Old Maine Bulls

doc-sun · May 11, 2017

yes

http://maine-anjou.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=475115

I think his birthweights will be 75 to 85 judging what we have had from Yukon and his mother and then adjust that for the difference in your environment from Arkansas.
We have only assisted 1 calf in about 25 from Yukon.

764wdchev · May 12, 2017

Doc,

Do you know if Yukon got into the ASA before they changed the rules pertaining to incorporating Maines? You have posted some impressive pictures of Yukon, but if he isn't a "Legacy" Maine, it's not very advantageous to use anything outside of Shorthorn (if you are wanting purebred Shorthorns).

doc-sun · May 12, 2017

764wdchev said:
Doc,

Do you know if Yukon got into the ASA before they changed the rules pertaining to incorporating Maines? You have posted some impressive pictures of Yukon, but if he isn't a "Legacy" Maine, it's not very advantageous to use anything outside of Shorthorn (if you are wanting purebred Shorthorns).

yep. did it myself. so is the bull above's mother.

http://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=AR59110

http://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=AR59105

Duncraggan · May 14, 2017

doc-sun: Although I am a purist as far as pedigrees go, if I was in North America with my current herd I would be experimenting 'big time' with these genetics!
The thickness and muscle expression on your bulls is exceptional, compliments! (clapping)

Go Green · May 15, 2017

Duncraggan said:
doc-sun: Although I am a purist as far as pedigrees go, if I was in North America with my current herd I would be experimenting 'big time' with these genetics!
The thickness and muscle expression on your bulls is exceptional, compliments! (clapping)

What he said! i would love to try one of those bulls on one of my Shorthorns <beer>

So they would be able to register Maintainer or Shorthorn Plus?

Are they available through any major semen distributors?

oakview · May 15, 2017

When Maines became legally usable, at least for registration purposes, on Shorthorns in the late 80's, we tried Cunia, Capone, Covino III, Dollar II, Etula, Cygne, and maybe a few others I can't remember. Later on, I used Data Bank (red, polled purebred Maine). I liked the results. I sold some pretty good steers sired by an Etula son that was out of a Dollar II granddaughter. I think he came in the herd book as a 7/8 Shorthorn and 5/8 Maine Anjou. I liked the Cunias best for cows, Dollar IIs best for performance, and the Etula son added a lot of muscle and depth of body to the calves. We didn't really have calving issues to speak of, but I didn't use any of them on heifers. I sold a really good Data Bank bull that sired lots of extremely good show calves several years ago. I've been told Epinal is a very good female sire. I've got several units of semen, but have not used any. I like the smoothness and eye appeal of the Yukon bull. I'd think he'd work very well on Shorthorn cows. As far as show cattle, you've got to have a very refined, long front on the show heifers. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just the way it is. The fullblood Maines would have to be used on a very good fronted Shorthorn female and even then they might not be considered "feminine" enough to really compete. Many of the old fullblood Maine bulls are already in the ASA herdbook at the 3/4 level, I believe that's what Yukon is, as well. Resulting calves out of purebred Shorthorn cows would come in as a 7/8 Shorthorn Plus. The following generation after using another purebred Shorthorn would produce purebred offspring. I don't think that's changed recently. I'm not sure of the Maintainer requirements.

Go Green · May 15, 2017

Does she qualify as good fronted? she just had her first calf last week. I think she is by far my most feminine cow, but i'm pretty new to all this.

oakview · May 15, 2017

She looks like a very good female, hard to tell exactly how long necked she is with her head looking at the camera. To see what you'll need, look up Cates, Sullivan, WHR, Little Cedar websites and take a look at the females that are winning. The next 10 in class behind them will be almost exactly the same. If you're just starting, you wouldn't know that when the Maines first entered the ASA herdbook, we were about 15 years into the dual purpose infusion and used the Maines for the muscling, square hip, extra bone, and to fix the back legs on some of what we had. We had the reserve champion Shorthorn heifer at the Iowa Beef Expo in the early 90's on a 3W Payoff daughter out of a Dollar II cow. Her pedigree included traditional beef Shorthorn breeding, dual purpose Shorthorn breeding, Irish Shorthorn breeding, and the Maine influence through Dollar II. I probably have 20 females in the herd from the Roseleaf family that go back to that Dollar II cow. I'd take 50 more of her, but she was not nearly feminine fronted enough herself (for a show heifer). We sold her 3W Payoff daughter at the top of the Iowa Beef Expo the next year as a bred heifer (she was bred to Cunia). We bought her back a few years later when Fossil Creek in Texas dispersed. The old Dollar II cow later produced a daughter of Green Ridge Cop Top Trampas that was probably my favorite of her offspring. That cow sold in our mature cow sale in 2003 to Obrechts and she was the cow-calf champion at the Iowa Junior Show several times. However, she was not feminine fronted enough to crack the top 5 when we showed her as a yearling in Louisville. I've had a lot of fun over the years molding the genetic material available to produce what I wanted.

