Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Steer Planet Chat => The Big Show => Topic started by: coyote on May 29, 2016, 11:39:29 PM

Title: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on May 29, 2016, 11:39:29 PM
Bought this bull back to use in our herd.
Muridale Robert 35U
Sire: Saskvalley Bonanza 219M
Dam:Muridale Robby 12P (maternal sister to Muridale Buster 14K)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on May 29, 2016, 11:52:08 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: 3 Eagles shorthorns on May 30, 2016, 10:59:31 AM
Awesome!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on May 30, 2016, 12:15:35 PM
Looks good! 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on May 30, 2016, 01:12:58 PM
Magnificent! Got a weight on him?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on May 30, 2016, 01:23:41 PM
I would guess him at 2500 pounds. He is a very easy keeping Bull , he only had hay since he was a yearling. His daughters are the same.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: wiseguy on May 30, 2016, 01:34:15 PM
Scot what frame score would you call him? Excellent bull.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on May 30, 2016, 01:34:54 PM
I can't fault him at all. coyote, you seem to have perfected a good recipe for producing top bulls! <beer>
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on May 30, 2016, 01:36:48 PM
Quote
Scot what frame score would you call him? Excellent bull.
I haven't measured him but would guess around 5.5 frame.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on May 30, 2016, 02:00:14 PM
2500lbs on a 5.5 frame, it can't get better!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: wiseguy on May 30, 2016, 02:48:42 PM
I agree his frame and weight are close to ideal for me. What I like most about him is his front 1/3. His head, jaw, and chest are perfect as far as I'm concerned in regard to masculinity. His front 1/3 tells the story for his back 2/3. We need more Shorthorn Bulls that look like this, and less that look like...... Well we all know..........
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: E6 Durhams on May 31, 2016, 09:58:06 AM
I'd buy semen if it comes available.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on May 31, 2016, 06:13:19 PM
A very interest bull.
Would to be great get semen him!
Congrats for new bull, will made a great job!
 (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on May 31, 2016, 10:28:48 PM
We are planning on drawing semen on him this fall.
This is Muridale Robby 12P , the dam of him. She is a maternal sister to Muridale Buster 14K.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on May 31, 2016, 11:24:43 PM
get a half sib the other way and mate them.

dang, you are almost there.

you probably already do.

robby seems to have the best udder.

looking at the cows, i would say stay on the bottom side of her which you did my buying him back but added bonanza.

i think you are almost done.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on May 31, 2016, 11:37:19 PM
maybe throw in alta cedar signature 80m


http://www.altacedar.com/uploads/3/1/0/6/3106130/alta-cedar-semen-catalogue-web.pdf (http://www.altacedar.com/uploads/3/1/0/6/3106130/alta-cedar-semen-catalogue-web.pdf)


you probably have some of that though too.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Ditmars on June 01, 2016, 11:35:54 AM
Really good looking bull! Nice to see some longevity in the mix! Have any pictures of daughters of in production?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR on June 02, 2016, 07:13:13 PM
We are planning on drawing semen on him this fall.
This is Muridale Robby 12P , the dam of him. She is a maternal sister to Muridale Buster 14K.


Draw it on an international company that can ship semen to Brasil!
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 02, 2016, 08:07:26 PM
What a great animal!
Looking at his dam, one can see she never misses a beat. The Milking Shorthorn% might help with that? Here's a photo of her sire.
If I could, I would use this bull on the daughters of the bull Paintvalley has, or had- Balmoral Oaks Eagle 9X- a Bonanza grandson..
http://www.paintvalleyfarms.com/animals/our-bulls/balmoral-oaks-eagle-9x (http://www.paintvalleyfarms.com/animals/our-bulls/balmoral-oaks-eagle-9x)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 02, 2016, 09:31:09 PM
Actually I wouldn't use ultimate based on the narrow base of his udders and complete lack of circumference around his front rib. 


In fact, I would eliminate him.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 03, 2016, 08:26:07 AM
Actually I wouldn't use ultimate based on the narrow base of his udders and complete lack of circumference around his front rib. 
In fact, I would eliminate him.

Well...we haven't seen his 3rd dimension, which is a consideration.
But, its more interesting to look at the bottom side of 12P. Almost makes me wish it was winter-to sit by the fire and voyage thru the individuals.
Lets talk about HC Trendsetter. Who is Blue Rock Lucky Boy? Are all those great old herd names Canadian?
To me, this is the stuff that gives our breed texture and individuality as well as excellence. I see the breed being boiled down to a few high profile bloodlines instead of al the richness of these pedigrees. But I guess that's the way of the world.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 03, 2016, 11:09:01 AM
But, its more interesting to look at the bottom side of 12P.


the bottom side is probably the key as this cow has a different udder than the other half sibs on their web page of of ultimate and with his lack of girth, i wouldn't use him.  i would go the direction they are already going. basically, they have figured it out. so has x-bar.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 03, 2016, 11:47:30 AM
Agreed. Going thru the 12P progeny, there was a Buster 14K mating. The 69# Cumberland Gay Lad son did not pass his low BW on to his progeny. Shows the usefulness of WHR.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on June 03, 2016, 01:33:51 PM
We are planning on drawing semen on him this fall.
This is Muridale Robby 12P , the dam of him. She is a maternal sister to Muridale Buster 14K.


Draw it on an international company that can ship semen to Brasil!
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
While you are at it, check that it is eligible for South Africa too!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 04, 2016, 04:54:02 PM
But, its more interesting to look at the bottom side of 12P.


the bottom side is probably the key as this cow has a different udder than the other half sibs on their web page of of ultimate and with his lack of girth, i wouldn't use him.  i would go the direction they are already going. basically, they have figured it out. so has x-bar.
Knabe, what exactly is "it" that has been figured out? I'm kind of chuckling at your comments and trying to figure out what your eluding to. Might as well just come out and say it. It is steer planet after all.
I personally feel the bull is way too big for my operation. Don't get me wrong, I love his phenotypic makeup but give me a bull like that about 500-600 lbs. lighter in a Purebred Shorthorn. The cow has a superb udder and phenotype but may be a 1600+ lb. cow and the bull I believe will produce that size. If that is what you are looking for then this is one of the top bulls I would recommend no doubt. Scot knows my thoughts already and my hope is that we can produce more from HARDY genetics likes these that are lighter mature weight, better ribeye per 100, more consistent on IMF, and more consistently low on birth weight. Man if we could get a bunch of you guys to start using these genetics and making them to this criteria that would be huge for commercial acceptance in the United States. This is not a knock on Muridale's program or anyone's but only my opinion of how close this bull is to being really, really awesome. Just some food for thought.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 04, 2016, 08:05:17 PM
By it, I just mean what lines to combine for a phenotype that is pleasing.


One that is balanced in phenotype, not extreme really for anything, even size.


Size seems easily modulated.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 04, 2016, 08:27:22 PM
By it, I just mean what lines to combine for a phenotype that is pleasing.


One that is balanced in phenotype, not extreme really for anything, even size.


