Quantcast Old Maine Bulls

Vollborn & Call Online Sale - 9/24






Sponsors















Author Topic: Old Maine Bulls  (Read 5986 times)

Offline xxcc

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
  • Karma 27
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2017, 11:11:14 PM »
All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.
Et tu, Brute?

Offline xxcc

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
  • Karma 27
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2017, 11:14:30 PM »
Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret.  Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf.  If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham.  Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time.  He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good.  A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling.  This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds.  His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either.  Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows.  Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are.  The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles.  I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada.  For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola.  For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.


I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me.
Et tu, Brute?

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4094
  • Karma 112
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2017, 07:24:04 AM »
Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret.  Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf.  If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham.  Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time.  He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good.  A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling.  This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds.  His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either.  Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows.  Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are.  The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles.  I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada.  For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola.  For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.


I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me. //// ???????????

Offline doc-sun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Karma 12
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2017, 10:12:52 AM »
Shaver Buret is from Shaver farms out of the first import Maine bull registered in Canada Buret.  Gary Graham owned Buret and selected him in France as a calf.  If anyone knows about this bull it would be Gary Graham.  Here is his website: http://www.manitoumaineanjou.ca/
I saw Dollar 2nd in stud at Western Breeders and he was a massive individual being 3,200 LB at the time.  He was smooth compared to many of the French Imports at the time and the calves I saw were good.  A problem soon reared his head when it was found out the hard way he was heterozygous for double muscling.  This effectively ended his use in many purebred herds.  His birth weights weren't the lightest but they weren't the worst either.  Cows only here.
These were very big cattle; average 100 LB plus birth weights were common in Western Canada on these bulls from purebred and fullblood cows.  Your birth weight may be less depending on where you are.  The cows produced were also big- 1,750 to 2,000 LB with some larger.
Like many European beef breeds at the time the yearling bulls had small testicles.  I have seen Maine Anjou bull sales where they had many bulls not make the sale for this reason.
Red Knight was more calving ease oriented than the above two bulls being breed in Canada.  For a Maine calving ease bull look at Coca Cola.  For the longest, muscled out, heavy boned and hard calving bull look at Crack.


I was in need of a good chuckle tonight. This pretty much did it for me. //// ???????????


to answer your puzzlement. this was a TRUMPIAN post. a few facts. some true. some not. some fake.

Offline doc-sun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Karma 12
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2017, 10:16:06 AM »
doc-sun: Although I am a purist as far as pedigrees go, if I was in North America with my current herd I would be experimenting 'big time' with these genetics!
The thickness and muscle expression on your bulls is exceptional, compliments! (clapping)

What he said! i would love to try one of those bulls on one of my Shorthorns <beer>

So they would be able to register Maintainer or Shorthorn Plus?

Are they available through any major semen distributors?
pm me for info on semen

Offline doc-sun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Karma 12
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2017, 10:25:45 AM »
All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.
i remember that too and thought at the time it only applied to fullblood maines but then purebred reds with an angus background such as data bank were let in too and they were closer to half durham if that much. were any blacks let in as 3/4? it looks like i need to look at my pedigrees in shorthorn digital beef and fix the missing info like i did on maine digital beef so they show correctly.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 10:34:23 AM by doc-sun »

Offline Mark H

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
  • Karma 25
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2017, 06:50:21 PM »
xxcc,

I am not going to get in a name calling match with you, just suffice to say everything I said is my lived experience and pretty much is in agreement with other posters opinions of these bulls.  I am around 15 years older than you so I know you did likely did not see these bulls or their calves in the mid 1970's when they were in general use since you were just born or a toddler at the time. 
Also the fact that Dollar 2nd was a double muscled carrier was common knowledge at the time since Western Breeders put this right in the description of the bull in the  catalogue to warn people.  A few other bulls had the same problem but I forget their names.
Other than this Oakveiw hits the nail on the head on the Maine bulls he describes.  Other bulls that I liked at the time were Dabla and Epinal.  Any opinions on thse two?

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3154
  • Karma 144
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2017, 08:28:20 PM »
All very good info, thank you very much. i was wondering how "Fullblood Maines" could be registered as 3/4 shorthorns.

