not sure on shorthorn cattle

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

I am not running down the breed, I have looked at a good number of shorthorn cattle now and at this present time I have not found many bulls or cows that blow my mind. I have seen many great Angus, simmy, and Saler cattle that I would love to own. I bought some shorthorn cows to help bring the breed back around here in Montana and hopefully give people another option when thinking of crossing on their cows. I have spent countless hours on the internet and it seems like the bulls i find to be attracted to are bulls in Canada.Muridale, Diamond, and Alta Cedar although Ralf Larson and Wally Klose have some great cattle.. I have bred cows to these club calf sires in the states and had awful results would never do it again or allow my friends to go that route, basically all i got were calves that weaned at 500 pounds when the black cows brought home 700 pound calves. I think if this breed is going to make it then it better move in a direction that meets the needs of commercial producers and packers. I have shown cattle for some time now and for the most part nothing has let me down more then a grand champion shorthorn show cow raising a underweight ball of hair. In the saler cattle I raised I tried new genetics and there were some great bulls but hands down the best cows I ever owned were out of a older bull named Prince. Im not saying that old genetics are the answer to everything or maybe not a answer at all, but please take some time to look at the greats in the other breeds compared to the shorthorn and unless my vision is fading you can clearly see that very few shorthorns of today can compare IMO.

mark tenenbaum · Nov 21, 2015

!You are involved with alot of antiquated breeding a mix of fullblood maine is about the only way to change them-years ago that use and Irish breeding were used by the breedrs who brought the cattle out of beltbuckle mode rather than the skinny Dairy rat cattle.-EVER BEEN TO LOUISVILLE, DENVER, OR THE BIG SHOW IN MONTANA? OR SEEN THE TEXAS OKLAHOMA CATTLE? The red cow is in Montana-and shes a 20 20 vision- Thats her son-also there-who hes sold alot of bulls out of-great BWS and grow-over 1230 at a year-The 2 next bulls are also his. Wanna change those oldstyle cows and add grow-use the last bull posted-hes 2500 pounds , has been used on hiefers, and has the genetics. It sounds tho-that your cattle are not thick enough and thats very hard to change-and if you want to look as good as the others-Id use some for recips, and buy some newer genetics-that arent cow killers, its the next big thing and they are great looking cattle. O0 O0

r.n.reed · Nov 21, 2015

You mentioned a 1/2 dozen herds that you thought bred cattle that had the potential to meet your needs. I am not familiar with Wally's program but the other 5 have something in common,a long time disciplined approach to breeding cattle to meet their personal and customer requirements.Based on your stated goals and where you are located it would be a no brainer to build a foundation with cattle from these herds. Buying from herds like these can knock years off the process of reaching your goals.Blindly using the old semen is like closing your eyes and picking a bull out of the latest semen catalog.These guys have already done the work for you.
Changing the Shorthorn perception will happen 1 herd at a time until critical mass is achieved.Eternal optimism and a little stubbornness are valuable traits for a Shorthorn breeder.

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

mark tenenbaum said:
!You are involved with alot of antiquated breeding a mix of fullblood maine is about the only way to change them-years ago that use and Irish breeding were used by the breedrs who brought the cattle out of beltbuckle mode rather than the skinny Dairy rat cattle.-EVER BEEN TO LOUISVILLE, DENVER, OR THE BIG SHOW IN MONTANA? OR SEEN THE TEXAS OKLAHOMA CATTLE? The red cow is in Montana-and shes a 20 20 vision- Thats her son-also there-who hes sold alot of bulls out of-great BWS and grow-over 1230 at a year-The 2 next bulls are also his. Wanna change those oldstyle cows and add grow-use the last bull posted-hes 2500 pounds , has been used on hiefers, and has the genetics. It sounds tho-that your cattle are not thick enough and thats very hard to change-and if you want to look as good as the others-Id use some for recips, and buy some newer genetics-that arent cow killers, its the next big thing and they are great looking cattle. O0 O0