Size seems easily modulated.
Oh o.k. gotcha! Well in that case I agree with ya! Love the lines on this bull. Screams BEEF product!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 04, 2016, 09:49:44 PM
In this case I think the epds show what IT is that the breeder has figured out.
What has the sire brought to the mating and were those characteristics in his sire?
What did the dam get from her dam, and was the grandam consistent with those traits?
But more importantly do the animals have the physical expressions of capacity, fertility, longevity, calving efficiency and carcass quality. First of all one had to be able to see that when they are looking at it. Some can see it without trying, others never will.
If the animal is correct in these characteristics and the breeder can see what they are looking at then the breeder has IT figured out and can REPLICATE IT.
These animals are the right size for where they are.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 04, 2016, 11:18:29 PM
In this case I think the epds show what IT is that the breeder has figured out.
What has the sire brought to the mating and were those characteristics in his sire?
What did the dam get from her dam, and was the grandam consistent with those traits?
But more importantly do the animals have the physical expressions of capacity, fertility, longevity, calving efficiency and carcass quality. First of all one had to be able to see that when they are looking at it. Some can see it without trying, others never will.
If the animal is correct in these characteristics and the breeder can see what they are looking at then the breeder has IT figured out and can REPLICATE IT.
These animals are the right size for where they are.
Librarian, you can't look at an animal and see carcass quality. Those EPD's aren't showing enough accuracy to tell much of a story. Bonanza has pretty much no ribeye and Robbie may have a bit more but miniscule when looked at per 100 lbs. IMF is unknown because you just can't see it. Capacity and girth doesn't equal longevity or fertility or rib eye. Why, in the Shorthorn breed, do we insist on breeding our cattle based on eye appeal and appearance?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 05, 2016, 06:54:45 AM
I disagree. I believe there are visual indicators for all the traits l mentioned and more... But differences of opinion at what challenges us to rethink our assumptions. If I was to fault Robert based on this photo, it would be on his tendency to show patchiness of fat. There is nothing wrong with deriving phenotype from genotype based on knowledge of the ancestors strengths and weaknesses. This builds within genotype strength that can be passed on predictably. Length of fore-rib and spring of rib indicate large organs, especially lungs and heart to pump blood thru the digestive system. Longevity comes from nutrition and the capacity to digest large amounts of forage improves fecundity in cows.
If one uses or promotes a slab sided, pinch gutted, shallow chested, steer headed, twisted nut bull on his IMF and REA and makes a virtue of his lack of eye appeal- then that bull is only useful as the terminal injector of confinement feeding end product premium traits that employ heterosis for vigor. This does make money- no argument there.
However, breed building bulls need the vigor that shows itself in powerfully built complete animals that leave herd building daughters. The Canadians have been doing the heavy lifting for Shorthorns for over a century and if they hadn't stuck to what works instead of what sells, where would we go to salvage functionality? Eventually what works rolls around the learning curve of new breeders and becomes what sells. We are in a moment of alignment right now.

Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 05, 2016, 08:38:59 AM
What you just stated is opinion.


It's not clear what is needed.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 05, 2016, 09:52:02 AM
Of course. I'll never have it figured out, just keep trying to think for myself. Sorry if I lapsed into advising others how to think. In fact, I'm weary of the entire Breed Myth- it's all overburden as the geologists would say.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 05, 2016, 10:39:27 AM
How to think is how to test what is measurable with a minimum of bias.

Cattle breeding suffers from an excess of anecdotal information and not enough genetic turnover to make progress with minor effects.

How to test is what is measurable.

Not much is measurable. That's why cattle breeding is mostly based on emotion.


The only reasons for a breed is to bring people together who interested in a small set of phenotypic markers and somewhat accurate pedigree history. There is no other need for a "breed"
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 05, 2016, 09:28:44 PM
I disagree. I believe there are visual indicators for all the traits l mentioned and more... But differences of opinion at what challenges us to rethink our assumptions. If I was to fault Robert based on this photo, it would be on his tendency to show patchiness of fat. There is nothing wrong with deriving phenotype from genotype based on knowledge of the ancestors strengths and weaknesses. This builds within genotype strength that can be passed on predictably. Length of fore-rib and spring of rib indicate large organs, especially lungs and heart to pump blood thru the digestive system. Longevity comes from nutrition and the capacity to digest large amounts of forage improves fecundity in cows.
If one uses or promotes a slab sided, pinch gutted, shallow chested, steer headed, twisted nut bull on his IMF and REA and makes a virtue of his lack of eye appeal- then that bull is only useful as the terminal injector of confinement feeding end product premium traits that employ heterosis for vigor. This does make money- no argument there.
However, breed building bulls need the vigor that shows itself in powerfully built complete animals that leave herd building daughters. The Canadians have been doing the heavy lifting for Shorthorns for over a century and if they hadn't stuck to what works instead of what sells, where would we go to salvage functionality? Eventually what works rolls around the learning curve of new breeders and becomes what sells. We are in a moment of alignment right now.
I would agree to meet in the middle on this. I think your statement that "there is nothing wrong with deriving phenotype from genotype" is very good and I agree with that. What happens though is when we start talking about the different mature weights we get in to way different scenarios. You can't take a 2500 lb. bull and put him on a 1,000 acre range in the sandhills and make him walk miles for water. Or make 1700 lb. cows do that either. You can try, but from my experience I can tell you what you will get. I am not in the sandhills or on a range but I pressure my cattle and they only eat grass and hay year round. I agree about the Canadian genetics to a point. I have used some that are really bad and some that are really good. Same with about anywhere.
Knabe, I agree with you that there isn't enough genetic turnover in the Shorthorn breed. We haven't had accurate EPD's up until recently and a system worth messing with up until recently. Now we have a really nice online system that breeders can enter tons of performance data that will allow us to get our accuracies up quickly. A breed does need to have an identity when it comes to phenotype and function and what role it will play. Our breed has multiple personality disorder...
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 06, 2016, 07:56:14 AM

 Bonanza has pretty much no ribeye and Robbie may have a bit more but miniscule when looked at per 100 lbs. IMF is unknown because you just can't see it. Capacity and girth doesn't equal longevity or fertility or rib eye. Why, in the Shorthorn breed, do we insist on breeding our cattle based on eye appeal and appearance?

Yup. Can't see efficient either. What's ribeye on buster?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on June 06, 2016, 09:31:10 AM
Actually I wouldn't use ultimate based on the narrow base of his udders and complete lack of circumference around his front rib. 
In fact, I would eliminate him.

Well...we haven't seen his 3rd dimension, which is a consideration.
But, its more interesting to look at the bottom side of 12P. Almost makes me wish it was winter-to sit by the fire and voyage thru the individuals.
Lets talk about HC Trendsetter. Who is Blue Rock Lucky Boy? Are all those great old herd names Canadian?
To me, this is the stuff that gives our breed texture and individuality as well as excellence. I see the breed being boiled down to a few high profile bloodlines instead of al the richness of these pedigrees. But I guess that's the way of the world.

Librarian... you have certainly made me dig back into my memory bank! 

