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Offline sue

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 11:00:08 AM »
Dry falls welcome! I attached Terook Super 38g
Registered Shorthorns & Shorthorn/Red Angus Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 11:02:54 AM »
Anybody want any 2975? got some-along with a few g-9 straws O0

Offline Okotoks

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 11:14:58 AM »
Dry falls welcome! I attached Terook Super 38g
Now that's a bull!
Should be one a lot of people could use! (clapping) He has a +4.4 CE

Offline knabe

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 08:25:06 PM »
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Offline JPS

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 10:14:24 PM »
Just visited with Bert Moore on a similar issue.  If GrousePark wants to keep his native status many of the Irish bulls (improver, leader, etc.) aren't accepted because their pedigrees came over with only one generation and they can't be traced to the coates herd book.  As you can imagine this really limits the bulls you can use.  Eionmor Mr Gus 85C is native.  And it appears that Mr Gus 80C and Mr Gus 30B maybe native also.  Dr. Moore is going to research that for me.

Offline knabe

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 11:43:21 PM »

what if dna analysis shows the older pure lines have other stuff in them?

didnt people lie or make mistakes back then too?
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Offline r.n.reed

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 08:42:27 AM »
 Make sure there is no Cruikshank breeding in them,a chapter in the 1919 book,Kansas Shorthorns discusses that issue.Also one of the early herd books from the 1850's discusses the cloud over some of the first importations and other quote pure cattle in the early herd books.I have a couple of herd books from the Kentucky assoc.from the 1870's who started their own organisation because they felt their cattle were more pure than others.
Gary Kaper

Offline justintime

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 10:20:40 AM »
Make sure there is no Cruikshank breeding in them,a chapter in the 1919 book,Kansas Shorthorns discusses that issue.Also one of the early herd books from the 1850's discusses the cloud over some of the first importations and other quote pure cattle in the early herd books.I have a couple of herd books from the Kentucky assoc.from the 1870's who started their own organisation because they felt their cattle were more pure than others.

I really wonder what can be considered to be true native lines. It is a matter of opinion and everyone seems to have one. When I look over some of the cattle that are classed as " native" I see cattle that I would never include on the list. For example, I see a number of Weston sires and we will probably never know exactly what bloodlines some of them were. There are many others. It is the same thing with non appendix and appendix cattle. There are lots and lots of non appendix pedigrees that I look at and have to just shake my head in disbelief. This is not only a Shorthorn issue. We have all heard the stories from other breeds of using unknown or fudged genetics. When the beef industry was still chasing the yard stick, I got a call from a well known Angus breeder in the US, asking me if I could source some semen from McKee's Matchless Dairyman ( a Milking Shorthorn bull). He said that he had found that this bull when used on black cows would sire all black calves. He also said that the calves from him also blood typed as being Angus(BTW, I never bothered looking for any semen for this guy!). I have no idea if this was correct, but I do remember having a discussion on some of these issues with the head of the blood testing lab  at Ohio State.This was in the early 70s and he told me that they had identified 9 full blood Maine bulls that blood typed as Purebred Shorthorns. He also said that there were some major blood typing issues in some other breeds as well. When we imported the Irish cattle we were told that some of them were not even close to being normal Shorthorn Blood types. Again, we will never know exactly what was in the background of some of these cattle. Because they were accepted into the herd books the breed associations decided to accept their blood types as being normal. I remember one Irish imported bull that the lab said had a totally different blood type to any bovine they had in their records.

 I also remember a neighbour of mine, asking me if I would stop in and look at his calves from semen he had purchased from a recent Denver Champion Angus bull( of that era). When I stopped in to look at the calves, I was surprised to see 3 calves with big wide stars on their foreheads. This guy was fit to be tied as he would never use any bloodline he did not believe was pure. He sent every calf from that sire to the auction market.
One of the greatest visits I have ever had, was with Donald McGillvary when I visited Scotland three years ago. Donald owned the famed Calrossie stud in Scotland. At the time, I was trying to locate a female whose pedigree could be traced back to the pure Scottish lines, for a breeder in another country. I asked him if he knew of any of these females left in the UK?  He rely was " I sure the Hell hope not". I was a bit surprised by his answer, and he then went on to tell me about how wrong they had been to breed those cattle.He said that there was no thought put into the beef industry in those days, and that it was more hobby breeding than breeding to improve the cattle's worth to the industry. Then he said that maybe the only early bloodlines that were developed to help the industry were the Cruikshank cattle. I had heard and read  some of the same stuff r.n. reed refers to here. I asked Donald about this, and he said that he did not believe this and felt that it was rumour and stories developed against Cruikshank because he was developing better cattle than most others of that day. I don't know who is right, but we have many more recent examples of so called pure status cattle that have questionable heritage. Not too many breeders seem to be concerned with these cattle.
I will agree that the Irish strains should never be included as "native" Shorthorns, but they are probably as "native" as some on the list. I was involved in importing the second set of Irish cattle to North America, and it was never our intention to have them registered in the closed herd book, in fact we originally registered them as percentage cattle in the appendix book. Two years later, a motion was brought to the Canadian Annual Meeting to put the Irish in the closed herd book. My partners and myself travelled to this meeting to oppose this, and  we were the only opposing votes. I have always found that interesting!!!Now it is hard to find a so called purebred ( non asterisk) animal here that does not have Irish in it"s background. Some have Irish bloodlines 8 or 10 times in their genetic make-up. This is one of the main reasons I decided that the branch of the breed that an animal was from was not that important. There are numeros other examples.  I also feel that if so many animals hadn't been " conveniently "included in the closed herd books,over the years, that there would not be many so called purebred " non appendix" cattle left. I just wish more people would take the time to study their lessons.  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:54:06 PM by justintime »
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Offline justintime

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 07:27:35 PM »
Back to the original topic, that being old horned Shorthorn bulls.  