Your right, those are pictures of good looking cattle the cow on the bottom I have a few saler cows with a little angus blood in them that look almost identical to that cow. I have seen pictures of the old bulls and by looks 4 point major, leader 9, cumberland gay lad are some of the better bulls Ive seen in the breed up to date. I spoke with man that when on a shorthorn tour sometime back and he stated that JPJ was one of if not the most pitiful herd bull he has ever seen. The other thing that makes picking a bull out hard is that a large percent of the photos on the bull are when he was a young and looked like a club calf. Also where are the pictures of shorthorn cows with 700-800 pound calves at their side? because in the end that it is about for me. Producing calving ease cattle that will wean heavy calves, and making great replacement cows.

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

r.n.reed said:
You mentioned a 1/2 dozen herds that you thought bred cattle that had the potential to meet your needs. I am not familiar with Wally's program but the other 5 have something in common,a long time disciplined approach to breeding cattle to meet their personal and customer requirements.Based on your stated goals and where you are located it would be a no brainer to build a foundation with cattle from these herds. Buying from herds like these can knock years off the process of reaching your goals.Blindly using the old semen is like closing your eyes and picking a bull out of the latest semen catalog.These guys have already done the work for you.
Changing the Shorthorn perception will happen 1 herd at a time until critical mass is achieved.Eternal optimism and a little stubbornness are valuable traits for a Shorthorn breeder.

Yes that would be the thing to do. I contacted one of the breeders in canada that I thought had very good cattle and the fact is that i cannot pay 10 thousand dollars for a bred heifer. I would like to get a good shorthorn herd going but i cannot throw money blindly at it and hope that I can build a market for them. I have to look at this both ways I have to find a way to put quality cattle together and not spend crazy amounts of money. If I can not find a market for this cattle then I will have a nice set of cows to crossbreed.

librarian · Nov 21, 2015

...I bought some shorthorn cows to help bring the breed back around here in Montana and hopefully give people another option when thinking of crossing on their cows.
... I think if this breed is going to make it then it better move in a direction that meets the needs of commercial producers and packers....

You kind of answered your own question.
What Shorthorn genetics do you need to put on your cows to make calves that are commercially profitable?
Figure that out and start breeding the kind of cows that a commercial Shorthorn breeder will find useful. Line the breeding up so that your customer can use the cows they buy from you with bulls from the breeders you resourced to improve your cows for real world beef production.
While you are improving your cows, they will be building their next generation bulls for your replacements. Having limited choices for functional Shorthorn genetics isn't a bad thing...

knabe · Nov 21, 2015

3 Eagles shorthorns said:
I spoke with man that when on a shorthorn tour sometime back and he stated that JPJ was one of if not the most pitiful herd bull he has ever seen.

one would need context to even make that statement even remotely useful.

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

librarian said:
...I bought some shorthorn cows to help bring the breed back around here in Montana and hopefully give people another option when thinking of crossing on their cows.
... I think if this breed is going to make it then it better move in a direction that meets the needs of commercial producers and packers....

You kind of answered your own question.
What Shorthorn genetics do you need to put on your cows to make calves that are commercially profitable?
Figure that out and start breeding the kind of cows that a commercial Shorthorn breeder will find useful. Line the breeding up so that your customer can use the cows they buy from you with bulls from the breeders you resourced to improve your cows for real world beef production.
While you are improving your cows, they will be building their next generation bulls for your replacements. Having limited choices for functional Shorthorn genetics isn't a bad thing...

I am sure you have looked in a semen catalog and if you find one with shorthorn semen in it that talk more then just what the cattle do in the showring please point me in that direction. Things like like weaning weight, yearling weight, milk and carcass data would be a good start. I went down to Missoula stockyard lastweek I buy a few feeder calves every month Im not sure if the calves were galloway or white park but anyhow I bought weaned 465 pound steer calves for 1.33 pound.

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

knabe said:
3 Eagles shorthorns said:

I spoke with man that when on a shorthorn tour sometime back and he stated that JPJ was one of if not the most pitiful herd bull he has ever seen.

