old shorthorn semen

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3 Eagles shorthorns

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I am new to shorthorn cattle, but ive recently purchased four bred SuperFlag heifers from Wally Klose in Twin Bridges Montana. I believe the heifers are bred to a grandson of Clifford King?? not sure on the name. Anyways when talking with Wally he stated to me that I should try to keep the old genetics going and keep breeding to the older bulls 4 Point major, leader 9, leader 6, Cumberland gay lad  and bulls like that. I was wondering if there is any semen left in the states from bulls like this? and what would be the cost?. Also I run straight black cattle with good angus/simmy genetics and was wonder if there is any kind of market for half blood blue roan bulls?
 

shortybreeder

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Half blood blue roan? Not really. Half blood black? Yes. As for the old semen, I'm still relatively new myself and have never seen semen on those bulls.
 

r.n.reed

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Welcome to the breed 3 EAGLES.I am surprised you are asking us for a source for that old semen as Wally Klose is probably the best place to start looking.He has the stuff and also knows who else does as well.Probably not telling you anything but do your homework there is quite a difference from one end to the other of the 4 bulls you mentioned.
 

Doc

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3 Eagles shorthorns said:
I am new to shorthorn cattle, but ive recently purchased four bred SuperFlag heifers from Wally Klose in Twin Bridges Montana. I believe the heifers are bred to a grandson of Clifford King?? not sure on the name. Anyways when talking with Wally he stated to me that I should try to keep the old genetics going and keep breeding to the older bulls 4 Point major, leader 9, leader 6, Cumberland gay lad  and bulls like that. I was wondering if there is any semen left in the states from bulls like this? and what would be the cost?. Also I run straight black cattle with good angus/simmy genetics and was wonder if there is any kind of market for half blood blue roan bulls?

That is probably Clipper King of USA. There is some of the old semen out there, with some hunting. Don't know what your goals are, but just like it is discussed in another thread just because they are old doesn't mean they will be good.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Probably one of the best "old blood' ez calving BUT THICK genetics bull calves to be born in years is in Iowa-he is owned by Oakview on here-and Oakview was around in the eras of  some of the bulls you have mentioned, and really knows how to breed cattle. Several other breeders 1 of whom is quite famous AND ALSO KNOWS these lines of cattle-and saw them in the day  think he's the best 'they have ever seen-So you might save some time-AND gain some needed thickness etc while maintaining old blood by investigating this shortcut. O0
 

Doc

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This is a Leader 21st dtr I sold Ohio Breeder. She is out of a dtr of Deerpark Leader out of the original Scarlet O'Hare cow. The one thing about a lot of these old genetics is that their EPD's stink. 21st for example is great on calving ease, then his YW nose dives from his WW. Milk isn't that great either.
 

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knabe

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one reason their epd's may stink is the lack of generations in the same environment with the inputs of today.


other than the negatives you cited and besides calving ease, what other merits do these cattle have?


how does one measure appetite of calves with the same milk production of cows, yet far different epd's?
 

mark tenenbaum

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Very well put-a less polite but more realistic view of certain breeds EPS is that they are slanted to the market popularity of the time-along with the politics of the Secretary etc. leader 21st was one of the very best of the British breeds for crossing on other cattle-ESPECIALLY MAINES regardless of thier breed:which is what commercially oriented cattle are supposed to do-the mouseys, baldies, chromes, blues etc are not test tube documented ,controlled enviroment, compartimentalized highly monitered subjects of magazine articles-they are the real article out in the field.-and I was lucky enough to see his last calf crop in Ireland (unless Quanes invented another Dividend) and they were out of 4 different breeds of cows.They all looked like him. All the Dividends ive seen have milked fine-and Docs cow pictured surely must be able to raise a calf from looking at the picture.It would be hard to find Dividend semen-Id use him in a minute- O0
 

Doc

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This one is out of a dtr of the original Leader bull. Her mother had an awesome udder on her. As far as Dividend goes , I have about 14 straws of semen on him. I had a really good Irish Mist dtr of this Leader cow that I flushed to Ballyart Vantage and still have a few eggs.
 

3 Eagles shorthorns

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I have some leader 9 semen, and me and Wally have become good friends so we're looking for for more semen together. We found some in Canada but no way of getting down here. I have hopes of being able to sell some bulls someday but as for now my focus will be and making the best cows I can.
 