First of all, HC Trendsetter 26K was one of the first sons of Ready Go we ever sold. He was born in March, 1978 and we decided to put two weaned sons of Ready Go in our production sale that fall. Trendsetter was the high selling bull in that sale at $3000, which was pretty good money in 1978. He sold to Jim Mouser, Ramsholt Farms, in Southern Alberta.
His dam was a cow named Dreymaur Mona A, and she was a dual purpose Shorthorn cow I purchased in Ontario, from Maurice Knott's herd.
I was fresh out of college, trying to expand my parents herd, and I had mentioned to Bert Pepper, who was the Secretary Manager of the Canadian Shorthorn Association, that I would like to buy a couple good dual purpose cows to add to our herd. One day Bert phoned me and told me that he had just heard that a very good herd of dual purpose cows was for sale. He said I should fly down to Ontario, and he would show me this herd. Two days later, I got on a plane and went to Ontario.( It's funny some of the stuff you remember, but my return plane ticket on Air Canada to Toronto from Regina was $112.00) The next morning we went to see the herd that was for sale, and found out that the owner had sold the entire herd to another person, the night before. This set of cows were absolutely amazing, and I had never seen Shorthorn cows like this before. They were bigger framed, thicker topped and better uddered than any Shorthorns I had ever seen before. I was pretty deflated when I found out that I could not buy any of these cows.
Seeing I was already down there, Bert offered to take me to some other herds. Each barn I walked into, left me in total amazement. Every herd I saw had some of the best cows I had ever seen. I remember phoning my dad after the first day of touring, and I told him about the cows I was seeing. I told him that I could buys some of these cows at pretty reasonable money. Dad told me that if I could buy them reasonably, that I should try to get some, as we were wanting to expand our herd anyways.
When we arrived at Dreymaur Farms, I had already purchased a few cows from other breeders. Maurice Knott was in his barn and had just sorted off 10 cows that he was sending to the kill plant. The truck was already on it's way to haul them to the kill plant. I looked at each of these cows and I was totally impressed with each of them. I asked him why he was selling them, and he said that they were the bottom end of his producing cows and he was trying to improve his milk records. Bert Pepper had told me that if I wanted good cows for a beef herd, that I should buy cows that had about 8000 lbs or less milk production. Each of these 10 cows were right around the 8000 lbs milk production so I asked him what he would sell any of them for? He said he would sell them for $250.00 each as that was all he would get for them from the packing plant. I bought all 10 of these cows and Dreymaur Mona A was included in this group. She was a beautiful cow with a perfect udder and she was apple smooth. The truck arrived to take these cows to market, about 15 minutes after I bought them, and if I had been even an hour later getting there, I would have not even seen them. I ended up buying 31 cows on that trip. The 10 Dreymaur cows were the cheapest ones I got and I paid $1000 for a couple cows in the Seagrave herd, including a cow named Seagrave Royal Sylvia, who was a full sister to Seagrave Royal Sylvia 2nd that was the highest classified Excellent cow in the breed. This cow had been Grand Champion female at the Royal Winter Fair each of the past 3 years. Most of the cows I purchased were in the $300-$400 range. About half these cows acclimatized very quickly to Western Canadian conditions. A few never did and were gone pretty quickly. There were some that were about as tough as anything I ever owned. I doubt if you could have killed a couple of them with an axe. Two of this group produced here for many years. One had her last calf at 20 years of age and then came in open. Another was here until she was here until she was 18.
Blue Rock Lucky Boy must have been a pretty good bull, as his name appeared in the pedigrees of some of the best dual purpose cows I saw on that trip. The Blue Rock herd was in eastern Ontario, and I never visited it, but I heard lots about the great cows they had.
These 31 cows pretty well filled a cattle liner and some of the cows I purchased were heavy in calf so I was concerned about them making the trip. When they arrived here after the 1500 mile trip, two of the cows had baby calves that were born on the truck. They were healthy and had nursed so all was good. I remember paying the trucking company $1400 for the trip, so I got these cows home for approximately $45.00 per cow. Gasoline must have been cheaper in those days... haha!
HC Trendsetter 26K bred very well at Ramsholt Farms, and when they dispersed, many of the high selling animals were either daughters or grand daughters of him. He is one bull that I have oftentimes wished I could find some semen from.
I don't think there are any of these type of females left in the dual purpose branch of the breed. This was pretty well the end of that era, as they had to push milk production to compete in the dairy industry. Today, the remaining herds have very high milk production and the cows resemble other dairy breeds.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: -XBAR- on June 06, 2016, 11:30:35 AM
I personally feel the bull is way too big for my operation. Don't get me wrong, I love his phenotypic makeup but give me a bull like that about 500-600 lbs. lighter in a Purebred Shorthorn.

I think you're overlooking the significance environment/nutrition plays in determining mature size.  You and I could use the exact same genetics and I guarantee you your cattle, in the same bcs, would be at least a full frame score and easily another hundred plus pounds heavier at maturity.  You could even take those same genetics another 8-10 hours south of me and there'd be a drop off of another frame score and another hundred pounds at maturity- with the same genetics.  You made the comment about this Robert bull not holding up in the sandhills--- I think the point is moot: The bull would have never even got close to the size he is now if raised in that environment.  Not even close.  I think the flipside of this is why many question the growth of some of the genetics you're using.  If those genetics are weaning low 5 weights in the salad bowl Midwest,, what kind of performance are they going to have grazing dry pastures in Texas?Certainly less. 

The bonanza line has proven itself from Canada to California to Texas and many places in between.  This bull here, Robert, is the best Bonanza son I've seen by far-- the 130k influence looks to have worked exceptionally well by bringing a little more retail product to a line that's traditionally known to be more flatter made. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 06, 2016, 03:33:53 PM
I personally feel the bull is way too big for my operation. Don't get me wrong, I love his phenotypic makeup but give me a bull like that about 500-600 lbs. lighter in a Purebred Shorthorn.

I think you're overlooking the significance environment/nutrition plays in determining mature size.  You and I could use the exact same genetics and I guarantee you your cattle, in the same bcs, would be at least a full frame score and easily another hundred plus pounds heavier at maturity.  You could even take those same genetics another 8-10 hours south of me and there'd be a drop off of another frame score and another hundred pounds at maturity- with the same genetics.  You made the comment about this Robert bull not holding up in the sandhills--- I think the point is moot: The bull would have never even got close to the size he is now if raised in that environment.  Not even close.  I think the flipside of this is why many question the growth of some of the genetics you're using.  If those genetics are weaning low 5 weights in the salad bowl Midwest,, what kind of performance are they going to have grazing dry pastures in Texas?Certainly less. 

The bonanza line has proven itself from Canada to California to Texas and many places in between.  This bull here, Robert, is the best Bonanza son I've seen by far-- the 130k influence looks to have worked exceptionally well by bringing a little more retail product to a line that's traditionally known to be more flatter made.
I agree with you that environment plays a role in the size of the animal but there are also genetic tendencies bred into these cattle that play more of a role. Where you got that my cattle wean low 500 weights and people think they have low growth I have no idea. People assume but they haven't used the genetics. A&T Renegade has been used on heifers a lot and his weaning weights are averaging 530. Use him on cows and get 600, then the steers will wean and grow quickly on grain and fatten out at 1250 lbs. They stop growing upwards and start getting finished, that's what I want my cattle to do. I don't want high mature weight cattle that keep getting bigger and bigger. High carcass weight cattle take high inputs, a lot of grain and a lot of time to get them finished. They are harder to get choice and if they lack ribeye then you have another problem. If you think you can buy just any genetics and create a melting pot and conform them quickly to your environment you may be in for a surprise. I do believe there is an optimum cow that can perform at optimum levels in all environments though. You may have to tweak her here and there with some different breeds depending on hot or cold but you know where I'm getting at.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on June 27, 2016, 12:05:06 PM
Here are a couple pictures of 35U daughters. They are out of Red Angus cows .They are my neighbors cows, they are very docile just like he is. The neighbor used 35U on heifers and had no problem calving.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on June 27, 2016, 12:08:00 PM
Muridale Robert 35U
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on June 27, 2016, 02:49:57 PM
Those two "Durham Reds"? are very impressive-I don't see a hole in them, I can"t for the life of me figure why this cross hasn't become more prevalent-they are a cut above many of the Shorthorn females I see in photos. O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 27, 2016, 10:05:22 PM
they look like red amerifax with a little less milk
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mbigelow on June 28, 2016, 08:56:13 AM
I think this bull will be better than his sire. He appears to have more muscle.  I really like the udders on those daughters of his.  If you get him collected this fall let me know I think I will be breeding a few cows to him.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on June 28, 2016, 10:21:37 AM
Not that this would happen... But we could do a collective experiment using this bull in every commercially oriented Shorthorn influenced herd, then compare performance across environments, management scenarios and maternal breed.
Then do the same with those daughters, after sorting, using another bull to tweak things whatever direction and on and on. Not sure how related the bulls should be.  In 5-7 generations we would have an actual population with genetic identity.  If pan-conformity is the goal.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: huntaway on June 28, 2016, 03:19:33 PM
No that this would happen... But we could do a collective experiment using this bull in every commercially oriented Shorthorn influenced herd, then compare performance across environments, management scenarios and maternal breed.
Then do the same with those daughters, after sorting, using another bull to tweak things whatever direction and on and on. Not sure how related they should be.  In 5-7 generations we would have an actual population with genetic identity.  If pan-conformity is the goal.


