Nothing is Sacred Anymore-- ISF Butter Cow

Show stopper 95 said:

Hijacking another thread to try to MARKET your world champion, how ironic

Click to expand...

commercialfarmer said:

Hmmmmm. Is silence violence? Or just deafening???

Still waiting for some evidence.....

State legislations have banned marijuana use also... And we all know your views there.  You can't continue with your wishy washy ways son.  Legislation is not data.
 
In case you forgot (its a short term memory loss consequence issue of the herb with no consequence...), you're losing the debate son...  Chop, chop.  Where is the data?

"This boy’s more mixed up than a feather in a whirlwind"

Click to expand...

commercialfarmer said:

Son, you can't see.  I've never used legislation as a basis for my point.  You did.  Grounding your logic in legislation, you automatically lose.

Secondly, so now you wish to replace sound science by public opinion.  Take that back a few years and see where that gets you....  good luck with that flat earth thing!

You right, you won't accept facts because you see that by doing so, you can't win.  I don't need you to accept it, there are mountains of published references listing the correlation.  Your opinion, doesn't matter.  You started with emotion, and can't win with emotion.

What is so silly, is that you jump on here and yell at others about being objective and the need for numbers, numbers, numbers.  It is so past hypocritical, I'll need to come up with a new word.  I'll work on that.

Click to expand...

knabe said:

Can the stress that d&r cause each other be measured?

Click to expand...

commercialfarmer said:

-XBAR- said:

commercialfarmer said:

-XBAR- said:

If the ag industry as a whole would separate themselves from some of the more unjust ag practices such as gestation crates and propagating animals with genetic defects, the distinction between animal abusers and those that care a great deal about the general well being of their animals would become much more apparent. I feel as long as the industry as a whole defends these practices, both will continue to be judged as one in the same. And that's unfortunate.

Click to expand...

Gestation crates being inhumane, is there data to support that?

Click to expand...

You must be disconnected from the definition of 'inhumane' as I don't know that a feeling can be quantified through your suggestion of formal data.  One must simply ask themself, "if it weren't for the love of money, (again, compromising the soul of man) would these practices continue to slide by our moral compass and be deemed acceptable?  Just pray about it- perhaps that's what's needed. 

Outside of a cpl swine practices, SOME veal operations, and some indoor feedlots- I'm the biggest proponent of the ag industry.  Fortunately, the consumers are speaking up and the more exposure those practices get ==> the more the producers will then listen==> the sooner the ag industry as a whole will rid themselves of the stereotypes associated with those practices. 

The domino effect has to stop being used as a defense.

Click to expand...

I do not doubt that there is much.... you do not know know or understand young grasshopper.  The world is large and full of many wondrous things.  There is much order in nature, and order stacked on order.  It has existed since creation, but we are slow to unlock its keys.  But understand this, all emotions have physical manifestations, and these are measurable.  The brains emotions and the physical body are not disconnected, but instead tightly woven.

Inhumane treatment will cause emotional and/or physical stress.  This stress will cause increased cortisol production, increased blood pressure, alterations in heart rhythm, and respiration, alteration in weight, changes in protein synthesis.  Animals that are stressed do not perform as efficiently as animals that are not stressed.
Anything that truly has an effect can be measured, otherwise, how do you know it is having an effect? 

Where is the data to support the claim?  Maybe it is true... if it is, it can be measured.

Click to expand...

-XBAR- said:

commercialfarmer said:

-XBAR- said:

commercialfarmer said:

-XBAR- said:

If the ag industry as a whole would separate themselves from some of the more unjust ag practices such as gestation crates and propagating animals with genetic defects, the distinction between animal abusers and those that care a great deal about the general well being of their animals would become much more apparent. I feel as long as the industry as a whole defends these practices, both will continue to be judged as one in the same. And that's unfortunate.

Click to expand...

Gestation crates being inhumane, is there data to support that?

Click to expand...

You must be disconnected from the definition of 'inhumane' as I don't know that a feeling can be quantified through your suggestion of formal data.  One must simply ask themself, "if it weren't for the love of money, (again, compromising the soul of man) would these practices continue to slide by our moral compass and be deemed acceptable?  Just pray about it- perhaps that's what's needed. 

Outside of a cpl swine practices, SOME veal operations, and some indoor feedlots- I'm the biggest proponent of the ag industry.  Fortunately, the consumers are speaking up and the more exposure those practices get ==> the more the producers will then listen==> the sooner the ag industry as a whole will rid themselves of the stereotypes associated with those practices. 