Click to expand...

one would need context to even make that statement even remotely useful.

I have not seen the bull myself so i cannot judge him.And basically his comment was if people could see this bull as a mature bull he was sure all the hype will die down, that is his thought not mine. I do find it very interesting that most these shorthorn bulls only have pictures out there of when that were calves or fluffed up for some big show. where are the pictures of their daughters raising 700 800lb steer calves, Where are the pictures of these bulls with their working clothes on? there are some yes, but few and far between.

Dale · Nov 21, 2015

How far are you from Warner Ranch? Warner looks like they have working Shorthorns. Two or more of their bulls are at Cattle Visions. Is Crooked Post in Canada? Surely they and many others would have females under $10K. Montana is not in my back yard, but there are probably other practical Shorthorns in your neck of the woods in addition to those you named.

Bert Moore, Stangl & Jungels are in the Dakotas. Where is Peak Valley Ranch? Loving Farms, Fieser's, and Keith Lauer are in KS. Rob Sneed is in MO, but I'm not sure how far west. There is Haumont (NE) and there are several in MN and Iowa. I've left out more than I've included. Subscribe to Shorthorn Country and read the business card (small) ads. Your type of genetics are out there, but may not be highly promoted.

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 21, 2015

Dale said:
How far are you from Warner Ranch? Warner looks like they have working Shorthorns. Two or more of their bulls are at Cattle Visions. Is Crooked Post in Canada? Surely they and many others would have females under $10K. Montana is not in my back yard, but there are probably other practical Shorthorns in your neck of the woods in addition to those you named.

Bert Moore, Stangl & Jungels are in the Dakotas. Where is Peak Valley Ranch? Loving Farms, Fieser's, and Keith Lauer are in KS. Rob Sneed is in MO, but I'm not sure how far west. There is Haumont (NE) and there are several in MN and Iowa. I've left out more than I've included. Subscribe to Shorthorn Country and read the business card (small) ads. Your type of genetics are out there, but may not be highly promoted.

I am about 30 mins north of Missoula Montana. which is maybe 3 hours from the canadian border. I will continue to look and purchase what I feel I can. Montana shorthorns have a small sale every year and ill have to see what they have to offer. I'm not sure if there is foundation quality cattle offered at the sale but there very well could be.

librarian · Nov 21, 2015

Sorry, I didn't mean what's available in the semen catalogs. I agree that's a sad situation.
Ralph Larson is in your backyard. He's already blended Leader 6th with some of the most functional commercial Shorthorn genetics around. Kapers bull 4508 out of a classic bull, President 26A, and both breeders have taken the old genetics forward and into relevance today.
Both sell semen.

knabe · Nov 21, 2015

I have not seen the bull myself so i cannot judge him.And basically his comment was if people could see this bull as a mature bull he was sure all the hype will die down, that is his thought not mine. I do find it very interesting that most these shorthorn bulls only have pictures out there of when that were calves or fluffed up for some big show. where are the pictures of their daughters raising 700 800lb steer calves, Where are the pictures of these bulls with their working clothes on? there are some yes, but few and far between.

bulls in their working clothes is subject to a lot of variability.

feed availability
number of bulls per cow
pampered pasture
dryland pasture
lots of other stuff.

it's like going on a date.

it doesn't impress the ladies to be on the couch unshaven with skivvies on, beer in hand and no shower yet watching football with a cigarette in one's mouth.

apparently he does what he's supposed to, otherwise he wouldn't get used.

personally, i like them better than trump, but the jpj's are a little too pone fat for me. saw a few dividend cattle back in the day, and i liked them.

coyote · Nov 21, 2015

Here is a link to The Alliance sale in Saskatoon.
There might be something in the sale that you might be interested in, 3 Eagles shorthorns .
http://saskshorthorns.com/2015alliance.pdf

Dale · Nov 21, 2015

Mark T., what's the name or regnum of the red bull? His sons are impressive.

