Opinions on Angus bull type

Hi Folks,
This is an Angus bull that I am using in my blue roan project. I have some blue roan heifers bred to him, some white Galloway heifers and some Black Galloway heifers.  I'm not trying to make roans with him, just an Angus cross to put a Shorthorn bull back onto. The goal is fitness for forage only production.
His registration number is AAA #16935504.
I have mixed feelings about the functionality of this bull and wondered if anyone had an opinion to share about phenotype or breeding.
Thanks.

You will find the wye bred cattle easy doing, fleshing ability good, kind of hard to find a place where they work consistently. Tend not to get very big, might be a bit less than desirable in the front ends.
The emulation 31 might be the good or bad of the deal.  Yes I know he is in he pedigree of a lot of cattle, but he was a man eater. Females were really good but attitude was still a drawback. He was also on the edge of being one nutted. If your roans are a little more elongated you will probably be ok.

The top goes back to columbus of wye, there were some good females out of him way back.

isn't 31 back there far enough?  i didn't see him up to 5 back?

get some goose fronted choke throated low % Hw's and use him.

would like to see him with his cannon bone a little more rearward.

would be interesting to see the rear leg structure of him, who he's bred to and calves.

I think maybe Mr. Cowman 52 misread Emblazon.  But the 1019 cow does go to Emulous breeding eventually. (Guess that's why they named him Emblazon)
I have been around several cows that go to Emulation 31 and I guess you can breed that nastiness out of them if you work on it because these were very calm. I have one that is an E31 grand daughter and she is fine.  Her bull calf is fine too, but they are Wye on top.  But I always do hear E31 is bad for disposition, so it must be true, generally.

I was 1 number off in my search,  emblazon was tim' s name on the bull,  your bull goes deep back to Viking, good females, a touch large, but usable. There will be some white pop up out of them, might help your roan deal.

Without knowing anything about angus pedigrees I will say he's a damn good looking bull. I appreciate his volume, sogginess and apparent thickness.
I am not a fan of angus cattle in general but, I like this fella! I bet he would make some awesome calves crossed with chars or other large framed breeds.
Nice bull!

Thanks. For the record, the bull now belongs to my neighbor. Here is a picture of a nice bull calf that my neighbor got out of him on a commercial heifer. Which maybe gets at my question. Even though the Winchester bull is a cross of 3 line bred strains, each of those strains has maternal strength so I figured he would pass that on one way or another.  When I look at him, though, I do not see what I think of as maternal traits.  He looks kind of like a terminal sire that would make muscular calves with lots of hybrid vigor.  Maybe that's just what you get when you stir all these lines together.

Here is a picture of a straight Wye bull, Reg: AAA 1681397, that does look maternal to me and I am keeping his son rather than going on with Winchester.
My question is what can a more practised eye can see going on structurally in Winchester? I sense something, but I can't name it. Maybe it is the legs, as suggested. I'm asking because I have all those heifers bred to him.

put that rear end from winchester on the bottom bull and you have something.  the bottom bull if you hid his front looks like a female.  does he have marbling numbers?

librarian said:

AAA 1681397,

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that's not the right reg #.  the reg number you listed is Glengarry Entangle born in 1952

#16813977   
Sorry about that. Seems like cut and paste would be infallible..makes you wonder.
No, there are no marbling numbers and this is a sort of problem I have with the Wye cattle.  There were a few that were certified beef sires, like Bonanza of Wye.
In general, the lines descended from Conan are strong on muscle and those descended from Fabron are strong on maternal.  The Shoshone breeding in Winchester is from the maternal "yellow" line that goes to Fabron umpteen times thru Beauigan.  If you study the breeding on Shoshone Viking, Reg: AAA #8805991,  you can see how much Fabron is in there.
BUT, you never hear much about carcass quality. There was ultrasound on the animals in the Diamond D Angus sale in Montana and it seemed like the highest  IMF was in the animals that went to Lodge.
To your point about Falgun, yes has not much going on in the rear end. For this reason the owner sold him cheap and moved on, but I have seen pictures of famous maternal bulls built like that--like the ones below.
Then look at the butt on Emblazon, Reg: AAA #+12514348, and see how much of that wimpy looking F0203 bull is in there.
Anyway, this is why I have such mixed feelings.

knabe said:

put that rear end from winchester on the bottom bull and you have something.  the bottom bull if you hid his front looks like a female.  does he have marbling numbers?

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That is the phenotype of an animal that excels in a low input system.  Muscle is the culprit of hard-doing'ness'. The bull looks fairly masculine to me.  You have to remember, it took cattle like these to permit the continental invasion.

All fat and no calf growth is hard doing to me.

So would you put Leroy's rear on that bull?

Waygu's have the same butt and they appear to be hard doing.

I do understand you like the narrow hips on bulls and the opposite triangles.

Librarian,
Since you asked, I'll take a stab at your bull.  I think he shows plenty of volume and muscle expression.  My biggest concerns would be that he looks quite compact; short in the skull, neck, and spine.  As for structure, it appears that he is too straight in his hind leg.

With all that being said, if you pictured him with his head up and back legs streched out a little, he may appear completely different.

Thought that it would be fun to throw Sinclair's bull line up, up here. They are developing genetic lines that are geared towards lower input / grass fed type of cattle. Link below.


http://www.sinclaircattle.com/archives/bullsale/2013-SireDirectory.pdf

Most of the cattle in that catalog have far too much performance to be sustainable in, what I consider, a low input / grass fed system.  Look at those N Bar females pictures throughout the catalog- those are 1500+lb cows! 

It's all about phenotype.  That short compact look excels the best in a grass fed system.  The more extension, the more muscle, the more... you add, the more inputs required. 

I would agree about the compactness. I have some other pictures, but not here.
But, to the low-input point. I have noticed that 3 or the all stars of grass-fed genetics all have very similar body types.
Embalzon, Pinebank Waigroup 41/97, and Gaird of Dalmeny.
When Wye cattle are line bred to Fabron, reallly they are line bred to Gaird, "the great cow maker"
The Columbus bull mentioned earlier is full of Gaird, and the Manning bull in Winchester's top side is a double Fabron.
But in the sons etc, where does that big gut go? I am having difficulty reconciling the low-input need for a big gut with the Bonsma ideal for bull phenotype.
Rito 707 is famous for muscle and he looks a lot like Fabron to me.
707 is the sire of the "wimpy" F0203 bull that is a great cow maker.
707 is also the sire of 6807.  6807 is the sire of Emblazon.
6807 looks a lot like Manning to me.

and here is 41/97

Personally I really like the type of the bull. I like the depth of rib and masculinity he shows. I don't think he is too compact at all, and don't think he looks that short necked, just masculine. If you took some weight off of him he would't look so compact. This is what a production type bull should look like; maybe not showy but should make productive females. Rear leg does look a little posty, but if you want an honest evaluation of the bull a video would do wonders; much better than one pic.

Of the bulls pictured, I know I like the 6807 the best.

"Bonsma ideal for bull phenotype"  please elaborate?

i place this class 5,1,3,4,2