A number of sheep breeders have used this approach here for many years where from within the group they select a small number of sires that will be used over all the studs to improve linkages and improve the accuracy of any data collected. http://www.wrig.co.nz/ (http://www.wrig.co.nz/)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: GM on June 28, 2016, 04:41:17 PM
I like the bull; awesome photo and two killer productive daughters!  But we are falling in love with pictures of mature shorthorn bulls similar to how we used to fall in love with shorthorn pedigrees.  Data, consistency, and great marketing will win.  We have got a long way to go.

I've probably never quoted AJ, but I remember the time he said, "I don't see a problem with people drinking scotch and making love to old pedigrees.....but,..."  It made me laugh...and continues to make me laugh.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 28, 2016, 06:49:03 PM

A number of sheep breeders have used this approach here for many years where from within the group they select a small number of sires that will be used over all the studs to improve linkages and improve the accuracy of any data collected. [url]http://www.wrig.co.nz/[/url] ([url]http://www.wrig.co.nz/[/url])



awesome idea.  maine's had sort of an idea like this that if a group of people entered bulls in a show, each entrant would get a share of the bull and supposedly people would use that bull.  not near as well thought out obviously.


i think the first and maybe only bull for that type of contest was Nage Wide Track 94J.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 28, 2016, 11:48:55 PM
Not that this would happen... But we could do a collective experiment using this bull in every commercially oriented Shorthorn influenced herd, then compare performance across environments, management scenarios and maternal breed.
Then do the same with those daughters, after sorting, using another bull to tweak things whatever direction and on and on. Not sure how related the bulls should be.  In 5-7 generations we would have an actual population with genetic identity.  If pan-conformity is the goal.
This is already happening. The American Shorthorn Association is working with the University of Illinois to start a "herd bull test". Contact the ASA if you want to have a bull considered for this study. They will be AI'ing many Shorthorn bulls in a test commercial herd and collecting all of the performance, ultrasound, and carcass data from all of the calves. I believe the bulls have to be approved by the ASA and I've heard there is an entry fee of like $2,000 or something. Then you have to give them a bunch of your bulls semen. Sounds like one heck of a deal for somebody... I'm thinking maybe they should approach breeders who have entered a lot of data on their bulls and pay them to give semen for the study or discount their dues...
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on June 29, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
This is already happening. The American Shorthorn Association is working with the University of Illinois to start a "herd bull test". Contact the ASA if you want to have a bull considered for this study. They will be AI'ing many Shorthorn bulls in a test commercial herd and collecting all of the performance, ultrasound, and carcass data from all of the calves. I believe the bulls have to be approved by the ASA and I've heard there is an entry fee of like $2,000 or something. Then you have to give them a bunch of your bulls semen. Sounds like one heck of a deal for somebody... I'm thinking maybe they should approach breeders who have entered a lot of data on their bulls and pay them to give semen for the study or discount their dues...

For anyone interested.

https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Application-Sire-Test_06082016-2.pdf (https://shorthorn.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Application-Sire-Test_06082016-2.pdf)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: -XBAR- on June 29, 2016, 11:35:10 AM
What a joke.  The breeder should supply the semen but the other cost should be funded entirely by the association.   This is the type of stuff that our WHR dues should be paying for. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Endless Meadows on June 29, 2016, 01:52:17 PM
This is starting to get a little off the original topic but while we are on it.  I think it is good to have the sire test started and hopefully it will get going within the breed.  Before I get too critical, it is the first year and there is plenty of room to grow and adapt.  Not everything can be perfect from the start.

On the down side it is fairly cost prohibitive, unless I misread something.   $2000 to AI 20 cows.  At 65% conception rate =13 calves.  Even assuming 100% survivability and not putting a value on the semen,  you would have $153.85 into each calf.  You own nothing and get premiums for nothing but you do get data back.  I understand that data is important and can be extremely valuable, but can the cost be justified? 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: E6 Durhams on June 29, 2016, 08:57:55 PM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on June 29, 2016, 09:48:47 PM
why can't one or more just assemble a set of animals, retain ownership and get the data or contract with the feeder to collect the data.


wouldn't that be cheaper?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on June 30, 2016, 12:23:53 AM
why can't one or more just assemble a set of animals, retain ownership and get the data or contract with the feeder to collect the data.


wouldn't that be cheaper?
This is already happening also and the ASA has helped us do just that. We are about to get kill data on 26 shorthorn and shorthorn plus steers. We also ultrasound all of our yearling heifers and bulls. I am not completely happy with the feeding of my animals at the feedlot trial and I am considering other options.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: oakview on June 30, 2016, 09:38:48 AM
Unless you've been around a while, you may not know the ASA had a sire test over 30 years ago.  I sent about 50 units of semen on my bull.  I believe the cows were owned by Padlock Ranch, perhaps in Wyoming.  The owners of the bull bought the steer calves at weaning and they were sent to a feedlot near Brule, Nebraska.  We took a trip to the feedlot and were able to view all the calves.  It was quite interesting, the sire groups included straight dual purpose, straight beef, and a mix of the two.  We were provided all performance and carcass data.  I know I've got the information somewhere and there were perhaps 20 or more bulls compared.  I don't know what ever happened to the data from the ASA's standpoint.  Shorthorns were also compared with numerous other breeds, up one side and down the other, at the USDA's meat animal research center about that time, perhaps a little later.  Shorthorns compared very, very favorably with the other breeds in all facets of production, conception to carcass.  My neighbor that had 100+ Hereford cows asked his field man why he shouldn't just turn a Shorthorn bull out with all his cows after seeing the data from MARC.  The field man didn't have an answer.  I don't know if this information was ever utilized to he fullest.  I support the "new" sire test, I may even enter a bull next year. 

On the down side, though, I've been told we're in the "Information Age" for over 40 years.  We've got to have this, we've got to provide that, etc.  We ultrasound our bulls and provide performance data at the beef expo and still the ones that sell highest are the "pretty ones."  I'm not saying it's right, but the largest single source of bulls in our area is still the special cattle sale at the sale barn.  Very little if any information is provided.  Selling prices at the most recent sale were from 1,500 to about 3,000.  The only common thread among the bulls is they're almost 100% black.  As long as the black hided myth is perpetuated, black bulls are what's going to be most in demand.  I don't know how many cattle men I've talked to admit they are missing something, but it's hard to argue when they think their calves are going to bring 15 cents a pound more at weaning, simply because they're black.  We can provide all the proof we want, but until that changes, it's going to be hard to get a significant commercial market share.  I hear things are a little different in Canada.  I hope so.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on June 30, 2016, 02:40:10 PM
This is starting to get a little off the original topic but while we are on it.  I think it is good to have the sire test started and hopefully it will get going within the breed.  Before I get too critical, it is the first year and there is plenty of room to grow and adapt.  Not everything can be perfect from the start.