The domino effect has to stop being used as a defense.

Click to expand...

I do not doubt that there is much.... you do not know know or understand young grasshopper.  The world is large and full of many wondrous things.  There is much order in nature, and order stacked on order.  It has existed since creation, but we are slow to unlock its keys.  But understand this, all emotions have physical manifestations, and these are measurable.  The brains emotions and the physical body are not disconnected, but instead tightly woven.

Inhumane treatment will cause emotional and/or physical stress.  This stress will cause increased cortisol production, increased blood pressure, alterations in heart rhythm, and respiration, alteration in weight, changes in protein synthesis.  Animals that are stressed do not perform as efficiently as animals that are not stressed.
Anything that truly has an effect can be measured, otherwise, how do you know it is having an effect? 

Where is the data to support the claim?  Maybe it is true... if it is, it can be measured.

Click to expand...

Its all relative to what you are accustomed to prior.  If I put you in a 3 x 5 cage for a month and then release you into a 20 x 20, I'm sure your vitals will show tremendous improvements.  That doesn' t mean that your current situation would not be stressful.  What inflicts pain in suffering in one individual might be regarding as considerable improvement in way of life for another.  I used to manage a moving company.  I can recall a moving a lady out of 12000 sq ft house into a 5500 sq ft.  Throughout the entire movin process, she was just beside herself at the compromise she was going to have to make.  She just didn't know if she could (mentally) handle it.  Undoubtedly there was increased cortisol production, increased blood pressure, alterations in heart rhythm, and respiration, and so on.  As for me, I would have rolled in that place with the biggest **** eatin grin imaginable and would have been swinging from the chandeliers. 

To suggest that because these animals aren't exhibiting the classic signs of "stress", that they aren't being treated poorly in fraudulent..  Dogs in a pound for example.  Walk in and you will see many dogs just happy as hell to see someone.  Others laying down in the back because its a huge downgrade from the living room couch their accustomed to. 

Just because an animal can tolerate an environment and cope without exhibiting noticeable stress doesn't mean they're in a just position or that they're being treated adequately.

Click to expand...

-XBAR- said:

My point that just because you deem it acceptable, doesn't make it right.

Insensitive to the butter cow!?  (lol)  O let bow down before thee o graven image. Get real dude.

Can't beat them where? In a real production scenario?  Ill put Vanguard's calves next year in the great state feedout up against anyone's.  are you a taker? Or do you even own any cows?

Click to expand...

Shorthorns4us said:

Wow-- didn't realize I'd get this much conversation going with this thread, but that is ok.

X-Bar:  I don't want to fight with you, but I still believe that G-crates are one of the best inventions developed in animal husbandry.  Now let me tell you where that comes from:  I grew up on a pretty standard Iowa farm in the late 70's and 80's-- and dad had a farrow to finish operation the old way-- old facilities, old fence, old equipment and it was miserable to try to raise hogs.  Now I do think that those hogs in the dirt lots were pretty happy being pigs and getting into mud and doing all that pig stuff, but having an old outdated farrowing house was awful.  We had old wood stalls-- with a corner boarded off for the piglets with the heat lamp.  Those sows were awful to get in the stall-- then risk your life reaching in to feed and water and then when they farrowed-- they would lay on those pigs, or eat them, or just be totally grumps and try to crawl over and eat you.  So our wean ratio wasn't great with some litters.  Then there were the sows that built the nest out in the lot in the hog shelter and pigged out there-- then they were at the mercy of the pen mates-- laying on the pigs, eating the pigs, etc.  As the 80's went along and we were broke and finally my dad could see that if you can't advance to update your hog buildings, he finally exited farrowing. I have even more "Farming with Hogs" stories, but moving on...
We had a feeding floor next to the barn that we feed the pigs out on-- they weren't confinement, but they weren't open range-- those hogs all seemed pretty happy to me the several months they were there before they went to IBP or Farmland.  Part of this is also knowing animal nature-- hogs are smart- hogs are curious, but hogs are also lazy-- I don't think they care where they are as long as they are fed, safe and have a place to laze about.  Just look at the big boar at the ISF-- He doesn't care he only has 8X8 to live in-- all he wants to do is sleep.
JMO

EF

Click to expand...