Go Green · May 16, 2017

All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

mark tenenbaum · May 16, 2017

Id like to see her pedigree-she looks to have the KABA breeding-Solution, the Rose Family etc . The "newer" maine Xs like all the Red Reward sons seem to work pretty well on ones like her. And they are definitely easier calving. JMO-fullbloods work beter on goosey Irish cattle or the hardoing so-called "non asteric" native or dual cows-of which there are not a whole lot of anymore: because only a handfull of cattle people use them-and very few of those are commercial breeders-at least untill they have been thickened up some. Shes pretty stout and I dont think a fullblood on her would make anything 'showy". O0

xxcc · May 17, 2017

Go Green said:
All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.

xxcc · May 17, 2017

Mark H said:
Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret. Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf. If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham. Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time. He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good. A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling. This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds. His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either. Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows. Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are. The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles. I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada. For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola. For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.

I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me.

mark tenenbaum · May 17, 2017

xxcc said:
Mark H said:

Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret. Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf. If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham. Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time. He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good. A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling. This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds. His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either. Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows. Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are. The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles. I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada. For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola. For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.

Click to expand...

I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me. //// ???????????

doc-sun · May 17, 2017

mark tenenbaum said:
xxcc said:

Mark H said:

Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret. Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf. If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham. Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time. He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good. A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling. This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds. His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either. Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows. Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are. The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles. I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada. For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola. For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.

Click to expand...

I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me. //// ???????????

Click to expand...

to answer your puzzlement. this was a TRUMPIAN post. a few facts. some true. some not. some fake.

doc-sun · May 17, 2017

Go Green said:
Duncraggan said:

doc-sun: Although I am a purist as far as pedigrees go, if I was in North America with my current herd I would be experimenting 'big time' with these genetics!
The thickness and muscle expression on your bulls is exceptional, compliments! (clapping)

Click to expand...

What he said! i would love to try one of those bulls on one of my Shorthorns <beer>

So they would be able to register Maintainer or Shorthorn Plus?

Are they available through any major semen distributors?

pm me for info on semen

doc-sun · May 17, 2017

xxcc said:
Go Green said:

All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

Click to expand...

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.

i remember that too and thought at the time it only applied to fullblood maines but then purebred reds with an angus background such as data bank were let in too and they were closer to half durham if that much. were any blacks let in as 3/4? it looks like i need to look at my pedigrees in shorthorn digital beef and fix the missing info like i did on maine digital beef so they show correctly.

Mark H · May 17, 2017

xxcc,

I am not going to get in a name calling match with you, just suffice to say everything I said is my lived experience and pretty much is in agreement with other posters opinions of these bulls. I am around 15 years older than you so I know you did likely did not see these bulls or their calves in the mid 1970's when they were in general use since you were just born or a toddler at the time.
Also the fact that Dollar 2nd was a double muscled carrier was common knowledge at the time since Western Breeders put this right in the description of the bull in the catalogue to warn people. A few other bulls had the same problem but I forget their names.
Other than this Oakveiw hits the nail on the head on the Maine bulls he describes. Other bulls that I liked at the time were Dabla and Epinal. Any opinions on thse two?

RyanChandler · May 17, 2017

xxcc said:
Go Green said:

All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

Click to expand...

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.

What a terrible decision that was. I think it goes without saying that there's not just an extreme amount of interest in Shorthorn cattle but when I do get a call showin interest, one of the very first queations that comes up is whether or not these are the cattle that have been crossed up with the Maines-- Their inclusion is certainly not seen as a positive from those on the outside looking in.

doc-sun · May 17, 2017

Xbar is too young to remember all the horns on noassatol. It was a prominent drug in it's day. (lol)

mark tenenbaum · May 18, 2017

doc-sun said:
Xbar is too young to remember all the horns on noassatol. It was a prominent drug in it's day. (lol)//// From what i see some of those cattle still look like that-and as far as the "shorthorns crossed with Maines" almost all of them are-especially anything that goes back to Enticer, Mark 4, 2975 3W Payoff and numerous others- Not to mention ones that obviously (to some) had a little charolais like Columbus, Chi etc. So if you go back a few generations and know Shorthorns-its like the pot calling the kettle black. I for one thought those cattle were a lot better for adding some scale and maybe thickness than the cat butted dairy rats-long necked long legged -count every rib,no thickness at all,skin and bones cattle O0

Old Maine Bulls

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