I have been racking my brain as to what horned bulls from the past that could be available yet. Most of the ones I can think of were dual purpose bulls, but they were great bulls in their own right in every regard. I still have a couple canes of Seagrave Royal Imperial in my tanks. Royal Imperial was a dual Purpose bull with tremendous thickness and muscling. His mother was one of the greatest cows I have ever seen  and she was Seagrave Royal Sylvia 2nd. She was the highest classified dual cow in Canada for many years ( the breed association used to have fieldmen who went across the country and graded cows on the type. An A classification was consider an average cow. AA was considered above average, and AAA was an elite cow in the breed) Royal Sylvia 2nd was the highest scoring cow in the country and I think I would have to agree with this classification. I had a full sister and a couple daughters in our herd back in the 70s and while they were purchased from a dairy herd, they worked great as beef cows. Royal Imperial was born in 1969, was solid red, and super correct. His daughters were thick and had flawless udders. I have been tempted to pull some Royal Imperial out of the semen tank and use it in a flush, but haven't done it yet.

There were some great horned bulls back in this era that never had semen collected. One bull I remember was named Scotsdale Nordic. He was simply massive! Probably weighed 2500 lbs on a poor day. Super easy fleshing and I can still remember the great daughters he sired. They were roomy, thick and very easy fleshing. I can't remember seeing a bad calf from him, of either sex. I would give my eye teeth to use this bull today, but unfortunately no semen was ever collected and I don't think there ever was any from his sons. There was a couple other Scotsdale bulls in this era that were also great sires. I find it interesting that even though these bulls were from small framed Scottish bloodlines, some bigger bulls came out of these genetics. My dad had a Louada bull named Louada Clachan by Bapton Constructor who was also a big bull. Clachan weighed over 2300 lbs as an old bull when he was sold. He was thick with tremendous length, and again, super easy fleshing. I do not remember my dad ever feeding him grain, yet he always looked like he could walk into a show ring.


There was semen collected from a couple Brandon Researh and Lacombe research bulls but I have not run into any of it for some time.  The Brandon, Lacombe and Indian Head research farms all had closed Shorthorn herds and no new genetcis was ever added since the early 50s. These cattle were intensly line bred, but there were some excellent cattle developed.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 07:30:13 PM by justintime »
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Offline Grousepark

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 09:04:16 PM »
Justintime and everyone,
    I kindly thank you all for these responses.  I'm learning volumes from this thread.  Now, I am extremely interested in semen from the Seagrave bull.  It is always a draw when a bull is known to have come from a fantastic cow.  The same is true, I'm told, for Nelco Mcleod and Kenmar President 26A.  IPS Canadian Image of USA's dame came from th Jibbskot herd that was closely associated with the Brandon/Indian head group, I believe.   As for the beef bulls, I've picked up a few leads: one is Cruachan Max Leader, and I've got a lead on ONE amp from a bull called Spring Canyon Prince.  I appreciate the input about Native shorthorns.
    What does it mean to register an animal?  What does it mean to say purebred?  I guess it goes along the line that "there are no guarantees".  If an animal is Native certified there is no guarantee that it is 100% (whatever that even means).  But this is the road I choose.  In fact, I'm personally pleased that the ASA did include the Appendix admission status.  If the ASA hadn't, forgery of pedigress would have been ever-so much-more so...This give me the opportunity to pursue the Native (unless shown otherwise) shorthorns. I can only imagine how much "less than true" genes are in the black breeds.  Bottom line.....to each their own.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Good Cattle Are Good Cattle.

Offline knabe

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 09:21:10 PM »
Save hair, verify parentage and when things change to get what you want registered, do it..  All that's really need is verified pedigree.  You can always go route of keeney if you want with angus and no longer registering.
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Offline JPS

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 09:55:31 PM »
You have all brought up very valid points.  If you read some of the books on the history of the breed, the same questions on pedigree occurred back when the coates herd book started.  Errors in pedigrees have occurred both intentionall and by accident.  Without DNA and blood tests, you wouldn't know unless a phenotype was drastically different.  A Maine breeder told me that under the old blood testing program, 50% of the time a Maine would blood type as a shorthorn.  And the fact that the different associations had different rules makes it further confusing.  The Irish cattle and Illawara were accepted in Canada as asterisk free, but not in the US.

Raise the kind of cattle you like and can market.  If I had some lines that qualified as "Native", I would try to keep them that way as a marketing tool.  You could always bring in some non-native females also.  Enjoy your Shorthorns!

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 08:30:54 AM »
Grousepark,your search is over!You will not find a better horned native bull with more beef production credentials than Spring Canyon Prince.Spare no expense to get the maximum from that amp!
 I respect the native program but do not like the fact that it has the potential to change the discussion of what a valuable beef animal is.In a lot of cases we are talking about 255/256ths difference or less in the degree of purity providing the native pedigrees are all correct.The fashionable pedigree craze has sidetracked this breed many times in the past,lets be careful to not let this happen again.
Gary Kaper

Offline NHR

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 02:29:26 PM »
Roy Lovaas has some pretty good info and photos of Natvie stock.

http://www.rlshorthorns.com/native_shorthorns.htm
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Offline jaimiediamond

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Re: old horned shorthorn bulls semen
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 03:18:27 PM »
Roy Lovaas has some pretty good info and photos of Natvie stock.

http://www.rlshorthorns.com/native_shorthorns.htm


They really do ave some interesting genetics! Some of those bulls are impressive in any days standards

 

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