On the down side it is fairly cost prohibitive, unless I misread something.   $2000 to AI 20 cows.  At 65% conception rate =13 calves.  Even assuming 100% survivability and not putting a value on the semen,  you would have $153.85 into each calf.  You own nothing and get premiums for nothing but you do get data back.  I understand that data is important and can be extremely valuable, but can the cost be justified?
Considering we are in the information and technology age, this is what you are buying. If I remember correctly, one animal actual kill data is the equivalent of seven animals scan data. I don't know what it costs you to scan an animal but it may pay you to do the math on this!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on June 30, 2016, 03:15:01 PM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
This sire test is something that the ASA is doing to help it's members. Unfortunately in this day and age, the 'user pays' principle is the norm and if you want information, you have to cough up for it!
You can spend years doing your own in-herd testing, or, you can pay your $2000 dollars and fast track your data collection and accuracy by joining the ASA sire test.
With beef prices declining, and inputs soaring, I think the days of buying a cheap bull with no data at the sale barn and still making a good profit are few.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: JTM on July 01, 2016, 12:20:22 AM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
This sire test is something that the ASA is doing to help it's members. Unfortunately in this day and age, the 'user pays' principle is the norm and if you want information, you have to cough up for it!
You can spend years doing your own in-herd testing, or, you can pay your $2000 dollars and fast track your data collection and accuracy by joining the ASA sire test.
With beef prices declining, and inputs soaring, I think the days of buying a cheap bull with no data at the sale barn and still making a good profit are few.
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Doc on July 01, 2016, 06:05:31 AM
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...
[/quote]

Josh, I agree about knowing about it. I'm even further behind than you, I didn't find out about it until yesterday when I got my Shorthorn Insider email. It makes you wonder if they already had their bulls in place? Why wasn't it one of the headlines when you go to the ASA website instead of the BIF conference and some Jr stuff?
 I'm with Lonnie in that I remember when Shorthorns were always at the top at MARC, but even then it seemed like the ASA preached the data to the choir more than getting out and preaching it to the masses.
 The black hide deal is still real in our area. We use a Angus bull as cleanup on our heifers and then we put our black recips with one of our Shorthorn bulls after an egg has been put in and those black calves will always bring more than their contemporaries that are roan or red even if they are not any better.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on July 01, 2016, 08:46:36 AM
  I don't know how many cattle men I've talked to admit they are missing something, but it's hard to argue when they think their calves are going to bring 15 cents a pound more at weaning, simply because they're black.  We can provide all the proof we want, but until that changes, it's going to be hard to get a significant commercial market share.  I hear things are a little different in Canada.  I hope so.
[/quote]


Here in Canada, there are still areas that preferences for black hides, but where I live in Western Canada, it is more based on quality of the animal than on color. I find that here, the black hided preference is influenced more  by the cattle buyers than it is by the feedlots who place the orders. If you have a set of buyers on a market, that are fairly open minded on quality rather than just color, you will see the price differences disappear. In this day and age, I have no idea why the beef industry is still based on something as insignificant as color. I know that part of this is due to the CAB program, but we also have the CAB program in Canada.
I just sold a few odds and end cattle on June 29th. Two were off age heifers born from recips that did not keep their embryo last year. One heifer was red and one was black. They were born in late May and have been on grass since early May this spring. The red heifer weighed 885 and sold for $1.46/ lb for a gross sale of $1292.10. The black heifer weighed 840 and sold for $137.50 for a gross of $1155.00. The black heifer was 3 days younger than the red heifer. Both were sired by a Shorthorn clean up bull and the black heifer was out of a Simmental/Angus dam and the red heifer was out of a Shorthorn dam. I considered both heifers to be of similar quality, yet there was a difference of $137.00 between the two heifers. ( these prices probably sound high to most reading this, but remember the Canadian dollar is 25-28% lower than the American dollar)
I also sold 3 older cows that were used as recips for several years here. One was black and weighed 1690. She sold for $.9150/ lb and grossed $1546.35. This black cow was 13 years old. I also sold 2 red Shorthorn cows. They sold together and averaged 1622 lbs and they brought $94.50 for an average gross of $1532.80.One of these cows was 17 years old and the other one was 12 years old. These cows were hog fat, and had not seen any grain since they had their first calves, and I thought they sold very well.
On another note, I just did a bit of an analysis on our bull sales this spring. We sold 29 bulls for an average price of $5325. Of these, 28 bulls sold to commercial producers , and most of them were going to be used on black cows. One bull sold to a purebred producer. The roan bulls that sold to commercial producers averaged $6272.00. The red bulls sold to commercial producers averaged $4333. We did not have any white bulls last year, but I am sure if we had some, they would have been in the top end of the sale prices. We sold 3 white open heifers in our sale and they averaged $5416, with 2 of them selling to commercial producers that planned to breed them to Angus bulls.
In some ways, we are almost seeing the reverse of what is happening in the US. In our herd, color adds value. I will take all the roans and whites I can, but we also raise lots of red bulls and heifers as there are still lots wanting them as well.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on July 01, 2016, 09:24:54 AM
This is Muridale Matt 37Y another one of our herdsires.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on July 01, 2016, 09:35:39 AM
Both Robert and Matt are what beef bulls should look like, in any breed. We need far more bulls like these bulls in the Shorthorn breed, in order to gain more commercial acceptance. I often wonder that if the black hide is such a huge issue especially in the US, why more red bulls like there are not used?  They would not only retain the black color but they would benefit from heterosis in the calves? Heterosis has been estimated to result in approximately 15% more performance in a set of calves. I can't think of anything else in this business that offers 15% extra for no additional cost.
Congratulations on having two of the best beef bulls running with your cows!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on July 01, 2016, 10:12:27 AM
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...

The current vacancy in the staff might have something to do with delays in anything related to genetics. I just hope it didn't leave too big of a general Shorthorn/breeder knowledge vacuum as well. I expect some more growing pains along the way. I did see where they are looking for more breeders to join the various committees though, so hopefully that results in some positive additions to the system.

I'm just glad the digital beef system is working fairly smoothly. Some Red Angus breeders are STILL working through theirs after they spent an enormous amount of money, and I can't seem get an email returned no matter who I send it to over there.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on July 01, 2016, 10:26:20 AM
This is Muridale Matt 37Y another one of our herdsires.

It's sure not hard to guess which sire is stacked in his pedigree!

Looks good!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on July 01, 2016, 12:56:45 PM
The math is complicated but if you add all the generations up, he must be a half brother or better to Robert.
MR. How is your Bonanza bull doing? ( if I'm not mixed up)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on July 01, 2016, 01:36:26 PM
The math is complicated but if you add all the generations up, he must be a half brother or better to Robert.
MR. How is your Bonanza bull doing? ( if I'm not mixed up)

He's been busy this spring. Covered some Shorthorns, some Angus, and some Red Angus the past few months. Probably let him run clean up on some fall calving Red Angus this winter. I've been meaning to take a picture now that the summer fescue has stripped him down to his working clothes.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on July 01, 2016, 02:36:54 PM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
This sire test is something that the ASA is doing to help it's members. Unfortunately in this day and age, the 'user pays' principle is the norm and if you want information, you have to cough up for it!
You can spend years doing your own in-herd testing, or, you can pay your $2000 dollars and fast track your data collection and accuracy by joining the ASA sire test.
With beef prices declining, and inputs soaring, I think the days of buying a cheap bull with no data at the sale barn and still making a good profit are few.
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...
My take on the whole USA Shorthorn situation was as follows:
You have the show crowd that rate their herd by the number of awards.
You have the performance crowd that have been doing their thing for decades and have genetics in all corners of the globe.
You have the deep-pocketed breeders who follow the 'fad' and add to the 'hype'.
I get the feeling that the ASA bull test is angled towards the last group.

If your data is lacking after years of data submission you have reason to complain if your accuracies are not up to standard.