Coach · Nov 21, 2015

Question for Mark: who is the roan bull pictured in the snow?

mark tenenbaum · Nov 21, 2015

Those arent his sons-they are Canadian bulls he brought in later that I found on facebook- Hes Zane Martin Promised Land Cattle- Fishtail Montana The bull is sired by a K-kim bull I think Hahns may have had and out of the red cow who goes back to 20 20 vis and Montana range cattle-the bull pictured was supreme over all at the big Montana expo or something- Hes sired a bunch of Short bull calves that have gone to commercial herds in the most Angus predjudiced part of the world as we know it. OUR FRIEND ON THIS THREAD HERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION- IF THAT GOOD SOB IN THE PICTURE DOESNT GET HIS AND ANYBODY ELSES ATTENTION- time for them to get in another breed. Like I said: I want to see pictures of the cows hes talking about- everybody has spent more than enough time on this thread without any clear idea what they look like- sometimes- THEY ARE 5 GENERATIONS AWAY-and it doesnt matter what you use, the change could take 5-8 years-which AGAIN-isnt worth alot of anyones time or effort- in that case ET them as recips-or make them black in that part of the world O0

mark tenenbaum · Nov 21, 2015

Coach said:
Question for Mark: who is the roan bull pictured in the snow? Zane Martin had him on facebook and I dont remember and hes from Canada which is obvious the way hes made-but thats one good rascal-somebody needs to find out if he got collected- PS-that 1st RED bull is WAY good and almost a complete outcross-and SIRED BY A PERFORMANCE NON-SHOW oriented K-Kim bull. O0 O0- JMO

3 Eagles shorthorns · Nov 22, 2015

mark tenenbaum said:
Those arent his sons-they are Canadian bulls he brought in later that I found on facebook- Hes Zane Martin Promised Land Cattle- Fishtail Montana The bull is sired by a K-kim bull I think Hahns may have had and out of the red cow who goes back to 20 20 vis and Montana range cattle-the bull pictured was supreme over all at the big Montana expo or something- Hes sired a bunch of Short bull calves that have gone to commercial herds in the most Angus predjudiced part of the world as we know it. OUR FRIEND ON THIS THREAD HERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION- IF THAT GOOD SOB IN THE PICTURE DOESNT GET HIS AND ANYBODY ELSES ATTENTION- time for them to get in another breed. Like I said: I want to see pictures of the cows hes talking about- everybody has spent more than enough time on this thread without any clear idea what they look like- sometimes- THEY ARE 5 GENERATIONS AWAY-and it doesnt matter what you use, the change could take 5-8 years-which AGAIN-isnt worth alot of anyones time or effort- in that case ET them as recips-or make them black in that part of the world O0

Like I said they are good looking bulls, not sure what else you want from me on that if is to buy semen right away thats not going to happen, but they are good looking bulls. As far as the cows im talking about I have not figured out the that part adding photos yet,but if you could google Peak Dot Ranch thats the kind of bulls im talking about in fact Peak Dot Predominant is the bull I wish I could find in the shorthorn breed. Coleman angus in Charlo montana take a look that their donor cows and if you know cows that match up with these cows please send me in that direction. I would raise angus if I knew I could have a solid market for them but there are thousands of breeders and getting into that market in my country is pretty damn hard. I'm not here to fight with you i'm here to get lead to the best cattle out there that will work for a commercial operation. Like i've stated and you refused to read show me weaning weights and actually calving weights what the replacements milk like and I will gladly use what I feel to be the best bull or bulls if that is found in a calf born today ill use him or if its from a 50 years ago ill use him.The catalog posted on here early today looks like a awesome place to buy some females. This shorthorn business and getting ranchers to try this bulls is going to be a hard chore but when one does decide to bite I want to provide a bull that can make a positive impact in his or her herd, the kind of cattle where they can sleep through the night and look at the extra pounds on the scale come shipping time.

mark tenenbaum · Nov 22, 2015

Talk to Zane Martin above-who raised the red bull above- He sells commercial bulls in Montana now-and also has other breeds-wanna see what the cattle need to look like? They are there at his place O0

not sure on shorthorn cattle

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