Its all starting to come together for me now. (pop)

what I was told years ago by the Shorthorn Association was that ASA contacted U'PRA Maine-Anjou (at that time, the French Maine Assn.) and did a study to see what the composition on French Maines was based on Durham and Mancelle...the number that sticks out in my mind, but I'd have to look back to verify was French Maine (on avg) = 73.52% Durham, balance Mancelle. ASA rounded off at 75% and called it good.

 What a terrible decision that was.   I think it goes without saying that there's not just an extreme amount of interest in Shorthorn cattle but when I do get a call showin interest, one of the very first queations that comes up  is whether or not these are the cattle that have been crossed up with the Maines--   Their inclusion is certainly not seen as a positive from those on the outside looking in.
The best cow is the cow that goes unnoticed the longest

Offline doc-sun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Karma 12
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2017, 08:51:34 PM »
Xbar is too young to remember all the horns on noassatol. It was a prominent drug in it's day. (lol)

Offline mark tenenbaum

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 4094
  • Karma 112
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2017, 07:54:47 AM »
Xbar is too young to remember all the horns on noassatol. It was a prominent drug in it's day. (lol)//// From what i see some of those cattle still look like that-and as far as the "shorthorns crossed with Maines" almost all of them are-especially anything that goes back to Enticer, Mark 4, 2975 3W Payoff  and numerous others- Not to mention ones that obviously (to some) had a little charolais like Columbus, Chi etc. So if you go back a few generations and know Shorthorns-its like  the pot calling the kettle black. I for one thought those cattle were a lot better for adding some scale and maybe thickness than the cat butted dairy rats-long necked long legged -count every rib,no thickness at all,skin and bones cattle  O0

Offline oakview

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Karma 56
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2017, 09:33:35 AM »
If it wasn't so sad, it would be amusing when people complain about Maines crossed with Shorthorns.  At least we were above board and the Maines were actually identified on the pedigree.  I have no idea where you could find a real "purebred" Angus today.  If you were around in the 70's, you would have perhaps noticed the infusion of Maine, Chi, Holstein, and whatever else might blood type Angus.  Have all those genetics been eliminated?  Judging from the number of genetic defects the Angus people are dealing with, I would bet not.  I have related the true story on here before about the half Maine-half Angus heifer that won her class at the Iowa State Fair in, I believe, 1976 when they had the Nat'l junior heifer show there.  She blood typed purebred Angus.  Upon delivery, I listened to the owner of the heifer ask the prominent buyer if they wanted the Angus or Maine pedigree.  They wanted both.  The buyer also had a pretty powerful show bull in their show string that later was found to carry a "hoof deformity gene."  I shall leave him nameless.  Do these same buyers inquire about the percentage of tainted blood in the Angus bull they buy?  Didn't the Herefords have some trouble in the late 80's-early 90's with a diluter gene that, surprise, surprise, came from Simmentals?   I suppose all these people asking about the background of your Shorthorn pedigrees are most happy to use BLACK Simmentals, Maines, Limmys, Chis, or RED Charolais with who knows what in their background.  When the Maines were included into the ASA herdbook, the information we had was that they were ABOVE 75% Shorthorn.  After two generations with purebreds, the resulting 15/16th calves were considered purebreds.  What's the actual purebred percentage of a black Simmental female?  The lack of knowledge in the cattle industry never ceases to amaze me.   

Offline 764wdchev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Karma 0
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2017, 12:46:58 PM »
I was young when the ASA opened up the books, and let Maines in. IMO I think it helped to improve the Shorthorn herd. I think it is very important to note that the ASA had a policy, and this helped to keep the records straight- or as straight as people wanted to be. Other than some Natives, and documented Fullblood herds, I would suggest you dig deep into your pedigrees. I think most people would be surprised as to what they find. I think this applies to all breeds.

We each have an ideal animal we are breeding for, how you do that is up to you- including how you document them. I learned a long time ago I was a bad liar, its easier to keep the truth straight.
If it was easy, everyone would succeed.