3 Eagles shorthorns

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To be completely honest I've spent a lot of time looking at shorthorn sires old pictures and new and one of the things that concerns me, is that while looking through other breeds angus, simmy, and even a few Herefords I find myself thinking man I wish I owned that bull. I Like thick deep bodied cattle. With that being said there are very few shorthorn sires that I looked at and think man I wished I owned that bull.
 

sue

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More and more  often old semen is offered in consignment sales. Contact the shorthorn country to become apart of the mailing list or visit the web page at shorthorn association.
  Nearly everyone in the breed is or has used a son of a "old bull" and semen is available on those bulls as well - Galbreath Farms has a fella, Ralph promoted Coalpit Leader . The sons usually have all dna recorded and will make your life easier at the time of registration.  Purchasing the old stuff w/o dna will requiring additional sample and about $90.  My parents raised shorthorns in this "primo" era and we have talked often about the lack of milk and calving interval in this time period. "everyone had nurse cows" according to my parents. The heavy condition in the photos might be because they calved every 440 days and did not milk well?  To each it's own and best of luck.
 

justintime

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Does anyone know if Clipper King of USA has ever been tested for TH? I have been told that his sire Clipper King of Bapton was a TH carrier, however, it does not show this on the ASA website.  Clipper King of Bapton came along long before Deerpark Improver and I have my own theory about what may have happened in this case.
When Dr Beever was originally researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, we had a few phone conversations about it, and in one conversation he said that it was interesting that the TH defect in Shorthorns was exactly the same defect that the Galloway breed had in the 50s. The Galloway breed took a completely different approach to the defect and totally eradicated every animal that had it. Dr. Beever said it is possible that a genetic mutation exactly the same could happen in another breed but it would be a rare occurrence. He then asked me if I knew any more of the background to the pedigree of Deerpark Improver?  I related a conversation I had with Kevin Culhane from Ireland in which we were discussing the Irish cattle and I asked him about the sire of Improver who was a bull named Clare Man. There was no pedigree behind Clare Man, so I asked him if he knew where he was bred. He said that after several decades of having a closed herd, the Quane Bros. of Deerpark decided they would bring in a bull from outside their herd. They found Clare Man at a local auction market and seeing that he was solid red, they purchased him. At that point, Dr Beever stopped me, and he said... and I will almost guarantee it that Clare Man was part Galloway breeding. He said that was one of the first things that made any sense to him regarding this defect.
In regards to Clipper King of Bapton, it is interesting that he was bred in the Bapton herd who also raised purebred Galloways as well as Shorthorns. I also remember when Clipper King of Bapton was imported into the US, I was told that he was different than any Shorthorn sire at the time. I also remember people saying he had hair like a muskox. This makes me a bit suspicious of his real heritage!
I also will mention that I had the opportunity to have a great visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie in Scotland four years ago, and it was a visit I will remember for the rest of my life. Even though they were well into their 80s, they had amazing memories of virtually any animal they had ever seen. Donald McGillvary made the comment that he was very suspicious of heritage of many of the polled Shorthorns that started to appear in the 50s. He said there were some breeders in that day, that would do most anything to get ahead or win ( sounds almost like today!) and he said some of the polled animals that started to appear in significant numbers were much different in appearance than their horned brothers, sisters and cousins. He also made the comment that many of the polled cattle came from herds that had purebred herds of a polled breed besides their Shorthorn herds. Of course, there is no way to be sure of any of this, but it does raise a slight question about the purity of any breed. For me, this is not of any concern. In my opinion, we cannot change the past so we should just worry about what we are doing today and try to produce the best beef animals we can that can add improvement to the industry. Today, we have far more ways to "police" our gene poolespecially in the breeds that demand DNA profiles on all sires that have progeny to be registered as well as parentage testing of any ET calves.
 

Shorthorns4us

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Welcome 3 Eagles:

I am going to start with a shameless self promotion-- LOL  ;)
I have a son of TPS Coronet Leader 21st.  His mother is Shadybrook Presto 73
I would love to connect with you if you are interested in semen.  He has been DNA tested and everything is on record. 
I have been getting great calves from him for several years now. 

I know that a lot of the Leader lines trace back to Leader 21st. 
Thanks!
Emily

 

mark tenenbaum

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Thats a real good pedigree-and one of the best cows JIT had that I am aware of over the last 10 years. The people responding have ALOT of experience with the older breeding like: Sue, DOC,JIT, Oakview, and others in north Dakota, Minn, PA, Montana etc.. They saw the originals, and the not allways improved cattle before the Irish and dual cattle-through various gyrationstill today. I really think the general consenus is that the ones today have alot more to offer as a combo than alot of the "originals'. Alot of needed bases are covered by combining the old and new. if you want to actually sell bulls-you might consider this and look at the difference. TODAY-some of  the most usefull and hi percentage"old" breeding Ive seen available-with cattle that work today-are Gary Caper's: RN REED on here. O0
 

librarian

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it is interesting that he was bred in the Bapton herd who also raised purebred Galloways as well as Shorthorns--JIT
I didn't know this, but it sure connects a lot of dots.
I was just looking at a picture of Clipper King of Bapton the other day and thought to myself, yup, part Galloway.
Not to be chauvinist, but Galloway bulls are very determined breeders from what I've seen.
Especially at very young ages when one would think they are harmless. During WWII a lot of blue blooded Shorthorn herds from England got evacuated to the northern countryside to rough it during the war. I imagine more than one Galloway bull jumped the fence during those years.
 