I am not too surprised that you have not had a reply to your e-mail because if someone copies me on an e-mail, I take it that it is for information only. If you want a response, direct the e-mail at the intended respondent!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: -XBAR- on July 01, 2016, 03:05:11 PM
who are the 'participants' that the email was sent to?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: huntaway on July 01, 2016, 03:48:54 PM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
This sire test is something that the ASA is doing to help it's members. Unfortunately in this day and age, the 'user pays' principle is the norm and if you want information, you have to cough up for it!
You can spend years doing your own in-herd testing, or, you can pay your $2000 dollars and fast track your data collection and accuracy by joining the ASA sire test.
With beef prices declining, and inputs soaring, I think the days of buying a cheap bull with no data at the sale barn and still making a good profit are few.
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...

Its not just the amount of data its the quality as well. In many herds possibly not yours I see this as a major issue. Small contempory groups with no variation in genetics or data value to make comparisons against. I think that is where the advantage would be.

The cost is in line with progeny tests in Australia. Both the Angus and Shorthorn tests cost $2500. The shorthorn test is limited to 6 sires and the angus 40 a year. If this is the first year they probably did have some sires lined up. Wouldn't be much point doing all the ground work to set up the trial and it fall over because no one nominates their sires.

Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Dale on July 02, 2016, 12:29:22 PM
Do you expect his semen to be available in the USA?  Collecting him is important, because not many bulls fill certain needs as well as Robert.  I waited too long to sample Bonanza, and this may be the right son. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on July 02, 2016, 02:59:39 PM
No the cost can't be justified. Name one thing the Asa does to help its members? Nothing. I want to register my cattle, but not when it costs me money to do it and I get no benefit. It's time for the Asa to step up. Long past time actually.
This sire test is something that the ASA is doing to help it's members. Unfortunately in this day and age, the 'user pays' principle is the norm and if you want information, you have to cough up for it!
You can spend years doing your own in-herd testing, or, you can pay your $2000 dollars and fast track your data collection and accuracy by joining the ASA sire test.
With beef prices declining, and inputs soaring, I think the days of buying a cheap bull with no data at the sale barn and still making a good profit are few.
I've been submitted lots and lots of data for several years. Much more data than this study will give me. 13 calves in a group for over $2,000 cost? Who can afford that in the real world? I didn't even know anything about it until a few weeks ago and it's already at the deadline. The thought crossed my mind that I should put CF Star Bucks in there just for kicks and giggles. I sent an email to the participants saying that I think we should have had a committee to talk about which bulls would be best to objectively enter this test and have the ASA pay for the expense of the testing or do some fundraising for it. I also copied ASA staff. I have received zero replies...

Its not just the amount of data its the quality as well. In many herds possibly not yours I see this as a major issue. Small contempory groups with no variation in genetics or data value to make comparisons against. I think that is where the advantage would be.

The cost is in line with progeny tests in Australia. Both the Angus and Shorthorn tests cost $2500. The shorthorn test is limited to 6 sires and the angus 40 a year. If this is the first year they probably did have some sires lined up. Wouldn't be much point doing all the ground work to set up the trial and it fall over because no one nominates their sires.
This is of uttermost importance in my opinion.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 02, 2016, 04:48:00 PM
This is Muridale Matt 37Y another one of our herdsires./////// THIS BULL NEEDS TO BE COLLECTED-GOT ANY CALVES ON THE GRPUND-AND IS CE LIKE SOME OF THE OTHER MURIDALES?  I AINT NO COYOTE BUT ILL HOWL AT THE MOON IN PUBLIC FOR A LITTLE SEMEN ON HIM O0 <party> <party> <beer> (clapping)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on July 03, 2016, 01:26:36 AM
Quote
Do you expect his semen to be available in the USA?  Collecting him is important, because not many bulls fill certain needs as well as Robert.  I waited too long to sample Bonanza, and this may be the right son.

Yes I am planning on drawing him this fall , and yes it will be exportable to the USA and maybe other countries if it isn't too big of a hassle.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on July 03, 2016, 01:32:03 AM
Quote
HIS BULL NEEDS TO BE COLLECTED-GOT ANY CALVES ON THE GRPUND-AND IS CE LIKE SOME OF THE OTHER MURIDALES?  I AINT NO COYOTE BUT ILL HOWL AT THE MOON IN PUBLIC FOR A LITTLE SEMEN ON HIM O0 <party> <party> <beer> (clapping)

Yes we have calves on the ground and we also have yearlings and some 2 yr old heifers that calved out this spring.
For now we are just planning on drawing Robert 35U sorry.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Doc on July 03, 2016, 06:39:57 AM

The current vacancy in the staff might have something to do with delays in anything related to genetics. I just hope it didn't leave too big of a general Shorthorn/breeder knowledge vacuum as well. I expect some more growing pains along the way. I did see where they are looking for more breeders to join the various committees though, so hopefully that results in some positive additions to the system.

I'm just glad the digital beef system is working fairly smoothly. Some Red Angus breeders are STILL working through theirs after they spent an enormous amount of money, and I can't seem get an email returned no matter who I send it to over there.
[/quote]

 If I'm not mistaken, the current vacancy shouldn't have an effect on what Josh is talking about as Jake just left. I would say that with Jake leaving , it will leave a MAJOR Shorthorn/breeder knowledge vacuum. Other than Gwen, there is no one left with any Shorthorn knowledge or breeder knowledge. I think that will be a major frustration point to most breeders.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: aj on July 03, 2016, 07:40:05 AM
Muri.......I'd be interested in some Robert semen when available.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on July 03, 2016, 08:00:37 AM
To me, it is a toss-up as to which bull I like the best. Both bulls are true beef bulls, but something about the Matt bull really grabs my attention. I also like his pedigree with 3 crosses of Ultimate 130K, two crosses of Bonanza and one of Buster 14K wrapped up together. I can certainly see Ultimate's influence in him.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: kiblercattle on July 03, 2016, 08:42:55 AM
I am with JIT on this one I really like the Matt bull best he just looks like a clean made meat wagon!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on July 03, 2016, 09:10:38 AM
Several years ago, I sold 30 embryos to Sprys Shorthorns in Australia. One of the sires Gerald Spry wanted to use was Alta Cedar Ultimate 130K and I agreed that he was an excellent choice to use. Here is a picture of one of the Ultimate 130K daughters that he got from those embryos. She produced the top bull in Sprys sale a few years ago at $28,000.   
I have always liked Ultimate 130K and have always felt he was one of the true beef bulls in the breed. I believe he was 8 years old when this picture was taken and this was after he had come in from a summer of breeding cows. To me, we could use a bunch of bulls that look like this!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 03, 2016, 09:29:42 AM
I am with JIT on this one I really like the Matt bull best he just looks like a clean made meat wagon!///// Hands down Matt  is the one Id use at least from the two pictures: unless there are calving issues.-Hes cleaner made, shows a much more attractive muscle pattern,and looks like he's much thicker in the rear-which JMO-is one of the few areas some of these Canadian  bulls fall short O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on July 03, 2016, 12:12:30 PM
Notice the wedge shape on the two Muridale bulls as well as 130K.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: librarian on July 03, 2016, 06:13:33 PM
The math is complicated but if you add all the generations up, he must be a half brother or better to Robert.
MR. How is your Bonanza bull doing? ( if I'm not mixed up)

He's been busy this spring. Covered some Shorthorns, some Angus, and some Red Angus the past few months. Probably let him run clean up on some fall calving Red Angus this winter. I've been meaning to take a picture now that the summer fescue has stripped him down to his working clothes.
M R, would you please post a photo- I'm always curious how Bonanza sons look- we already have a pretty good idea how the daughters turn out!

Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on July 03, 2016, 06:58:47 PM
MR. How is your Bonanza bull doing? ( if I'm not mixed up)

He's been busy this spring. Covered some Shorthorns, some Angus, and some Red Angus the past few months. Probably let him run clean up on some fall calving Red Angus this winter. I've been meaning to take a picture now that the summer fescue has stripped him down to his working clothes.
M R, would you please post a photo- I'm always curious how Bonanza sons look- we already have a pretty good idea how the daughters turn out!

I guess Coyote won't mind seeing a young bonanza son in his thread.

(https://s31.postimg.org/554ab89l7/IMG_7171_800.jpg)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: kiblercattle on July 03, 2016, 09:08:24 PM
Anyone have a idea of what their ultimate 130k daughters weigh? The red spry cow looks like she could weigh 1600+++ very easy.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: coyote on July 03, 2016, 11:33:35 PM
Our Alta cedar Ultimate 130k cows would ave around 1500.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: justintime on July 04, 2016, 08:16:00 AM
Anyone have a idea of what their ultimate 130k daughters weigh? The red spry cow looks like she could weigh 1600+++ very easy.


I don't know what the Spry cow would have weighed, but her dam was what I would call a moderate framed cow that on a good day would weigh around 1500 lbs. Sometimes pictures do not depict size very well... in both directions. I have seen some animals that appeared massive in their pictures that were smaller framed in reality, as well as the opposite.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on July 04, 2016, 11:10:43 AM
MR. How is your Bonanza bull doing? ( if I'm not mixed up)

He's been busy this spring. Covered some Shorthorns, some Angus, and some Red Angus the past few months. Probably let him run clean up on some fall calving Red Angus this winter. I've been meaning to take a picture now that the summer fescue has stripped him down to his working clothes.
M R, would you please post a photo- I'm always curious how Bonanza sons look- we already have a pretty good idea how the daughters turn out!

I guess Coyote won't mind seeing a young bonanza son in his thread./// Heres one I like-and hes got some numbers-and performance to go along with them

(https://s31.postimg.org/554ab89l7/IMG_7171_800.jpg)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Doc on July 07, 2016, 09:15:11 PM

The current vacancy in the staff might have something to do with delays in anything related to genetics. I just hope it didn't leave too big of a general Shorthorn/breeder knowledge vacuum as well. I expect some more growing pains along the way. I did see where they are looking for more breeders to join the various committees though, so hopefully that results in some positive additions to the system.

I'm just glad the digital beef system is working fairly smoothly. Some Red Angus breeders are STILL working through theirs after they spent an enormous amount of money, and I can't seem get an email returned no matter who I send it to over there.

 If I'm not mistaken, the current vacancy shouldn't have an effect on what Josh is talking about as Jake just left. I would say that with Jake leaving , it will leave a MAJOR Shorthorn/breeder knowledge vacuum. Other than Gwen, there is no one left with any Shorthorn knowledge or breeder knowledge. I think that will be a major frustration point to most breeders.
[/quote]

 Boy, now I hate to hear that Gwen is leaving as of Aug.1st. I hate that we have now lost all the people that knew the cattle and the breeders.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Dale on February 02, 2021, 03:38:48 PM
Muridale Robert needs to be used more!  Look up his 57 offspring on Canada's digital beef.  Robert is free of myostatin.  He's a real beef bull, and sires high volume cattle.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=M473721
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Dale on February 04, 2021, 01:37:04 PM
Robert's sire, Bonanza, is one of the great ones.  Robert, like Bonanza, has masculinity, which is not as common as it should be.  Dad used to say that when a bull looks around the corner of the barn (with only his head visible) that there should be no doubt about his being a bull.  Masculine bulls sire feminine females--have a look at the Robert daughters on the Cattlevisions website.     
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: idalee on February 04, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
So,  according to the Canadian DigitalBeef data,  Robert has 56 calves with recorded birth weights at 88 pounds average,  40 calves with weaning weights at 559 pounds average and 27 calves with yearling weights at 864 pounds.   The bull himself weighted 85 pounds at birth,  weaned at 520 and had a yearling weight at 950.    He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: knabe on February 04, 2021, 09:13:46 PM
He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional.

what was his own numbers.

numbers are below good. they are probably unacceptable?

his own numbers, 528 and 945

was he sick? something else? bad winter for both him and a calf crop?
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 04, 2021, 10:41:46 PM
Calves up there that grow up in the extremes out on the range and are then developed on what amounts to a roughage ration So they are not going to exhibit the early gains of Midwest cattle who are fed well Which I think all cattle should be They are more or less later maturing due to the environment and resources but mature into at least the size and weights of the cattle down here O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on February 06, 2021, 10:51:04 AM
So,  according to the Canadian DigitalBeef data,  Robert has 56 calves with recorded birth weights at 88 pounds average,  40 calves with weaning weights at 559 pounds average and 27 calves with yearling weights at 864 pounds.   The bull himself weighted 85 pounds at birth,  weaned at 520 and had a yearling weight at 950.    He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional.
Well, looking at these figures, at least his BW figures are true. <5% deviation. That is the only figure that management can't really influence, unless you are dancing with the devil!
The other figures are very easily manipulated with management factors. Taking into consideration the breeder's low maintenance operation, higher weaning weights may be expected, 8% higher than the sire. Achieved! Due to performance testing the yearling figures would, expectedly, deviate from the curve.
Does one really want "exceptional" figures in a successful and established breeding programme?
Unless you have to correct a problem in your herd, "exceptional" figures shouldn't really be necessary. I think that the objective at this stage would be to create "exceptional" phenotype, and what better can one ask for than this sire!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: idalee on February 06, 2021, 04:42:50 PM
To each,  his own!   It seems pointless to operate a registered cattle operation and continuously use average bulls.   Maybe my terminology is at fault,  but personally I wouldn't use a bull who was not better than what I already have. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: carl on February 07, 2021, 09:07:21 AM
To each,  his own!   It seems pointless to operate a registered cattle operation and continuously use average bulls.   Maybe my terminology is at fault,  but personally I wouldn't use a bull who was not better than what I already have.
I'm wondering what you would want to change about this bull in order to use him in your herd? It seems you aren't happy with his individual performance at weaning and yearling. Is this correct?
You got me curious enough to look up the bulls epds. It looks like he is well above breed average for the calving ease and birth weight traits. He's also well above breed average for stay ability and marbling. And well below breed average for ribeye. The traits he is breed average in appear to be the growth traits. Is this what you are referring to when you call him an average bull? And if so, is that because you think we need to increase the performance in our Shorthorn cattle?
It seems to me, if our cattle are big enough(and I think they are), that breed average in these traits is right about where we want to be.
I think the bull is pretty hard to fault phenotypically. I think a herd of 500 of his daughters would be pretty profitable. I  own 1 daughter who just weaned her first calf. I'll know a lot more about her in 5 years, but so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on February 07, 2021, 09:57:33 AM
It looks like I'm one of the few with a daughter in the states. While I did not sample him for growth reasons, her performance was definitely not an issue. If she grows up to look like the pictures of his mature daughters while still being in production at that age I'll wish I had 99 straws left instead of just 9.