Offline -XBAR-

  • State Champion Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3154
  • Karma 144
  • SASKVALLEY ALAMO 8A
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2017, 02:48:57 PM »
If it wasn't so sad, it would be amusing when people complain about Maines crossed with Shorthorns.  At least we were above board and the Maines were actually identified on the pedigree.  I have no idea where you could find a real "purebred" Angus today.  If you were around in the 70's, you would have perhaps noticed the infusion of Maine, Chi, Holstein, and whatever else might blood type Angus.  Have all those genetics been eliminated?  Judging from the number of genetic defects the Angus people are dealing with, I would bet not.  I have related the true story on here before about the half Maine-half Angus heifer that won her class at the Iowa State Fair in, I believe, 1976 when they had the Nat'l junior heifer show there.  She blood typed purebred Angus.  Upon delivery, I listened to the owner of the heifer ask the prominent buyer if they wanted the Angus or Maine pedigree.  They wanted both.  The buyer also had a pretty powerful show bull in their show string that later was found to carry a "hoof deformity gene."  I shall leave him nameless.  Do these same buyers inquire about the percentage of tainted blood in the Angus bull they buy?  Didn't the Herefords have some trouble in the late 80's-early 90's with a diluter gene that, surprise, surprise, came from Simmentals?   I suppose all these people asking about the background of your Shorthorn pedigrees are most happy to use BLACK Simmentals, Maines, Limmys, Chis, or RED Charolais with who knows what in their background.  When the Maines were included into the ASA herdbook, the information we had was that they were ABOVE 75% Shorthorn.  After two generations with purebreds, the resulting 15/16th calves were considered purebreds.  What's the actual purebred percentage of a black Simmental female?  The lack of knowledge in the cattle industry never ceases to amaze me.

I don't think it's a purity issue so much as they are trying to avoid the excessive birthweights historically associated with full blood maine Anjou cattle.  Disastrous experiences with the Trump bred cattle have likely accentuated this disdain held for the 'Maine' influenced. 
The best cow is the cow that goes unnoticed the longest

Offline oakview

  • County Champion Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Karma 56
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2017, 03:20:57 PM »
Chev is correct.  Most people would be surprised what is truly in the background of their animals.  Unfortunately, too many don't know and even more don't care.  My thanks for repeating what I have said numerous times.  We're all free to raise what we want how we want to do it.  I was around when the continental breeds hit the U.S.  Excessive birth weights nearly killed all of them.  In high school ag class, when the Charolais were really the only non-British breed here, we were taught they had a lot to offer if you can only get the calves out alive.  We used some early Simmentals and Maines and those calves were much larger than what we had before.  You have to remember, though, 950 pound cows were very common at that time.  I have used the Trump influence for over 20 years and had no disastrous experiences.  I'm not doubting there have been some out there, but I have not had them.  I believe how they are handled (fitted for show, perhaps?) has great influence.  The only nearly disastrous experiences I've had have been with a Rider 844 son (negative BEPD) and the Sevilles, Dreamboats, etc. of the late 80's.

Online Medium Rare

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma 8
    • View Profile
Re: Old Maine Bulls
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2017, 03:53:48 PM »
It seems as though the breed was going to get the infusion of Maine blood one way or the other. I'd much rather see it on the paper instead of hidden under a "pure" shorthorn's name. I've sent Yukon semen along as the back up bull on a pair of IVF flushes now but haven't had the chance to use him yet. Hope to get him plugged into the right pedigree eventually to see if it works like I think it might.



Oakview, did my emails make it through to you a while back? Would still be interested in getting together on some of that semen one of these days.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2475 Views
Last post July 08, 2007, 02:05:46 PM
by justme
0 Replies
1630 Views
Last post March 06, 2011, 01:31:09 PM
by Smith
4 Replies
2187 Views
Last post December 06, 2014, 11:23:59 PM
by Sizzler14
21 Replies
7132 Views
Last post December 26, 2014, 08:10:09 AM
by HomeRaised
10 Replies
3690 Views
Last post May 18, 2017, 05:45:00 PM
by Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR


Please Support our Premium Sponsors

Powered by EzPortal