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Offline DL

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2008, 10:32:53 AM »
we have referred to these as "terminal show heifers"

Talk about TH and PHA, what about selling Johnes or PI-BVD carriers?  Thats just as deceptive.


And when the terminal show heifers end up in someones pasture pregnant what do we call them?

Yes I agree about JD and BVD PIs - bad diseases that are most often purchased, esp JD - however, with JD the disease may show up years after the infection and the tests, esp when there is no clinical disease, are not terribly sensitive - so unlike PHA or TH when the answer is pretty clear from the affected calf or the DNA test, it is possible to sell an JD infected animal and not know it is infected even if it was tested (ie sell a show heifer - test not very reliable at that age) - so IMHO JD is a more complicated scenario. I recommend that anybody who buys anything that has access or nose contact to their breeding stock have it ear notched for BVD PI - very cheap insurance against a potential wreck

few people test for JD and are involved in a control or eradication program - JD is a complicated disease - there is a bunch of information of SP from a  while ago and I have some handouts on beef and JD I can email anybody who wants them.

My herd is BVD free and we test negative annually for JD and have for over a decade - anybody else test?
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Offline BIGTEX

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2008, 10:38:12 AM »
I think the difference is TESTING...you say you test them and then act appropiately......of all the pasture type sales I have been to in the last TWO years, not a single one had tested their calves. NOT ONE. And even those advertised as breeding heifers were not tested.  So, that tells me, many "breeders" or "jocks" do not care if they pass a carrier on to an unsuspecting buyer....I tell sellers and my "kids" that if it is not worth their $54 to test an animal, then it is not worth my time or money to waste with them. 

Oh, by the way, most of the "market heifers" around here are taken back to the farm and bred.....

Isn't that the owners' decision?



 I think if you are a responsible buyer(and don't want a defective calf) you would have them tested yourself after the purchase and before breeding. If you don't want to take the chance on maybe getting a pos. female then make sure her pedigree is clean.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 10:43:51 AM by BIGTEX »
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Offline simtal

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2008, 11:00:23 AM »
I agree if you buy from the sale barn (notorious for junk) then you should expect to own junk.
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Offline Show Heifer

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2008, 02:01:48 PM »
I absolutely agree 1000% with that simtal and knabe.

That is why I ask about herd status when and IF I buy anything......and why this fall/spring, I will be testing every cow on the place for both BVD and Johnes, and then going for that certified free status.
I have not had any BVD or Johnes, but want that famous piece of paper to back me up!!!

A hypothitcal question: A breeder takes a group of heifers to the sale barn, they are nice, and are all AI'd sired. The seller says NOTHING about them being carriers of a genetic disease. Someone buys them and breeds them to a bull they bought at a bull sale. (Heifers are carriers, and by chance so is the bull). This commercial cattleman know has 25% TH/PHA calves that are dead, loses some of the heifers. Who is to blame.
Or this scenario: A commercial guy buys 3 bulls at a salebarn special breeding bull sale. He breeds them to his cows, and decides to keep replacement heifers....turns them in with a bull from same farm and they have deformed/dead calves. If he bought them at a BREEDING BULL/REPLACEMENT sale, should the location (salebarn) hold the blame???

Lots of commercial guys around here go to those special sales to buy "replacement" stock. THAT is what is being advertised and what is being represented. Who is to blame there??

Totally different story if you go to the weekly sale and buy out of the "kill" or "pound" pen.
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Offline simtal

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2008, 02:48:47 PM »
I would think that the seller is completely blameless on both scenarios because the animals didn't sell with any guarantee. Unless the sale barn has terms and conditions specific to what went wrong (I'm guessing few do).


Reputation, however, would be comprised.
....Now, they always, in the direst of circumstances, every time liberalism fails, which is every time it's tried, at some point you reach a catastrophe.....

Offline TPX

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2008, 11:09:39 PM »
As a Canadian red angus breeder I havent heard  much about this genetic defect but I will be sending a note to the assoc. to see what they have to say.  I was also wondering do you guys think that the american pure bred breeders tend to lend themeselves to be hit more by a genetic defect b/c somemany people tend to jump on certian genetics at once.  I am not talking just about the RA but also seems to happen in the shorthorns, angus, maine and simms.  I notice that in some breeds in the states alot of the programs that people have within in breeds arent much different then most other breeders.  It seems like up here in canada most people have there own program and sticks to it.  But I will not kid you there are still alot of bandwagon jumpers with alot of the new investers coming in.

Offline SD

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2008, 04:47:24 AM »
Is that called the herd mentality? TPX, I think it has a lot to do with it and a few problems too. But at the same time look at the number of defect cattle (RA) to the total. Its amazing.

But as you know in Canada it can take just one to send the whole thing crazy.
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Offline DL

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Re: New RA Genetic defect rules
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2008, 08:33:16 AM »
As a Canadian red angus breeder I havent heard  much about this genetic defect but I will be sending a note to the assoc. to see what they have to say.  I was also wondering do you guys think that the american pure bred breeders tend to lend themeselves to be hit more by a genetic defect b/c somemany people tend to jump on certian genetics at once.  I am not talking just about the RA but also seems to happen in the shorthorns, angus, maine and simms.  I notice that in some breeds in the states alot of the programs that people have within in breeds arent much different then most other breeders.  It seems like up here in canada most people have there own program and sticks to it.  But I will not kid you there are still alot of bandwagon jumpers with alot of the new investers coming in.

I think there are breeders - people who have a program and a goal and have thought about where they want to go and where they want to be in 10 or 20 years, and then there are those who simply multiply cattle with the goal of having the next great one - winner of the purple ribbon and of course there  are also the followers - jump on the band wagon breeders. When you have this kind of scenario - breeding for single traits or a specific look or following the bandwagon you are much more likely to end up with a critical mass of carrier animals and the explosion of defects from recessive traits. IMO when breeders identify a possible genetic defect they contact their vet or the association this is certainly the case with TH and Nick Steinke as well as the owner of the 7D7 Angus dwarf carrier bull, when multipliers or followers see a dead weird calf they bury it. The Australians using popular American Angus genetics have found themselves in a bit of a mess with Fawn Calf Syndrome. I do not think that the Canadian breeds are defect free but it appears from the breeders up north that I know there is more emphasis on having a program and less on nonfunctional hairy cattle that can win in the show ring.

I am impressed with the aggressive and timely approach with which the RAAA attacked the problem - IMHO it shows exactly what they think is important
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 08:35:45 AM by DL »
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