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Okotoks

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librarian said:
it is interesting that he was bred in the Bapton herd who also raised purebred Galloways as well as Shorthorns--JIT
I didn't know this, but it sure connects a lot of dots.
I was just looking at a picture of Clipper King of Bapton the other day and thought to myself, yup, part Galloway.
Not to be chauvinist, but Galloway bulls are very determined breeders from what I've seen.
Especially at very young ages when one would think they are harmless. During WWII a lot of blue blooded Shorthorn herds from England got evacuated to the northern countryside to rough it during the war. I imagine more than one Galloway bull jumped the fence during those years.
I don't think he has an unusual look for his time but he was very large for his breeding. I think he predates the Maine Anjou imports into Britain, plus he didn't really pass his size on. However he is the sire of Clipper King of USA a bull that unexpectedly tested as a TH carrier years after he was used and prior the the arrival of Deerpark Improver.....
That said I just checked Clipper King of USA and the ASA does not list him as a TH carrier but they also list one of our new breeders in Alberta as the breeder of Clipper King of USA and he was born 50 plus years ago. I think there must be some bugs in the new system but how they will find errors like this I have no idea.
 

oakview

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I remember seeing some time ago that Clipper King of USA had been tested THC.  I don't see it on the ASA's pedigree of him now, though.  CK of Bapton is closely related on his top side to Leader 21, Max Leader 3rd and Lawton Priam certainly don't appear to be big.  However, since Leader 21 was somewhat of a freak of his genetics, maybe there were some larger genetics in there somewhere. 

Back in the 70's, we had a son of Mandalong Super Flag, Super Flag Goliath x3647443.  I didn't care for the bull, but Dad liked him so he bought him.  I was not happy when his bull got out and bred one of my cows.  We also bought Weston Garrison x3639601 from KaDel Urice after he was done with him.  He was a son of Weston Goliath, shown to be a son of Shadybrook Goliath 68th and FA Countess 114 D on his pedigree.  The dam of Garrison was a daughter of Weston Shamrock, rumored to be a dual purpose Shorthorn.  I didn't care for Garrison, either, but of course I was a pretty smart 20 year old at the time and had just won the Iowa and Minnesota State Fair beef shows with a dual purpose bull I had purchased named Justamere Todd.  Hard to believe how smart we were when we were in our 20's.  My uncle told me once that the dumbest person on the earth to a 20 year old boy is his dad.  Takes a few years to figure out maybe they weren't so dumb after all.  (I still don't like the Super Flag son, but I could live with Garrison.) 
 

Okotoks

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oakview said:
I remember seeing some time ago that Clipper King of USA had been tested THC.  I don't see it on the ASA's pedigree of him now, though.  CK of Bapton is closely related on his top side to Leader 21, Max Leader 3rd and Lawton Priam certainly don't appear to be big.  However, since Leader 21 was somewhat of a freak of his genetics, maybe there were some larger genetics in there somewhere. 

Back in the 70's, we had a son of Mandalong Super Flag, Super Flag Goliath x3647443.  I didn't care for the bull, but Dad liked him so he bought him.  I was not happy when his bull got out and bred one of my cows.  We also bought Weston Garrison x3639601 from KaDel Urice after he was done with him.  He was a son of Weston Goliath, shown to be a son of Shadybrook Goliath 68th and FA Countess 114 D on his pedigree.  The dam of Garrison was a daughter of Weston Shamrock, rumored to be a dual purpose Shorthorn.  I didn't care for Garrison, either, but of course I was a pretty smart 20 year old at the time and had just won the Iowa and Minnesota State Fair beef shows with a dual purpose bull I had purchased named Justamere Todd.  Hard to believe how smart we were when we were in our 20's.  My uncle told me once that the dumbest person on the earth to a 20 year old boy is his dad.  Takes a few years to figure out maybe they weren't so dumb after all.  (I still don't like the Super Flag son, but I could live with Garrison.)
Strange but on Weston Goliath they show orange TH and PHA meaning he has a confirmed carriers in his pedigree which seems highly unlikely and there are no animals showing as carriers in the back ground. Is the system showing a lot of these errors?
 
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