Having said that, I do believe there are a lot of shorthorn breeders who do not know how bad their calves would get blown away in the feedlot. Growing too slow and quitting way too early the last few years got a lot of breeders put on the do not buy list. Considering the average herd size, that's probably incorrect and I should say it got a certain color put on the do not buy list.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Duncraggan on February 07, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
I think this can all be attributed to the massive divide between show genetics and commercial genetics. They are, practically, two different breeds!
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 07, 2021, 04:46:43 PM
I would certainely agree for the most part-But I would guess Idalees cattle are farther away from show cattle than Muridale Thermal Energy Jits Cattle, SaskValleys influence on and on JMO-I really havent seen very many native (dual-milker oriented side NOT Leader 21st etc) lately that would step in the ring with ALOT of those Canadian Cattle At the very least in terms of stoutness  O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: -XBAR- on February 15, 2021, 03:47:31 PM
Shorthorn average is more performance than my environment can support.   Exposes the worst part about epds. People see the percentile ranking as “better” or “worse” instead of appropriately using them to identify and match a level of performance within the cattle to their environment.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: beebe on February 15, 2021, 04:44:50 PM
Shorthorn average is more performance than my environment can support.   Exposes the worst part about epds. People see the percentile ranking as “better” or “worse” instead of appropriately using them to identify and match a level of performance within the cattle to their environment.
Very well said.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 21, 2021, 09:06:13 PM
LETS ALL TAKE BRITISH BREED MATERNAL CATTLE OUT OF THIER TRUE ENVIRONMENT AND TRY TO COMPARE THIER INDECES TO BOS INDICOS OR WHATEVER IN  SOUTH TEXAS OR SOME MILKING SHOTHORN forgotten prairie FANTASY WORLD- NEED TO HAVE  RANGE CATTLE TO THRIVE IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. AT the very LEAST in some of the SHORTHORN BREEDING I HAVE SEEN.  Even in less hostile environments IVE LOST COUNT OF HOW MANY SMALL HERDS  IVE SEEN THAT ARE RUN BY EARTH SHOE YUPPIES or overgrazing wanna be's  WHO HAVE PITIFUL STARVING ANIMALS Want  good looking shorthorn (appearing) angus ( appearing) or hereford types to survive in a very harsh environment? Breed them to brahmas beefmasters brafords etc THE  CATTLE IVE SEEN  OTHER THAN CROSSING OUT that way  ARE THE CLUBBY CHARx AMERICAN-HEREFORD APPEARING- SHORTHORN WHO KNOWS WHAT THAT ARE ALL OVER THE TEXAS OKLAHOMA SALES THE CALVES LOOK GOOD CONTRARY TO SOME PERCEPTIONS Probably because these cattle come from range cattle not far back in thier lineage O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: -XBAR- on February 22, 2021, 08:32:25 PM
Where specifically on the map is their ‘true environment?’   I’m in North Texas 40 inches of rain a year where most people running a cow per 4 acres.   Average growth epds is plenty here.  Do you want to see some thin calves use you a trait leader growth bull.   I’ll put the mid 40s WW bulls up against any here. 
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: oakview on February 23, 2021, 09:18:52 AM
In my 60 years of cattle experience, the one recurring theme has been performance.  The AI stud books from the late 60's pushed performance, breed associations pushed performance, cattle shows and sales have pushed performance.  The oldest ABS bull catalog I have, over 50 years old, graphically demonstrates how much your calves sired by their bulls will out perform calves out of other bulls.  I have read the "banker and the bull" story so many times I'm sick of it.  The exotic breeds were brought over here under the banner of how much they will improve the performance of your calves.  I have lived through the ASA's SPR and WHR programs.  I personally participated in the old ASA sire test.  Every time I sell bulls at the beef expo they are weighed with WDA supplied to prospective  buyers.  Every time I go to a show, as a participant or an observer, the bulls are weighed with the information supplied to the judge.  I have listened many times to judges as they say, "the second place heifer is as good or better than the first place heifer, there's just not as much of her."  Our county fair was among the first to weigh in calves and provide ADG figures to the judge.  You cannot ignore performance.  As I have stated before, every cattle producer has to determine the proper amount of performance that his or her environment can sustain.  For some it might be total grassfed beef with little or no input, for others it might be trying to obtain those 1,000 pound weaning weights, and every thing in between.  I have recommended for years that genetics should be purchased from someone who produces cattle the way you do.  That increases your odds of getting what you expect.  I have used a few Canadian bulls lately, assuming that since they survived 500 miles north of me, they should survive here.  Since the past few weeks have been among the most brutal we've ever had, it's a good thing they're used to it.   
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: CAB on February 23, 2021, 09:32:11 AM
I am 63 years old and have had cows since I was 9. the thing is I haven't figured anything out yet. It seems like to me that the epds are geared mostly for the packers and the feeders. I sell feeder calves. The most important numbers for me are $W and $EN within the Angus sire Summaries.
An interesting question though is Kit Pharo's. If you have 50,000lb pot loads of calves and the one has 600lb calves in it and the other is loaded with 450lb calves, which pot load would you rather receive the money for. Most years the 450lb pot load of calves will bring somewhere in the neighborhood of $15k to $20K more than the 600lb calves. Something to think about. ::)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: GoWyo on February 24, 2021, 10:08:47 PM
Calf weaning weights have started to plateau due to limitations in their environment despite all the hot rod growth genetics and schemes to make bulls with 1000 adjusted 205-day weights.  Weaning weight is highly important, but so is cost control and feedlot performance and feed efficiency and carcass value.

Summary
Overall, these results indicate
that trends for WW in commercial
cow-calf operations vary substantially
by region of the country. However,
there is considerable evidence that
progress in WW may be limited by
the production environment in
commercial cow-calf operations.
Perhaps one of the most
important takeaways from this
study is that commercial cow-calf
producers need to keep good records
in order to monitor progress in WW
and enterprise cost of production
over time.
Assuming a lack of significant
progress in calf WW, efforts to
enhance profitability should focus
on reducing cost of production
and/or capturing value of genetic
potential for post-weaning
performance and carcass value.

http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/0219-weaning-weight.pdf (http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/0219-weaning-weight.pdf)
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 25, 2021, 11:16:10 AM
Salina KS gets 30.7 inches of rain a year and 1 to 1.5 feet of snow so around 41 inches maybe The buffalo grass is a pretty good nutriant so 3 acres per cow calf seems to be a good ratio although under 2.5 and the cattle start struggling This year they were overgrazed in one pasture and it really showed The heat can be pretty bad but not to the extent of Texas but so can the cold-Below zero temps also take a toll The weather in Iowa has been below zero for weeks with windchills sometimes 49 below-THAT HAS TO ACCOUNT for some pretty extreme weight loss-and also count against the green grass and cornfields A wild guess would be that most cattle (british continental etc) will get along based upon the acerage per and somewhat to thier lineage Evergreen Seville Ayatollah and some of the other milking or rodeo and or show lineage of today will not keep well without extra nutrician-I was around to see that in person Where-people like Ralph Holloway in the 80s had Shorthorn range cattle that had Irish breeding but NEVER any dual-Wish I had a field full today  O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: Medium Rare on February 25, 2021, 02:12:37 PM
It looks like I'm one of the few with a daughter in the states. While I did not sample him for growth reasons, her performance was definitely not an issue. If she grows up to look like the pictures of his mature daughters while still being in production at that age I'll wish I had 99 straws left instead of just 9.

I recently found this Muridale Robert daughter with a 69lb Hot Commodity heifer calf. After a few days of observing, it's obvious he did not hurt the cow line's mothering instincts.

I sure wouldn't let average growth epds scare me away from trying him.
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: mark tenenbaum on February 26, 2021, 08:39:46 AM
I agree and have seen alot of very good bulls that werent from numbers they were just good This is the highest performing bull I have EVER USED Fresh Air His numbers do not show the grow whatso ever but every calf I know about was a stringbean growing like a run away train -then after tons of disappointing changes start to fill out and look real good  This heifer is an example-And she didnt grow up like fuffy the kittycat  Shes also on a high roughage ration and the numbers ARE REAL  O0
Title: Re: New Herdsire
Post by: turning grass into beef on February 26, 2021, 09:01:55 AM
  I have recommended for years that genetics should be purchased from someone who produces cattle the way you do.  That increases your odds of getting what you expect.
IMO this is the most intelligent statement I have ever seen posted on this website. (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)