even seen them. I ended up buying 31 cows on that trip. The 10 Dreymaur cows were the cheapest ones I got and I paid $1000 for a couple cows in the Seagrave herd, including a cow named Seagrave Royal Sylvia, who was a full sister to Seagrave Royal Sylvia 2nd that was the highest classified Excellent cow in the breed. This cow had been Grand Champion female at the Royal Winter Fair each of the past 3 years. Most of the cows I purchased were in the $300-$400 range. About half these cows acclimatized very quickly to Western Canadian conditions. A few never did and were gone pretty quickly. There were some that were about as tough as anything I ever owned. I doubt if you could have killed a couple of them with an axe. Two of this group produced here for many years. One had her last calf at 20 years of age and then came in open. Another was here until she was here until she was 18.
Blue Rock Lucky Boy must have been a pretty good bull, as his name appeared in the pedigrees of some of the best dual purpose cows I saw on that trip. The Blue Rock herd was in eastern Ontario, and I never visited it, but I heard lots about the great cows they had.
These 31 cows pretty well filled a cattle liner and some of the cows I purchased were heavy in calf so I was concerned about them making the trip. When they arrived here after the 1500 mile trip, two of the cows had baby calves that were born on the truck. They were healthy and had nursed so all was good. I remember paying the trucking company $1400 for the trip, so I got these cows home for approximately $45.00 per cow. Gasoline must have been cheaper in those days... haha!
HC Trendsetter 26K bred very well at Ramsholt Farms, and when they dispersed, many of the high selling animals were either daughters or grand daughters of him. He is one bull that I have oftentimes wished I could find some semen from.
I don't think there are any of these type of females left in the dual purpose branch of the breed. This was pretty well the end of that era, as they had to push milk production to compete in the dairy industry. Today, the remaining herds have very high milk production and the cows resemble other dairy breeds.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 11:09:50 AM by justintime »
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2016, 11:30:35 AM »
I personally feel the bull is way too big for my operation. Don't get me wrong, I love his phenotypic makeup but give me a bull like that about 500-600 lbs. lighter in a Purebred Shorthorn.

I think you're overlooking the significance environment/nutrition plays in determining mature size.  You and I could use the exact same genetics and I guarantee you your cattle, in the same bcs, would be at least a full frame score and easily another hundred plus pounds heavier at maturity.  You could even take those same genetics another 8-10 hours south of me and there'd be a drop off of another frame score and another hundred pounds at maturity- with the same genetics.  You made the comment about this Robert bull not holding up in the sandhills--- I think the point is moot: The bull would have never even got close to the size he is now if raised in that environment.  Not even close.  I think the flipside of this is why many question the growth of some of the genetics you're using.  If those genetics are weaning low 5 weights in the salad bowl Midwest,, what kind of performance are they going to have grazing dry pastures in Texas?Certainly less. 

The bonanza line has proven itself from Canada to California to Texas and many places in between.  This bull here, Robert, is the best Bonanza son I've seen by far-- the 130k influence looks to have worked exceptionally well by bringing a little more retail product to a line that's traditionally known to be more flatter made. 

JTM

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2016, 03:33:53 PM »
I personally feel the bull is way too big for my operation. Don't get me wrong, I love his phenotypic makeup but give me a bull like that about 500-600 lbs. lighter in a Purebred Shorthorn.

I think you're overlooking the significance environment/nutrition plays in determining mature size.  You and I could use the exact same genetics and I guarantee you your cattle, in the same bcs, would be at least a full frame score and easily another hundred plus pounds heavier at maturity.  You could even take those same genetics another 8-10 hours south of me and there'd be a drop off of another frame score and another hundred pounds at maturity- with the same genetics.  You made the comment about this Robert bull not holding up in the sandhills--- I think the point is moot: The bull would have never even got close to the size he is now if raised in that environment.  Not even close.  I think the flipside of this is why many question the growth of some of the genetics you're using.  If those genetics are weaning low 5 weights in the salad bowl Midwest,, what kind of performance are they going to have grazing dry pastures in Texas?Certainly less. 

The bonanza line has proven itself from Canada to California to Texas and many places in between.  This bull here, Robert, is the best Bonanza son I've seen by far-- the 130k influence looks to have worked exceptionally well by bringing a little more retail product to a line that's traditionally known to be more flatter made.
I agree with you that environment plays a role in the size of the animal but there are also genetic tendencies bred into these cattle that play more of a role. Where you got that my cattle wean low 500 weights and people think they have low growth I have no idea. People assume but they haven't used the genetics. A&T Renegade has been used on heifers a lot and his weaning weights are averaging 530. Use him on cows and get 600, then the steers will wean and grow quickly on grain and fatten out at 1250 lbs. They stop growing upwards and start getting finished, that's what I want my cattle to do. I don't want high mature weight cattle that keep getting bigger and bigger. High carcass weight cattle take high inputs, a lot of grain and a lot of time to get them finished. They are harder to get choice and if they lack ribeye then you have another problem. If you think you can buy just any genetics and create a melting pot and conform them quickly to your environment you may be in for a surprise. I do believe there is an optimum cow that can perform at optimum levels in all environments though. You may have to tweak her here and there with some different breeds depending on hot or cold but you know where I'm getting at.

Offline coyote

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2016, 12:05:06 PM »
Here are a couple pictures of 35U daughters. They are out of Red Angus cows .They are my neighbors cows, they are very docile just like he is. The neighbor used 35U on heifers and had no problem calving.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:20:47 PM by coyote »
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Offline coyote

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2016, 12:08:00 PM »
Muridale Robert 35U
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2016, 02:49:57 PM »
Those two "Durham Reds"? are very impressive-I don't see a hole in them, I can"t for the life of me figure why this cross hasn't become more prevalent-they are a cut above many of the Shorthorn females I see in photos. O0

Offline knabe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2016, 10:05:22 PM »
they look like red amerifax with a little less milk
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Offline mbigelow

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2016, 08:56:13 AM »
I think this bull will be better than his sire. He appears to have more muscle.  I really like the udders on those daughters of his.  If you get him collected this fall let me know I think I will be breeding a few cows to him.

Offline librarian

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2016, 10:21:37 AM »
Not that this would happen... But we could do a collective experiment using this bull in every commercially oriented Shorthorn influenced herd, then compare performance across environments, management scenarios and maternal breed.
Then do the same with those daughters, after sorting, using another bull to tweak things whatever direction and on and on. Not sure how related the bulls should be.  In 5-7 generations we would have an actual population with genetic identity.  If pan-conformity is the goal.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 03:11:44 PM by librarian »
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Offline huntaway

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2016, 03:19:33 PM »
No that this would happen... But we could do a collective experiment using this bull in every commercially oriented Shorthorn influenced herd, then compare performance across environments, management scenarios and maternal breed.
Then do the same with those daughters, after sorting, using another bull to tweak things whatever direction and on and on. Not sure how related they should be.  In 5-7 generations we would have an actual population with genetic identity.  If pan-conformity is the goal.


A number of sheep breeders have used this approach here for many years where from within the group they select a small number of sires that will be used over all the studs to improve linkages and improve the accuracy of any data collected. http://www.wrig.co.nz/

 

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